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Is anyone else skeptical of drafting an NT high?

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Yet that is not what you're getting out of Justin, who has been able to rush the passer. A standard 5 technique isn't going to give you much more than RJF. You NEED a guy with pass-rush ability and you're not getting that from any of the top 3-4 DE prospects this year aside from Richardson.


If you're going to draft a guy to develop to stop the run and play the 5 technique, you might as well wait until the 4th round and take Steinkuhler, he has a good motor, can stop the run, can't rush the passer either but he won't cost you a 1st round for a developmental prospect.

Cowboy switches back and forth from a 5 technique to a 3. It's devastating. It's elite.

Ngata can play 0, 3, and 5.

JJ Watt plays a 3 and 5, but usually the 3. But his 3 tech is absurdly good, especially considering that he is a converted tight end
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
And the defense will look much as it did against Seattle. You don't have to double-team Ray McDonald, Aldon Smith doesn't get any bonus as a result of playing next to a Ray McDonald, your defense isn't awe-inspiring or dominant with another Ray McDonald. Without Justin Smith, this is a good, but not great defense, without that intense motor and pass-rush coming from his spot, without teams having to double team that spot, this defense is a hell of a lot less threatening.

Without a Justin Smith, the pass rush is mostly non-existent, teams can man up on Aldon, so basically you're going to wind up with a mediocre NT and two average DE's, meaning you'd better have some damn good CB's because otherwise you're going to get lit up.

For the record, Floyd is a better prospect then McDonald was.

And secondly, McD is better than RJF. RJF had a poor game vs SEA.

and finally, they'd all be fresh. We don't rotate very much
Also, note that the focii of our defense is the ILBs, both all pros, and to a lesser extent the safeties, which are both pro bowlers.

There are a lot of things we can do that confuses defenses
Originally posted by nickbradley:
For the record, Floyd is a better prospect then McDonald was.

And secondly, McD is better than RJF. RJF had a poor game vs SEA.

and finally, they'd all be fresh. We don't rotate very much

As a 4-3 DT, I agree. I see Floyd as far better suited to playing inside at the pro-level.


The point is, you need someone who can rush the passer, without that, you're not getting the same thing as from Justin, its his ability to penetrate and attack, his explosion that requires teams to double-team him, take that away and you lose the mismatch and allow teams to play you straight up.


I don't see a single potential 3-4 DE with the same ability other than possibly Margus Hunt. If you absolutely MUST, HAVE TO, take a 3-4 DE in this draft, get Steinkuhler, develop him and rotate him in, he's got a very good motor and can be a solid sub guy.

The other possibility are guys like Ansah that have the ability to add weight to their frames and grow into being a true 3-4 DE.
Originally posted by nickbradley:
Also, note that the focii of our defense is the ILBs, both all pros, and to a lesser extent the safeties, which are both pro bowlers.

There are a lot of things we can do that confuses defenses

And quality DL play improves everything else on the defense. Having a quality NT makes your linebackers that much MORE effective, it allows you to gamble more, blitz more...etc, you can really overwhelm teams, especially if you have an NT and a guy like Justin Smith that both essentially require double-teams.
Originally posted by buck:
Bass is 6-3 262 is a little small to play 3-4 DE. He might be a good pick for OLB,

Catapano is a little heavier, 270 pounds, but still a bit small.

Yea that's there only downside to playing 3-4 DE still wouldn't mind taking a crack , who knows. Can always swing them over to olb , harbaugh seems to like converting people to different positions.

Rather take an eager guy to learn in the 3rd or 4th than someone with our 1st. By the time we pick the upper echelon of DE will be gone , unless we take Floyd and develop him , which I don't mind but where we are picking were gonna be waiting on development either way.

So would much rather take an impact player , who can contribute straight away with the 1st , like NT or depending on what happens with goldson etc
If you're going to make the case for a nose tackle don't tell me that Ngata and Wilfork are good I already know that, you have to make the case that John Jenkins or insert available pick has the ability to be a dominant nose tackle.

Nose tackle is not a position were you're going to find a stud every single year. I'm not going to use a 1st rounder on someone just because he's 6'3 340. History says 3-4 nose tackles can be delevoped as well.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
If you're going to make the case for a nose tackle don't tell me that Ngata and Wilfork are good I already know that, you have to make the case that John Jenkins or insert available pick has the ability to be a dominant nose tackle.

Nose tackle is not a position were you're going to find a stud every single year. I'm not going to use a 1st rounder on someone just because he's 6'3 340. History says 3-4 nose tackles can be delevoped as well.

+++
Originally posted by tjd808185:
If you're going to make the case for a nose tackle don't tell me that Ngata and Wilfork are good I already know that, you have to make the case that John Jenkins or insert available pick has the ability to be a dominant nose tackle.

Nose tackle is not a position were you're going to find a stud every single year. I'm not going to use a 1st rounder on someone just because he's 6'3 340. History says 3-4 nose tackles can be delevoped as well.

Funny because that's the exact same logic most are using for drafting a 3-4 DE.


"Justin Smith is very good, he got injured, we need to draft a 3-4 DE who will also be very good." It really works both ways, I'm not seeing ANY case made for guys like Floyd. I've already made my case for Jenkins and Williams in multiple threads, I think they both have significant upsides bring strong benefits to the table. I think either guy is ready to start from Day 1, which is yet one more differentiation from taking a backup 3-4 DE whose ceiling is basically....Ray McDonald.

If you disagree, make the case for why Floyd will be a dominant 3-4 end that will replace Justin Smith in 2-3 years, don't just talk about it.


There's going to be a hole at NT if Soap isn't resigned, there won't be a hole at 3-4 DE, sell me on what is so amazing about some of these prospects because I'm not seeing it, I see a bunch of guys like Short and Floyd who are essentially best suited as 4-3 DT's.
[ Edited by Phoenix49ers on Jan 19, 2013 at 4:15 PM ]
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Funny because that's the exact same logic most are using for drafting a 3-4 DE.


"Justin Smith is very good, he got injured, we need to draft a 3-4 DE who will also be very good." It really works both ways, I'm not seeing ANY case made for guys like Floyd. I've already made my case for Jenkins and Williams in multiple threads, I think they both have significant upsides bring strong benefits to the table. I think either guy is ready to start from Day 1, which is yet one more differentiation from taking a backup 3-4 DE whose ceiling is basically....Ray McDonald.

If you disagree, make the case for why Floyd will be a dominant 3-4 end that will replace Justin Smith in 2-3 years, don't just talk about it.


There's going to be a hole at NT if Soap isn't resigned, there won't be a hole at 3-4 DE, sell me on what is so amazing about some of these prospects because I'm not seeing it, I see a bunch of guys like Short and Floyd who are essentially best suited as 4-3 DT's.

I don't ever recall making the case for a defensive end. The thread is about selecting a nose tackle yet I really see very little about the prospects in it. As far as your point goes I agree with you on this one. Most of the people in favor of selecting a 3-4 defensive end aren't really looking at the prospects but more so the work Smith or Watt has done for their teams.

I will add this in. We're going to have some serious cap issues going forward and I wouldn't be surprised if Justin Smith is not in the long term plans. I'm not against taking a 3-4 defensive end or nose tackle but really it comes down to the prospect.
[ Edited by tjd808185 on Jan 19, 2013 at 5:16 PM ]
Originally posted by tjd808185:
I don't ever recall making the case for a defensive end. The thread is about selecting a nose tackle yet I really see very little about the prospects in it. As far as your point goes I agree with you on this one. Most of the people in favor of selecting a 3-4 defensive end aren't really looking at the prospects but more so the work Smith or Watt has done for their teams.

I will add this in. We're going to have some serious cap issues going forward and I wouldn't be surprised if Justin Smith is not in the long term plans. I'm not against taking a 3-4 defensive end or nose tackle but really it comes down to the prospect.

Shoulda taken one last year when they were growing on trees...
Even if we do resign Sopo how long is he going to last really? I mean already this year there's been a drop off. He's not going to find the fountain of youth between now and then. To be honest the guy that said were going to take a safety is probably right but for the sake of debate I like this discussion.

Lets look at the depth chart.

NT - Sopoago, Ian Williams
DE - Justin Smith, Mcdonald, RJF

Evaluate the talent at those positions.

DE tackles - 113
Originally posted by nickbradley:
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Yeup and imagine if we had a good NT next to Justin. Power RBs are running inside on us pretty effectively - and we don't want a NT? To me, it makes no sense at all. The way we have really dominated pass first team is by making them pass-only teams. If we stop the run against Seattle and Rams - they have no chance.

I'd rather orient my team to stop emerging threats

You are right on emerging threats. The Niners have to have a defense that can stop a Russell Wilson / RG III type QB and an offense to handle the tough defenses of the Seahawks, Rams etc.
Originally posted by nickbradley:
Shoulda taken one last year when they were growing on trees...

Wolfe or Reyes were both perfect fits for this team. I was big on the Fleener bandwagon but would have been happy with either of those guys, especially liked Reyes but both guys had perfect size, good athleticism, great motors....etc.

What I don't want to see is another project drafted in the 1st round, another guy that spends most of the season on the bench. I'd rather the team drop the 1st on a cornerback or other player that will actually contribute right off the bat. That is one more reason why I'm so big on drafting an NT, its a position of need and a position where someone can come in and contribute immediately.


I haven't seen anything from RJF or Ian Williams that suggests either guy can come in, start as the NT and do well at the most crucial position in a 3-4 defense.
[ Edited by Phoenix49ers on Jan 19, 2013 at 5:46 PM ]
  • MarkD
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 1,086
If its a Bryant Young (YES) then draft high. If its a Suh then (HELL NO)
[ Edited by MarkD on Jan 19, 2013 at 6:02 PM ]
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