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Were at 30, and Stephen Hill and Fleener are on the board

Were at 30, and Stephen Hill and Fleener are on the board

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
I told you, people seem to think that we will/can feature (start) two TE's. NE used two TE's because they lacked a real WR threat, and, like the 49ers, were blessed with creative coaching to hide their WR weakness. This starting two TE's "nightmare" isn't going to happen. You can run that at Stanford against college talent and get away with it. But we are talking about the NFL.



Why would we want to recreate a scheme that clearly couldn't get it done in the SB (not saying that we should be like NY)? People are talking about NE's two TE thing as if they beat the world with it. I don't see it happening because NFL defenses are too sophisticated for that to be successful, especially if you don't have a threat at WR.

For a long time I have been making the same point as jreff22 has been making: 1st). In the 1st round teams draft for for players who will either start right away, or at least by year two. And 2nd). The rules say you can only field 11 guys, so if we feature 2 TE's the question begs, who comes off the field, a WR or the FB? By default teams field 5 lineman, 2 WR's, 2 backs (RB, FB), and one TE. Do we take Crabs or Moss off? Do we take our FB star Miller off and go single-back sets, despite the fact that Gore thrives with a FB? This is the problem with drafting an un-needed position in the first, especially on a team like the 49ers that already have one of the top 2 or 3 TE's in the league.

Now, I have been accused of lacking an "Imagination" because of my opposition to taking Fleener in the first. I know one thing though: As critical as I've been of the Moss signing I know we signed him mainly for one reason, and that's to stretch the defense. Though I'm not a fan of Crabs, just the sight of Crabs and Moss - no to mention Gore - on the field at the same time by itself changes the look of a defense. Finally, just the mere thought of Jim and Trent trying to bring in Manning indicates that they don't intend for this offense to toss 25 or 30 passes to a bunch of TE's running seam routes, drags, or out routes all game, not with Moss and Crabs on the roster (and whatever WR they bring in). I just don't see this 2 TE thing coming to San Fran. anytime soon.

LOL Gronkowski got hurt and was playing at 50% during the Super Bowl. Tom Brady's primary weapon.

If Victor Cruz got hurt for New York it's different ballgame too. Injuries can derail any offense.
Originally posted by jreff22:
Explain how you have this insight? We have 3 WR's on the roster as of now, we have 3 TE's on the roster as of now. Hill can pretty much get playing time by default at this point.


Originally posted by jreff22:
Because we are not NE, we don't have Brady and a slew of WR's that get open all day. Brady is running from the shotgun with all day to throw and guys get open. The separation issue at WR was a problem we can all agree with. To run that system you have to have the full package...not just 2 TE's. Williams doesn't worry people, Moss we have no idea what he will do, and Crabs is just Crabs. I think we are skipping piece A and B and going right to C and expecting it to work. And adding depth in FA isn't a lock...look at last year. The depth we brought in was worthless. I understand what you want to build but I don't think we are at the point to transition into that style of play.
We ran 2 tight ends for a majority of the time last year and that same argument can be said about getting the ball to receivers. So unless Hill emerges as the number 1 he's not going to get a slew of opportunities because our lack of an offense doesn't allow for it.

Best case scenario this year he's our number 3 and that's pretty irrelvant in our offense. That's 20 catches on the year for us. Same production Delanie got.

New England doesn't have the full package either. You're severly overrating their supporting cast. Wes Welker is a unique receiver but that's it. Deion Branch is not that good. I'd put him on the same level as Josh Morgan.

The other problem is you're trying to force A and B. If the right receiver is there you take him but it's gotta to be the right guy because history shows that receivers are the easiest to bust on. You look at Green Bay, Pittsburgh they do just fine building an offense around mid round receivers. Don't assume you have to grab one in the 1st.

I have nothing against taking Hill if we're projecting him to be a starting receiver but I don't see your argument against taking Fleener.
[ Edited by tjd808185 on Mar 17, 2012 at 6:12 PM ]
Originally posted by jreff22:
we played 2 playoff games and he did s**t in both of them

Garcon and Wayne both posted 950+ this year with Painter....its not always the QB

You do realize you're judging him on 2 games right? The first 2 playoff games of his career. I agree with you that we badly need WRs, but you want to get rid of Crabtree, a very talented WR who has shown progression, because of 2 games? Delusional.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
I told you, people seem to think that we will/can feature (start) two TE's. NE used two TE's because they lacked a real WR threat, and, like the 49ers, were blessed with creative coaching to hide their WR weakness. This starting two TE's "nightmare" isn't going to happen. You can run that at Stanford against college talent and get away with it. But we are talking about the NFL.



Why would we want to recreate a scheme that clearly couldn't get it done in the SB (not saying that we should be like NY)? People are talking about NE's two TE thing as if they beat the world with it. I don't see it happening because NFL defenses are too sophisticated for that to be successful, especially if you don't have a threat at WR.

For a long time I have been making the same point as jreff22 has been making: 1st). In the 1st round teams draft for for players who will either start right away, or at least by year two. And 2nd). The rules say you can only field 11 guys, so if we feature 2 TE's the question begs, who comes off the field, a WR or the FB? By default teams field 5 lineman, 2 WR's, 2 backs (RB, FB), and one TE. Do we take Crabs or Moss off? Do we take our FB star Miller off and go single-back sets, despite the fact that Gore thrives with a FB? This is the problem with drafting an un-needed position in the first, especially on a team like the 49ers that already have one of the top 2 or 3 TE's in the league.

Now, I have been accused of lacking an "Imagination" because of my opposition to taking Fleener in the first. I know one thing though: As critical as I've been of the Moss signing I know we signed him mainly for one reason, and that's to stretch the defense. Though I'm not a fan of Crabs, just the sight of Crabs and Moss - no to mention Gore - on the field at the same time by itself changes the look of a defense. Finally, just the mere thought of Jim and Trent trying to bring in Manning indicates that they don't intend for this offense to toss 25 or 30 passes to a bunch of TE's running seam routes, drags, or out routes all game, not with Moss and Crabs on the roster (and whatever WR they bring in). I just don't see this 2 TE thing coming to San Fran. anytime soon.

LOL Gronkowski got hurt and was playing at 50% during the Super Bowl. Tom Brady's primary weapon.

If Victor Cruz got hurt for New York it's different ballgame too. Injuries can derail any offense.
This. And didn't New England draft Gronk and Hernandez in the same draft in the 2nd round? That would suggest that Billicheck planned on the 2 TE monster that they run.


Originally posted by tjd808185:
We ran 2 tight ends for a majority of the time last year and that same argument can be said about getting the ball to receivers. So unless Hill emerges as the number 1 he's not going to get a slew of opportunities because our lack of an offense doesn't allow for it.

Best case scenario this year he's our number 3 and that's pretty irrelvant in our offense. That's 20 catches on the year for us. Same production Delanie got.

New England doesn't have the full package either. You're severly overrating their supporting cast. Wes Welker is a unique receiver but that's it. Deion Branch is not that good. I'd put him on the same level as Josh Morgan.

The other problem is you're trying to force A and B. If the right receiver is there you take him but it's gotta to be the right guy because history shows that receivers are the easiest to bust on. You look at Green Bay, Pittsburgh they do just fine building an offense around mid round receivers. Don't assume you have to grab one in the 1st.

I have nothing against taking Hill if we're projecting him to be a starting receiver but I don't see your argument against taking Fleener.
And This. If Hill is the right WR then he will be great but who knows. If they don't go with Fleener it's fine but I think Harbaugh will see that Delanie will have to be replaced because he isn't a threat and yet he needs to be on the field for our 2 TE sets.


Originally posted by mkary12:
Originally posted by jreff22:
we played 2 playoff games and he did s**t in both of them

Garcon and Wayne both posted 950+ this year with Painter....its not always the QB

You do realize you're judging him on 2 games right? The first 2 playoff games of his career. I agree with you that we badly need WRs, but you want to get rid of Crabtree, a very talented WR who has shown progression, because of 2 games? Delusional.

And also This! We played 2 games. Crabs caught a Td but yeah he didn't play his best. For some reason the zone wants to get rid of any player that has a bad game. Crabtree in the playoffs, Kyle williams for his fumble, Nate Clements when he fumbled in Atlanta, etc...

No one seems to remember Delanie's fumble in the redzone when we played the Saints 2 years ago...(I think it was MNF). That game went to the wire and we could have used the 7 points?
Point being, who cares! If they played like that all the time then get them off the team, but they don't...
[ Edited by jacklegniner on Mar 17, 2012 at 7:24 PM ]
Originally posted by jreff22:
Have fun getting banned..

and by the way
Michael Crabtree
2012: $3.5 million

Josh Morgan
2012: $6.0 million

Crabs deal is worth (up to) 3x as much.

You say stuff about Crabtree that only HE would know, yet you act like it's fact. It's certain he won't be back? How the hell do you know?

And WTF has been lack luster about his performance? He's our most aggressive blocker (out of the WR's). He gets open all the time. He's gotten better every year. We run a lot and have Alex Smith. The exact same Michael Crabtree of last year would have put up much better stats with a different QB and offensive philosophy. Does that matter to you?

Do you think Wes Welker puts up huge stats in SF? Pierre Garcon? Do you think Randy Moss is gona put up 20+ TD's?

It just boggles my mind you could have 20,000+ posts on a forum about football and be so clueless about it.
Blackmon and Hill are the only two WR I would take over Fleener. Hill is probably a top 20 pick though.
Originally posted by mkary12:
Originally posted by jreff22:
we played 2 playoff games and he did s**t in both of them

Garcon and Wayne both posted 950+ this year with Painter....its not always the QB

You do realize you're judging him on 2 games right? The first 2 playoff games of his career. I agree with you that we badly need WRs, but you want to get rid of Crabtree, a very talented WR who has shown progression, because of 2 games? Delusional.

Great players show up in the hardest games...he should of stayed home.
Originally posted by Engleburger:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Have fun getting banned..

and by the way
Michael Crabtree
2012: $3.5 million

Josh Morgan
2012: $6.0 million

Crabs deal is worth (up to) 3x as much.

You say stuff about Crabtree that only HE would know, yet you act like it's fact. It's certain he won't be back? How the hell do you know?

And WTF has been lack luster about his performance? He's our most aggressive blocker (out of the WR's). He gets open all the time. He's gotten better every year. We run a lot and have Alex Smith. The exact same Michael Crabtree of last year would have put up much better stats with a different QB and offensive philosophy. Does that matter to you?

Do you think Wes Welker puts up huge stats in SF? Pierre Garcon? Do you think Randy Moss is gona put up 20+ TD's?

It just boggles my mind you could have 20,000+ posts on a forum about football and be so clueless about it.

Under current paychecks Morgan is making more, which means when Crab gets a new contract it will be for more. Look for him to try for a 8-10mill per deal. Gets open all the time...are you serious

I can find WR's with worse QB's and systems who do more. He is mediocre at best and will be overshadowed this year.
Originally posted by jreff22:
Under current paychecks Morgan is making more, which means when Crab gets a new contract it will be for more. Look for him to try for a 8-10mill per deal. Gets open all the time...are you serious

I can find WR's with worse QB's and systems who do more. He is mediocre at best and will be overshadowed this year.
I agree with you in this aspect. If Crabtree was such a pain to sign for his rookie contract I'm not expecting anything less on his next deal. That could still be 3 years away though because the 6th year is only voided under certain conditions.
[ Edited by tjd808185 on Mar 17, 2012 at 11:58 PM ]
Originally posted by jreff22:
Under current paychecks Morgan is making more, which means when Crab gets a new contract it will be for more. Look for him to try for a 8-10mill per deal. Gets open all the time...are you serious

I can find WR's with worse QB's and systems who do more. He is mediocre at best and will be overshadowed this year.

What Josh Morgan is making this year will have no effect on crabtrees future contract. I have no idea where you get this stuff from.

And yes, I think Crabtree gets seperation. I see him open all the time. It's up to the QB to hit him when he's open. If we get Peyton Manning maye you'll finally get it (instead of just reading stuff other people say and rolling with that).
Originally posted by tjd808185:
LOL Gronkowski got hurt and was playing at 50% during the Super Bowl. Tom Brady's primary weapon.

If Victor Cruz got hurt for New York it's different ballgame too. Injuries can derail any offense.

This. Gronkowski was basically a decoy during the Super Bowl, he couldn't really play and shouldn't have been out there.
Originally posted by Engleburger:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Under current paychecks Morgan is making more, which means when Crab gets a new contract it will be for more. Look for him to try for a 8-10mill per deal. Gets open all the time...are you serious

I can find WR's with worse QB's and systems who do more. He is mediocre at best and will be overshadowed this year.

What Josh Morgan is making this year will have no effect on crabtrees future contract. I have no idea where you get this stuff from.

And yes, I think Crabtree gets seperation. I see him open all the time. It's up to the QB to hit him when he's open. If we get Peyton Manning maye you'll finally get it (instead of just reading stuff other people say and rolling with that).

what WR's sign for will effect Crabtrees contract...thats how it works