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Were at 30, and Stephen Hill and Fleener are on the board

Were at 30, and Stephen Hill and Fleener are on the board

Originally posted by Alkasquawlik:
Originally posted by jreff22:
with his college numbers and awards he really should be

lol, really? Who cares what he did in college, he isn't living up to his first round draft pick in the NFL.

College production doesn't always translate to the NFL.

how exactly do you think kids gets ranked? Obviously not by combine numbers because he didnt do that either.
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by WRATHman44:

Originally posted by jreff22:
I for one do not want any DL this year because they wont see the field. If we go OL it would be at OG/C and that kid could walk into the starting job. I fully believe that if we draft a WR he would have the potential to be the #1. Everybody knows Crabs is not that guy, and Moss is on a 1 year deal...if we take a WR its because we have a glaring whole that needs filling.

By your definition of #1, Crab IS that guy. He had the most receiving yards, so he is the #1 receiver. Is he a guy who consistently gains separation from #1 CBs and defeats double teams? No, he hasn't shown that, and there is no guarantee that Hill would do that either, especially in his rookie year. Your argument opposes your argument.

How does my argument that Vernon is a locked in starter and Crabs is holding down a spot waiting for it to be taken oppose any argument? Crabs does not act or play like a #1. A team can have 5 scrubs and 1 will be the leader, should that team not look for a replacement because thy have a guy that leads in stats...that is stupid. He had 0 competition and received the benefit of that outcome. I am fully aware that any rookie might not "do it" but I really think the right kid will...is that Hill, maybe maybe not.

Look at what you are writing. You say that Crabtree is not a #1, then you state that a rookie could be the #1. In an earlier post you implicitly define the #1 WR as the guy with the most talent and dominant stats on his team. As of the end of the 2011 season, that was Crab for us. Taking a WR in the 1st round doesn't make them good. Ask Miami about Ted Ginn. If Crab is as bad as you say, a 2nd round pick would still be an upgrade. There is NO WAY that anyone we pick at 30 will be a higher-rated prospect than Crabtree was coming out. Drafting a can't miss number one would certainly trump a sure thing #2 TE, but there are no sure thing WRs available after Blackmon, and I still question whether his height/speed combo will allow even him to take over games, like a true #1 should. With a team that most commonly lines up with two TEs, and whose next most common formation is 2 WR, 1 TE, 1 FB, it seems unlikely that the #3 WR (the most likely slot a drafted WR would play at) would make more of an impact than a #2 TE.

I said it before, I would be happy to get Hill or Wright, but I don't think either of them would make a greater immediate impact than Fleener. Incidenally, a C/G would not be walking into a starting role at RG, as the Matts have reported numerous times that the 49ers are very high on Kilgore, and would like for him to win the job in TC.

Crabtree got those numbers by default, everybody got injured. And I have said numerous times I think Hill is a 2nd rounder and yes he could out perform Crabtree IMO. There is not sure thing and that includes FLEENER which all of you guys are talking that he is...why is he? What makes you think he wont suck in the NFL?
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
That exactly proves his point. Crabtree was the HANDS DOWN best WR in the draft class (well, nearly, stupid Raiders ), and a sure thing #1, but it didn't turn out that way. How the hell is the number 3-6 WR off of the board at #30 a greater certainty? Wanting a situation to turn out a certain way doesn't make it so.

9erlifer: watch the games, dude. We've been over this. We WERE in 2 TE (or more) sets for more than half of the offensive plays. You might not like it, but the numbers hold true on this. That is not a fluke, as that has been Harbaugh's offensive tendency in Stanford, too. The 2nd TE plays more snaps than the 3rd WR. If you think a WR like Hill (tons of talent, but raw) will displace Moss and/or Crabtree for starting snaps in his first season, I think you are taking a greater leap than assuming that Fleener will displace Walker.
I think you summed it up perfectly right there. Tight ends are becoming more prominent and you can make a legitimate argument that your 2nd tight end is more important than your 3rd receiver and in New England's case Hernandez is more important than their 2nd receiver.

It's not a stretch to say that Crabtree, Davis, and Fleener can result into a much improved offense.


One of the reasons to pick Fleener is that he would be the best play maker at that spot regardless of position (if he is). Another reason is that the new rules against DB contact make tall TEs and WRs much more valuable than previous years. This change, was it last year?, along with Harbaugh's love for playing three TEs would increase any TEs value to the team. Still a lot of jockeying to do before the draft, so we have to see what settles...like the QB posiiton. Painful sweet agony of fandom!

You do realize that he can be jammed at the line which is easier for a LB to do to a TE.
Originally posted by jreff22:
how exactly do you think kids gets ranked? Obviously not by combine numbers because he didnt do that either.

lol, so why are you touting Hill then? His combine numbers pushed him into the first round, not his production numbers in college, regardless of whatever system he was in.
Originally posted by jreff22:
Crabtree got those numbers by default, everybody got injured. And I have said numerous times I think Hill is a 2nd rounder and yes he could out perform Crabtree IMO. There is not sure thing and that includes FLEENER which all of you guys are talking that he is...why is he? What makes you think he wont suck in the NFL?

There is less of a chance of Fleener busting as a productive TE in our system, than Hill busting as our "#1 WR".

How you cannot see that, is beyond me.
Originally posted by jreff22:
You do realize that he can be jammed at the line which is easier for a LB to do to a TE.

Of course he can be jammed at the line, VD can be jammed at the line too, as well as Gronk and Graham. Your point?
Originally posted by Alkasquawlik:
Originally posted by jreff22:
how exactly do you think kids gets ranked? Obviously not by combine numbers because he didnt do that either.

lol, so why are you touting Hill then? His combine numbers pushed him into the first round, not his production numbers in college, regardless of whatever system he was in.

I am touting a WR, not necessarily Hill. If you watch GT you would know their WR's don't post big numbers because of the system. If the FO has him graded in the top 32 then I would pull the trigger on him.
Originally posted by Alkasquawlik:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Crabtree got those numbers by default, everybody got injured. And I have said numerous times I think Hill is a 2nd rounder and yes he could out perform Crabtree IMO. There is not sure thing and that includes FLEENER which all of you guys are talking that he is...why is he? What makes you think he wont suck in the NFL?

There is less of a chance of Fleener busting as a productive TE in our system, than Hill busting as our "#1 WR".

How you cannot see that, is beyond me.

Explain how you have this insight? We have 3 WR's on the roster as of now, we have 3 TE's on the roster as of now. Hill can pretty much get playing time by default at this point.
Originally posted by jreff22:
Explain how you have this insight? We have 3 WR's on the roster as of now, we have 3 TE's on the roster as of now. Hill can pretty much get playing time by default at this point.

We have 3 WRs now, wait til the end of free agency before pushing the panic button. You think the FO isn't going to make anymore moves? We'll pick up Lloyd or Manningham to add veteran depth and playmaking ability.
Hill could theoretically be the 4th receiver on the depth chart if we drafted him.

Fleener would arguably be the #2 TE on the depth chart.
[ Edited by Alkasquawlik on Mar 17, 2012 at 10:47 AM ]
Originally posted by Alkasquawlik:
Originally posted by jreff22:
You do realize that he can be jammed at the line which is easier for a LB to do to a TE.

Of course he can be jammed at the line, VD can be jammed at the line too, as well as Gronk and Graham. Your point?

VD isn't a lanky kid, neither is Gronk or Graham. I don't see him out muscling guys and running free. He looks like more like a big WR then a TE to me.
Originally posted by jreff22:
I am touting a WR, not necessarily Hill. If you watch GT you would know their WR's don't post big numbers because of the system. If the FO has him graded in the top 32 then I would pull the trigger on him.

The thread topic is Fleener vs Hill, but I see your point.

I agree we need a receiver, just feel we would be stretching with Hill at #30.
Originally posted by jreff22:
VD isn't a lanky kid, neither is Gronk or Graham. I don't see him out muscling guys and running free. He looks like more like a big WR then a TE to me.

6'6" 245 lbs is "lanky" to you?

VD is 6'3", 250 lbs

Gronk is 6'6", 265 lbs and Graham is 6'6" 260 lbs.
[ Edited by Alkasquawlik on Mar 17, 2012 at 10:53 AM ]
Originally posted by Alkasquawlik:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Explain how you have this insight? We have 3 WR's on the roster as of now, we have 3 TE's on the roster as of now. Hill can pretty much get playing time by default at this point.

We have 3 WRs now, wait til the end of free agency before pushing the panic button. You think the FO isn't going to make anymore moves? We'll pick up Lloyd or Manningham to add veteran depth and playmaking ability.
Hill could theoretically be the 4th receiver on the depth chart if we drafted him.

Fleener would arguably be the #2 TE on the depth chart.

I don't see either Manningham or Lloyd coming here. Chances are we get Ginn back which is WR who isn't a WR. Those later moves are adding bodies not playmakers which further cements a rookie into a starting role. If we look at history, Crabs will be hurt during TC and will probably not be healthy for 2-3 games, that is all any good WR would need to surpass him.

It comes down to more of a full time job. Moss and "rookie" always on the field vs Vernon and "Fleener" sometimes on the field. I really think Crabs get pushed down the depth chart.
Originally posted by jreff22:
You do realize that he can be jammed at the line which is easier for a LB to do to a TE.


Of course, but as he seemed to catch most of the TDs at Stanford he was evidently able to get off the line. Also, as we saw last year, Harbaugh is pretty adept at getting TEs in a position to make plays.

I'm not saying take Fleener at any cost, but rather he may be the best player at #30 for the 9ers. If a top rate WR is there than it becomes interesting and Baalke/Harbaugh will make an informed decision.
Originally posted by Alkasquawlik:
Originally posted by jreff22:
VD isn't a lanky kid, neither is Gronk or Graham. I don't see him out muscling guys and running free. He looks like more like a big WR then a TE to me.

6'6" 245 lbs is "lanky" to you?

VD is 6'3", 250 lbs

Gronk is 6'6", 265 lbs and Graham is 6'6" 260 lbs.

yeah that is lanky to me, he's a big kid but not a big bodied kid..if that makes sense. He is 10lbs heaver then Calvin but 20lbs lighter then Gronk