Drafting a TE This Year: Why it Would Possibly Be a GREAT Move

It just feels right.

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Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
You are absolutely right.

But here's the question I have yet to see anyone answer: What do we do with Vernon Davis? You draft for starters in the first round, even late in the first. So what do we tell Vernon after putting up All Pro numbers and going to the Pro Bowl? Take one for the team? This is a business? All this talk about siding him with Vernon is great but there's the vital detail of who would be the starter between the two. Sure, we run a lot of two TE sets, but its not our featured look. Vernon - the starter - gets the lions share of the snaps between he and D. Walker. So, if we draft Fleener do we actually expect Vernon to take a reduced role to just two TE sets so an unproven rookie can start (after all, we are talking about drafting Fleener in the first meaning he eventually gets most of the snaps)? Or, if we don't expect Fleener to start then why in the hell are we drafting a projected backup in the first round? OK, I get trading D. Walker. You get no argument from me on that. But the question still has to be answered as to how we deal with Vernon after drafting a TE in the first.

I really don't get what your mental block about this whole situation is? You can have a 2 TE set as your base set. Its basically what New England did, its what Harbaugh did at Stanford, if they go out and draft Fleener, both VD and Fleener are starters. I'm really confused about the issues you're having with this. Both Gronkowski and Hernandez had over 900 yards receiving for the Patriots this year, more than any single 49ers receiver. You CAN successfully have 2 full-time TE's, its been done, just can't imagine why it is so hard for you to grasp.

My "mental block" on that is that we don't feature a two TE set and we won't in 2012. We ran a lot of that because our WR's gave us pedestrian numbers that forced our coaching staff to be more creative with what we had. Plus, as we just saw from NO and NE that two TEs wont necessarily win us a SB. You don't understand my "mental block" because I don't agree with you. I don't agree because the NFL game is different from the NCAA. In collage, you can get away with featuring a 2 TE look. In the NFL you won't, trust me. A team that plays the run well with LB's that can cover and your two TE dream is cut short, especially if you don't have a real threat at the WR position.

A #1 guy is a Fitzgerald, a Calvin Johnson, a Marques Colston...etc. There really are no true #1 guys at the top of this draft, there's some raw guys with higher ceilings such as Streeter, but at the end of the 1st round you're getting another Crabtree, meaning another receiver who can be shutdown by a single CB.

Your opinion....

LOL, what the hell are people basing this off of? Sanu or Floyd are nice enough but they're both complementary receivers, possession guys, just like Crabtree.

Again, you opnion. And I have faith in our coaching staff with rookies.

Oh yeah, my Vernon question still stands.....

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
My "mental block" on that is that we don't feature a two TE set and we won't in 2012. We ran a lot of that because our WR's gave us pedestrian numbers that forced our coaching staff to be more creative with what we had. Plus, as we just saw from NO and NE that two TEs wont necessarily win us a SB. You don't understand my "mental block" because I don't agree with you. I don't agree because the NFL game is different from the NCAA. In collage, you can get away with featuring a 2 TE look. In the NFL you won't, trust me. A team that plays the run well with LB's that can cover and your two TE dream is cut short, especially if you don't have a real threat at the WR position.

A #1 guy is a Fitzgerald, a Calvin Johnson, a Marques Colston...etc. There really are no true #1 guys at the top of this draft, there's some raw guys with higher ceilings such as Streeter, but at the end of the 1st round you're getting another Crabtree, meaning another receiver who can be shutdown by a single CB.

Your opinion....

LOL, what the hell are people basing this off of? Sanu or Floyd are nice enough but they're both complementary receivers, possession guys, just like Crabtree.

Again, you opnion. And I have faith in our coaching staff with rookies.

Oh yeah, my Vernon question still stands.....

LOL, yeah, there's a lot of those teams who can adequately cover two top TE's with their linebackers. That's why Hernandez and Gronkowski were repeatedly and completely shut-down, game after game this year. 2 tight-ends man, that s**t don't work.





Also we know that nothing that's ever utilized in college football works in the pro's, hence why Harbaugh is a terrible pro coach and why the spread offense is NEVER used in the NFL.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
My "mental block" on that is that we don't feature a two TE set and we won't in 2012. We ran a lot of that because our WR's gave us pedestrian numbers that forced our coaching staff to be more creative with what we had. Plus, as we just saw from NO and NE that two TEs wont necessarily win us a SB. You don't understand my "mental block" because I don't agree with you. I don't agree because the NFL game is different from the NCAA. In collage, you can get away with featuring a 2 TE look. In the NFL you won't, trust me. A team that plays the run well with LB's that can cover and your two TE dream is cut short, especially if you don't have a real threat at the WR position.

A #1 guy is a Fitzgerald, a Calvin Johnson, a Marques Colston...etc. There really are no true #1 guys at the top of this draft, there's some raw guys with higher ceilings such as Streeter, but at the end of the 1st round you're getting another Crabtree, meaning another receiver who can be shutdown by a single CB.

Your opinion....

LOL, what the hell are people basing this off of? Sanu or Floyd are nice enough but they're both complementary receivers, possession guys, just like Crabtree.

Again, you opnion. And I have faith in our coaching staff with rookies.

Oh yeah, my Vernon question still stands.....

LOL, yeah, there's a lot of those teams who can adequately cover two top TE's with their linebackers. That's why Hernandez and Gronkowski were repeatedly and completely shut-down, game after game this year. 2 tight-ends man, that s**t don't work.





Also we know that nothing that's ever utilized in college football works in the pro's, hence why Harbaugh is a terrible pro coach and why the spread offense is NEVER used in the NFL.

Ouch. Owned. Seriously, the suggestion that teams can cover two talented TEs with LBs is baseless and unsupported by any supstantial evidence from the season. LBs don't come any better or more athletic than Willis, and he had more than he could shut down with Graham and Pettigrew. Not hating; I love PWilly, but I saw it with my own eyes. So, with two of those guys, you need more than 2 Patrick Willises. Good luck. Second, there were several weeks where the 49ers used 2 TEs more than any other position grouping, which I would call featuring that grouping. If they had a better #2 TE (and Fleener or Allen would be better than Walker as TEs), it certainly stands to reason that they would be comfortable using that grouping even more. If you don't want a TE, fine. Suggesting that Walker is so good that a talented rookie would be behind him smacks of homerism, and attemting to discredit the 2-TE offense in the year of the TE is unconvincing at best. Like I have said before in this and other threads, you have to be flexible enough to realize that there are many ways to skin the same cat. A burner WR opens things underneath, as would a true #1, or a dominant jump ball receiver. Similarly, 2 dominant TEs (I like walker, but he is absolutely NOT dominant) demand extra coverage and open things up on the outside. Many methods to improve the passing game. I just think that you get better value at #30 with the #1 or 2 TE than you do with the #5-7 WR, especially in a class that is deep but not top-heavy. My opinion.

Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Ouch. Owned. Seriously, the suggestion that teams can cover two talented TEs with LBs is baseless and unsupported by any supstantial evidence from the season. LBs don't come any better or more athletic than Willis, and he had more than he could shut down with Graham and Pettigrew. Not hating; I love PWilly, but I saw it with my own eyes. So, with two of those guys, you need more than 2 Patrick Willises. Good luck. Second, there were several weeks where the 49ers used 2 TEs more than any other position grouping, which I would call featuring that grouping. If they had a better #2 TE (and Fleener or Allen would be better than Walker as TEs), it certainly stands to reason that they would be comfortable using that grouping even more. If you don't want a TE, fine. Suggesting that Walker is so good that a talented rookie would be behind him smacks of homerism, and attemting to discredit the 2-TE offense in the year of the TE is unconvincing at best. Like I have said before in this and other threads, you have to be flexible enough to realize that there are many ways to skin the same cat. A burner WR opens things underneath, as would a true #1, or a dominant jump ball receiver. Similarly, 2 dominant TEs (I like walker, but he is absolutely NOT dominant) demand extra coverage and open things up on the outside. Many methods to improve the passing game. I just think that you get better value at #30 with the #1 or 2 TE than you do with the #5-7 WR, especially in a class that is deep but not top-heavy. My opinion.

My problem with Walker is that he doesn't force the defense to make any real adjustments, put a safety, put a CB on him, whatever, he doesn't have the physical size to demand any additional help, and he's a receiver with so-so hands. Why you wouldn't want a guy who's a potential gamebreaker, who DOES force the defense to change their usual gameplan is beyond me. Does anyone really think that the Giants could have doubled up VD if Fleener was on the field at the same time?

Ok, I know this is a point that some here don't want to look at but I still haven't gotten an answer to my main question: Given how so strongly NFL players are judged by on-the-field production (after all, it is how they pay their bills) what signal does it send to Vernon Davis if we draft a TE in the first? After all, we are talking about drafting a top blue chip TE in the 1st round on a team that already has a - if not the - top NFL TE (and no less than one of the corner stones of that team). NFL players jealousy guard their jobs, so do we really expect Vernon to welcome the inevitable reduction of his playing time (read: production) quietly? Do we expect Vernon to welcome his inevitable replacement after he put up a banner season, after he did everything the coaching staff wanted him to do, and then some? Furthermore, if we are drafting Fleener in the first but don't expect him to start then why in the hell are we drafting a backup in the first? (Trust me, this team will not go into the season starting two TE as the base offense, so one will have to the starter in non two TE sets unless we start two TE's on every snap - unlikely!) Teams seek STARTERS in the first (hense the threat to Vernon); and those teams drafting in the top 5 are looking for starters in the first three rounds.

Now, people can talk until they are blue in the face but the 49ers WILL NOT be featuring a 2 TE set as the base offense. I don't care how many times we show it in a game it won't be our base, and it wasn't in 2011. People are talking about this 2 TE thing as if its the panacea for NFL defenses. If such were the case NE or NO would have won the Super Bowl. Even if we run 2 TE 40% of the time (which I doubt will happen in 2012) it still won't be our base offense. Two TE's is a situational set, something you run to force the defense into a look that you are really wanting to exploit. It's not anything you base your offense on unless you really have to.(Now someone is going to latch on to that.)

Now, thats my opinion based on the realities of the NFL, not some rationalization of my imagination.

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
Ok, I know this is a point that some here don't want to look at but I still haven't gotten an answer to my main question: Given how so strongly NFL players are judged by on-the-field production (after all, it is how they pay their bills) what signal does it send to Vernon Davis if we draft a TE in the first? After all, we are talking about drafting a top blue chip TE in the 1st round on a team that already has a - if not the - top NFL TE (and no less than one of the corner stones of that team). NFL players jealousy guard their jobs, so do we really expect Vernon to welcome the inevitable reduction of his playing time (read: production) quietly? Do we expect Vernon to welcome his inevitable replacement after he put up a banner season, after he did everything the coaching staff wanted him to do, and then some? Furthermore, if we are drafting Fleener in the first but don't expect him to start then why in the hell are we drafting a backup in the first? (Trust me, this team will not go into the season starting two TE as the base offense, so one will have to the starter in non two TE sets unless we start two TE's on every snap - unlikely!) Teams seek STARTERS in the first (hense the threat to Vernon); and those teams drafting in the top 5 are looking for starters in the first three rounds.

Now, people can talk until they are blue in the face but the 49ers WILL NOT be featuring a 2 TE set as the base offense. I don't care how many times we show it in a game it won't be our base, and it wasn't in 2011. People are talking about this 2 TE thing as if its the panacea for NFL defenses. If such were the case NE or NO would have won the Super Bowl. Even if we run 2 TE 40% of the time (which I doubt will happen in 2012) it still won't be our base offense. Two TE's is a situational set, something you run to force the defense into a look that you are really wanting to exploit. It's not anything you base your offense on unless you really have to.(Now someone is going to latch on to that.)

Now, thats my opinion based on the realities of the NFL, not some rationalization of my imagination.

uhh... they've done it for the past three years, how's that for reality? As for the message it sends to Vernon, it tells him that he is too valuable to be doubled constantly, and we want to force teams to play him more honestly, especially down the middle of the field. You tell Vernon that, and I bet he won't be mad. Once again, it is interesting that you base your opinion on "realities", which are still your perceptions, and now you degrade the ideas of others (which are probably too logical and open for your myopic argument) as rationalizations of the imagination. Nice straw man argument, dude.

Listen, the 49ers might not draft a TE, but for you to deny the possibilities that another top-flight TE would open up for the offense is juvenile and completely close-minded. You might PREFER another route, which is fine, but the NFL has demonstrated THIS YEAR how effective a base 2 TE offense is (think: NE and Carolina making MAJOR advances on offense this year, including ressurecting Steve Smith in Carolina because he had a big arm QB and offenses couldn't afford to double him all game). The 49ers have been doing it since Jimmy Raye, and Jimmy's offense would have worked with less-predictable playcalling (always run on 1st, always pass on 3rd)

Juvenile? Wow! I don't think that I went anywhere close to that, but thats OK, I'm a big boy. You won't get a private msg. from me I can make my points without going there. And I don't think I ever minimized, much less degraded, anyones points or ideas in any of my statements. I will come point-for-point, but never minimize or degrade. Now, you don't have to agree with them, nor do I expect you to. But you shouldn't go to those corners when someone disagrees with you. This is an arena of written debate, so expect to be debated by those who sit on the other side of the stadium and thus see things from a different angle than you.

Now, true, we have run a lot of 2TE sets the past 3 seasons. But thats because our options at the WR position have been lack-luster at best, including 2011. And yes, these are my perceptions, and so are yours. I have never doubted what another top-flight TE could bring to this offense (though he would still have to prove himself to be top-flight in the NFL). But what I've always, and will continue to maintain, is the lack of a need for this team to draft a TE - regardless how good he's projected to be - in the first in the face of other more important needs. I'm sorry, but from what I've seen of my beloved 49ers is that we have a need - and big need - at WR, not TE. And in fact picking a TE in the first just could cause some problems for the 49ers. Thats the nature of the NFL, yes, from my perspective.

Originally posted by WRATHman44:
uhh... they've done it for the past three years, how's that for reality? As for the message it sends to Vernon, it tells him that he is too valuable to be doubled constantly, and we want to force teams to play him more honestly, especially down the middle of the field. You tell Vernon that, and I bet he won't be mad. Once again, it is interesting that you base your opinion on "realities", which are still your perceptions, and now you degrade the ideas of others (which are probably too logical and open for your myopic argument) as rationalizations of the imagination. Nice straw man argument, dude.

Listen, the 49ers might not draft a TE, but for you to deny the possibilities that another top-flight TE would open up for the offense is juvenile and completely close-minded. You might PREFER another route, which is fine, but the NFL has demonstrated THIS YEAR how effective a base 2 TE offense is (think: NE and Carolina making MAJOR advances on offense this year, including ressurecting Steve Smith in Carolina because he had a big arm QB and offenses couldn't afford to double him all game). The 49ers have been doing it since Jimmy Raye, and Jimmy's offense would have worked with less-predictable playcalling (always run on 1st, always pass on 3rd)

You're trying to argue with someone who has their head up their nether region, its not worth it. There could be a choice between Rashaun Woods and Gronowski and you'd get the predictably same argument "derp, derp, derp, we needs a wide receiver, derp, derp, derp, because football never changes and its illegal to have 2 tight-ends play major roles on a team because tight-ends are big and slow, and they're just icky and dumb and i like receivers better, derp, derp, derp. You can have more than 1 good WR on team but you can't more than 1 good TE on a team because they'll hate each other and try to shank the other guy in the showers..."


It doesn't matter WHAT the options are at the various positions, the guy wants a WR because EVERYONE knows that a WR is better than a TE and if the 49ers drafted a TE, Vernon would have a soggy vagina because he would never see the field again and it would destroy the locker room and Candlestick Park would fall into the ocean before the 49ers ever have a chance to build their new stadium. Its also COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE that the talent at tight-end might be somewhat better than the talent available at WR, talent levels stay tactic through every draft year and thus its IMPOSSIBLE that there will ever be a tight-end that is an all-around better player than a given WR, it just doesn't happen. So in other words, damn who is available, 49ers need to pick a wide receiver, even if that wide receiver happens to be a mediocre prospect. Because its better to have a wide-receiver who gets locked down by a single cornerback than a big TE that might God forbid force the defense to adjust their playcalling, all so Vernon Davis, who is apparently super-emo, doesn't have his feelings hurt.



I think I've covered all his arguments pretty well.

I don't see why there's such an enormous fight going on about this. There is more than one reason for Fleener being a possibility. And no one's saying he's a lock or anything, just saying it's a possibility if he turns out to be the BPA.

Fleener does two things:

1) Creates unbelievable mismatches with Davis.
2) Makes Walker expendable after 2012, and we will not have to re-sign him.

Fleener also knows the system obviously. There's good reason to believe he could be selected, but I go back -- as always -- to the main thing that will decide it all. B. P. A.

Originally posted by OnTheClock:
I don't see why there's such an enormous fight going on about this. There is more than one reason for Fleener being a possibility. And no one's saying he's a lock or anything, just saying it's a possibility if he turns out to be the BPA.

Fleener does two things:

1) Creates unbelievable mismatches with Davis.
2) Makes Walker expendable after 2012, and we will not have to re-sign him.

Fleener also knows the system obviously. There's good reason to believe he could be selected, but I go back -- as always -- to the main thing that will decide it all. B. P. A.

This is always hilarious to me. Every year people argue about what position we will target, and why that's the most important position. Yet 90% of all non-QB picks in the top 2 rounds are purely based on BPA. Every now and then there are exceptions (mostly for LTs), but by and large, BPA is the likely scenario. That being said, we will NOT be drafting a MLB anywhere in the first 5 rounds (unless it's for a position change).

i am not a BPA guy im a position of need

right now we need a WR RG and CB in that order (assuming we resign FA)

everrything else is a luxury pick
we are currently weakest in those 3 positions if we want to improve fix those 3 positions

I personally love Fleener at 30. 30 is practically a high second round pick. I have Sanu really the only offensive guy above Fleener in the 49ers pick range. There are also other TE's to be had. WRs tend to pan out a bit better in the early rounds and TEs tend to be better in the mid rounds IMO. Paulson is an option in later rounds along with George Byryan out of NC State could be a sleeper. Pettigue has been a 3rd round pick for Detroit and Gresham is coming along as fast as a Special Olympic hurdler. Shoot even Davis took a while to come along. My point is even though I would be thrilled with Fleener, there are other big athletic TEs in the draft and would alow the 49ers to get a solid WR prospect which they desperately need to compete with Morgan and Crabs.

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
Ok, I know this is a point that some here don't want to look at but I still haven't gotten an answer to my main question: Given how so strongly NFL players are judged by on-the-field production (after all, it is how they pay their bills) what signal does it send to Vernon Davis if we draft a TE in the first? After all, we are talking about drafting a top blue chip TE in the 1st round on a team that already has a - if not the - top NFL TE (and no less than one of the corner stones of that team). NFL players jealousy guard their jobs, so do we really expect Vernon to welcome the inevitable reduction of his playing time (read: production) quietly? Do we expect Vernon to welcome his inevitable replacement after he put up a banner season, after he did everything the coaching staff wanted him to do, and then some? Furthermore, if we are drafting Fleener in the first but don't expect him to start then why in the hell are we drafting a backup in the first? (Trust me, this team will not go into the season starting two TE as the base offense, so one will have to the starter in non two TE sets unless we start two TE's on every snap - unlikely!) Teams seek STARTERS in the first (hense the threat to Vernon); and those teams drafting in the top 5 are looking for starters in the first three rounds.

Now, people can talk until they are blue in the face but the 49ers WILL NOT be featuring a 2 TE set as the base offense. I don't care how many times we show it in a game it won't be our base, and it wasn't in 2011. People are talking about this 2 TE thing as if its the panacea for NFL defenses. If such were the case NE or NO would have won the Super Bowl. Even if we run 2 TE 40% of the time (which I doubt will happen in 2012) it still won't be our base offense. Two TE's is a situational set, something you run to force the defense into a look that you are really wanting to exploit. It's not anything you base your offense on unless you really have to.(Now someone is going to latch on to that.)

Now, thats my opinion based on the realities of the NFL, not some rationalization of my imagination.

Rob Gronkowski 90 catches on 124 targets. 1327 yards and 17 Td's
Aaron Hernandez 79 catches on 113 targets. 910 yards on 7 td's and I believe he was hurt for some games.

Vernon Davis 67 catches on 95 targets. 792 yards and 6 Td's

I don't know the percentage on how many times we ran a 2 TE set or the Patriots ran a 2 TE set but either way I think VErnon would be fine with another TE. Even if he is the lesser of the 2 TE's from this example, his stats will go up.

We don't throw the ball as much as NE does, at least not this year but if Fleener or anyone else becomes a real threat than they can't double Vernon as much. And a 5'11 db weighing 180 pounds can't cover a 6'6 Fleener if he is that good.

I'm curious to know how NE lines up. Do they run 2 TE sets or do they put Hernandez as a wr sometimes. Either way it's a mismatch.

Originally posted by clemyre:
I personally love Fleener at 30. 30 is practically a high second round pick. I have Sanu really the only offensive guy above Fleener in the 49ers pick range. There are also other TE's to be had. WRs tend to pan out a bit better in the early rounds and TEs tend to be better in the mid rounds IMO. Paulson is an option in later rounds along with George Byryan out of NC State could be a sleeper. Pettigue has been a 3rd round pick for Detroit and Gresham is coming along as fast as a Special Olympic hurdler. Shoot even Davis took a while to come along. My point is even though I would be thrilled with Fleener, there are other big athletic TEs in the draft and would alow the 49ers to get a solid WR prospect which they desperately need to compete with Morgan and Crabs.

pettigrew was a 1st rd pick