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If we got the 1st pick next year, do we take Luck even though we've got Kap?

  • Kolohe
  • Hall of Fame
  • Posts: 30,907
Originally posted by WildBill:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by WildBill:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by WildBill:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by WildBill:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by WildBill:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by WildBill:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Even Kaepernick says hes a project:

Quote:

I’m portrayed as a little bit more of a raw athlete than quarterbacks that run an NFL-style system, but this week I really wanted to show that my physical tools, my footwork is pretty fine tuned,” said Kaepernick, who passed for 10,098 yards, threw for 82 touchdowns and rushed for another 59 scores in his four seasons. “I’m not a long-term project going into the NFL.”

Mayock seems to think so too:

Quote:
"Kaepernick I think is a great project," Mayock said. "He's got mechanical issues, but he's got a big arm and someone is going to develop him."

Link

Uh kolohe- you need read what you posted in bold. Kaep says he "does not" think he is a project. He does say he know that he is portrayed as such.

He also said in one interview, he is shooting to start asap. Like the movie top gun when Viper says-pretty arrogrant considering the company you are in...Maverick/Colin-yes sir, Viper/Harbaugh-I like that in a fighter pilot/QB...

He doesn't think hes a "Long term project", so what I got out of it, is that he thinks hes a short term maybe 1-2 years. Now I could see if he said he wasn't a project period, then of course I wouldn't have posted it.

WildBill and all the other Kaepernick hopefuls, I don't know why you guys get so worked up when people consider Kaepernick as a project. For all we know, Kaepernick might start from day 1. I won't hold my breath though, but I won't deny his talent either.

Nah, I'm not getting worked up about Colin, I do consider any QB coming into the NFL a project. Just posting the other side of the coin to those who go the other extreme and say that Gabbert should have been the pick or Stanzi or Dalton. Or that Luck is going to be the next Marino or Manning from day one. No one knows that until they step on the field. Easy to blast someone when you are not on the hot seat and don't know whats going on like who Harbaugh wanted. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, just that people having making assumptions without the facts or knowing the sidtuation.

You watch local TV news anchor Joe Moore? He said, How do you keep from falling down real hard? Don't jump to conclusions. Kaep is who JH wanted and Baalke got the QB for him. As for Luck, all I said was that we don't know how Jim will view Colin after one year with him in comparision to Luck. Also that what JH saw in him has been validated in the press conferences by JH and Baalke and the show on espn just supports what Harbaugh is saying. Not saying Kaep don't make mistakes-you should remember the local boys beat Nevada and Mana Silva caught a deflected pass for an interception. I just love playing devils advocate. against some.

Good to see someone from Hawaii playing devils advocate, especially since we've seen him play against us for so many years. That's pretty much where my reasons of Kaepernick being a project at the next level. Shoot Colt Brennan would've definitely been a project if he came out his Jr. year and he was considered a late 1st-early 2nd round pick back then. And not to show my bias or anything, but Colt Brennan in college (keywords "in college"), was a much better passer than Kaepernick, and it definitely was taking time for him to adjust to the Pro's.

But with that aside, getting back to the original topic to this thread, Yes, if Alex Smith and Kaepernick do indeed struugle next year, we MUST draft Andrew Luck.

College is college...if he played for June Jones, his numbers would be out of this world, his numbers relegated to coach aults play calling, he scored what...20 TDs on the ground? I am honest when talking about Hawaii players, he didn't have the arm and his numbers are inflated as you know because of the scheme, Kaep's was not because the pistol didn't just shoot it also tried to pistol whip you upside the head.

Anyway, yes if the two fail and Luck is there then by all means, but what if Kaep is way ahead of what Luck was in his first year and go farther than Luck. Like take one step back to take two steps foward and two steps after that, where as the other guy is one step forward, then another step forward, meaning Kaep is steps from the line while Luck is two steps. Of course we don't know until after this year and only JH will truly have that insight and his actual actions will predicate his intentions.

Kaepernicks were not??? C'mon man, that's just crazy, Kaepernick was in a zone read offense that didn't have progressions. It was pretty much one-read option. Kaepernick wasn't/isn't a pocket passer, Brennan was and still had a hard time adjusting to the NFL, why would Kaepernick have a easier transition?? Why, arm-strength, if that's the case Druckenmiller should've been an All-Pro sitting behind Steve Young with a cannon for an arm and QB guru Steve Marriucci as HC.

So in the end your basically telling me, Kaepernick will have no problem whatsoever transitioning to the NFL and could start from day 1??

Most people in the football world call Kaepernick a project, but us 9er fans think hes not, but a prospect.

Prospect - Players coming from college that can be good at the next level.

Project - Player that will take time to transition while IN the NFL.

Kaep's numbers were not inflated compared to Colt because they did not throw as much as UH does and you know this. Hawaii is more shoot than run. They flood the secondary and the DB has to keep on his toes. every play, if one of them slips up then the chain keeps moving, it was like one out of the three is going to work and it normally did unless you had the athletes to cover them like Geogia did back then in the bowl game. It exposed Colt. You know it and I know it, Colt is a systems quaterback. If Kaep played for Jones his numbers would be out there and you know it-no offense to Colt, just the truth.

Kaep's offensive while not from a pro set, had a balance of running and passing. So he had to make the most of his passing. The three games that I saw of Kaep against Boise, UH and in the bowl, he went through his progressions when he had to, but he was also told to take whatever opp presents itself.

If you read my post I didn't say that he is going to be an instant success, but he is not as far behind as people think in starting, he will be much like Steve Young was or Vick was in their first year, although he will be much smarter than Vick was, Vick didn't want to listen too much. After one year of being plugged in hear and there, by the second year he will still have a lot to learn but maybe given the chance to take the reigns by JH simply because he can make things happen with his legs, and each year he'll progresss much like Young did.

So numbers can't be inflated if your working outta the Pistol running the option???

Again, this is why I think he will struggle as a passer at the next level, because hes hardly asked to. And when he does his mechanics breakdown and he becomes inconsistent, hence his game vs. Hawaii, Boise and BC. Where in those games he barely had a 60% com/pct.

But again the main point was how can one be so sure that he's further along as a passer in the NFL as rookie than other rookies?? This is why most think hes a project. Lets not forget that Vai Taua help take a lot of pressure off Kaepernick, why pass when you have a RB rushing for 20 TD's.

Kaep does what is necessary to win, he lead a comeback in a big game against Boise State. Against Hawaii he could have led them to a comeback also if his WR grabbed the ball instead letting it bounce from his hand. Plus you know Hawaii plays well against others at home because of the time difference and late start times. Against Boston he was efficient enough to win the big game.

How to tell he is further along than others? That is the million dollar question now isn't it. The things I look at is if it is from a system that inflates the QBs passing numbers like the spread. I also look at if it is a system that makes QBs look better than they are again the spread and places like any Spurrier or Urban Meyer or BYU team (from the old days). If the QB elevated the team and the team crashes after he leaves. The one thing that can't be measured is the head and heart.

As for Vai Taua, it is a question of which came first the chicken or the egg. Kaep scored 20 rushing TDs as well passed for what, 18-19?. You could say he loosened the D for Vai. Plus Kaep has Gore and more talented players surrounding him. What will make him more successful than other Rookies? His ability to extend plays and having a good rushing attack. Not to mention an offensive and QB oriented HC. Not saying he starts right away, but after a year we will see, I believe JH will keep it simple (KISS rule) like it was done for Bradford and have Kaep rely on his athletic ability and instincts and let him grow.

Like I said after a year, if anyone should know what to do if we have a chance at Luck it is Harbaugh. However, my opinion and everyone has one just like an a-hole, is that he is not as much of a project as people think and is more of a propect than given credit for. We'll see, but this damn CBA is ruining everything, even if you Manning reborn.

Your talking about Kaepernick as an overall player, my main point of this whole argument was how he projects to the next level as a passer. Farther along than most, we'll just have to see about that, like I said, hes never had to go through his progressions and comeback to his reads. Hes never took a 3 and 5 step drop WHILE going through his progressions. There's been so many prospects to go into the NFL draft with the same skills as Kaepernick, strong arm, tall, mobile, but from what I've seen, the ones who go far in the Pro's are the ones who have that poise and utilize the weapons around him. I just don't see that in Kaepernick, nor did I see it with Alex Smith. Like I said, my opinion might not be the most popular around here, but it is what it is....my opinion.

A lot of people didn't like McNabb or Young or Doug Williams or.....all in the same vein as Kaep. You said he's never gone through his progressions, I say I have seen him go throught his from the progressions at least three, often times when it is not a planned rollout, things breakdown so he buys time, but keeps his eyes downfield and either goes to the third read or back to his first who has broken off his pattern. How can you not look at Kaep for his overall ability? That IS part of being a passer. extending the play as JH has said, while looking downfield and if the LB and DBs have their backs turned, takes it up field. This then causes the D to spy on the QB thus loosening the coverage. The same way a good running back helps sell play action pass.

Yes we will see and I also have my opinions, I b***hed tooth and nail about the Smith pick and thought he wasn't a franchise QB, not saying I am right but, I don't get the feeling with Kaep. like I did with Alex, I think he will be a McNabb or Willilams or Cunningham, Young better yet, and for a second round pick and after what we have gone through lately, that is welcome. I also didn't like Druckenmiller and Carmmzi pick. Wanted Plumber during that time period.

I have no doubt that Alex will be better, but he is still not the answer, the reason is JH and Roman will not ask him to do things they know he cannot do. Stll, I don't like Alex.

Like someone said JH will have the inside info on both if this situation should arise, we will see.

I can't seem to find any full video of him, except highlights and the Hawaii game, but you could see he clearly does not go through his progressions or reads in this video :



Quote:

• Will have to refine footwork and throwing mechanics
• Too eager to give up on a pass and take off running
• Touch, timing and accuracy are all merely average
• Takes chances and not always a great decision maker
• Didn't work under center or go through progressions

Link

Quote:
Plays out of the pistol, lacks experience under center. Has not been asked to make NFL progressions and reads. Not quick to check down or hit hot read against the blitz. Misses too many short passes. Doesn't have consistent touch on the deep ball. Release is somewhat elongated and can dip down to sidearm at times.

Link
  • mod
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 28,231
look what I found



http://browse.deviantart.com/customization/wallpaper/widescreen/?qh=§ion=&q=49ers#/d3bd4zk
Originally posted by jta854:
Originally posted by WildBill:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by WildBill:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
I think Luck is the best QB prospect to enter the draft since Troy Aikman in 1989. Better than Bradford, Stafford, both Mannings, Vick, etc.

The best thing the Niners can do this season is to lose every single game. Luck is the real deal and the team that drafts him will be a playoff team within a very short window of time.

I do agree with an earlier poster than we could see teams intentionally tank toward the end of the year in order to draft him.

I would take Manning over Aikman, why? whenever one of the two amigos were missing, the cowboys suffered, plus they had the coach with the hair an pair of steel balls. While Manning kept trucking with new WR and RB and change of coaches.

Entering the draft, not projecting pro careers.

If you are truly sansing the pro careers and not using that, at the time Drew Bledsoe and Jeff George were up there if not better according to many the prognisticators, maybe not to you but to the ones that make a living off of this.

Blah, Blah, Blah. His point is that he is the best QB prospect to come into the NFL in 20 something years.

I understand that, but we'll see what will happen if the situation ever really presents itself, will Harbaugh tell Baalke get him and keep him or will he stay the course and tell B other? Until this season in pro and college is history do we as a fan or as JH take Luck and I am saying only Harbaugh will know and understand aside from fan emotions.
Originally posted by modninerfan:
look what I found



http://browse.deviantart.com/customization/wallpaper/widescreen/?qh=§ion=&q=49ers#/d3bd4zk

Not sure-was John Brodie's number retired?
Originally posted by Kolohe:
I can't seem to find any full video of him, except highlights and the Hawaii game, but you could see he clearly does not go through his progressions or reads in this video :



Quote:

• Will have to refine footwork and throwing mechanics
• Too eager to give up on a pass and take off running
• Touch, timing and accuracy are all merely average
• Takes chances and not always a great decision maker
• Didn't work under center or go through progressions

Link

Quote:
Plays out of the pistol, lacks experience under center. Has not been asked to make NFL progressions and reads. Not quick to check down or hit hot read against the blitz. Misses too many short passes. Doesn't have consistent touch on the deep ball. Release is somewhat elongated and can dip down to sidearm at times.

Link

Different people will have different points of view, you could find those who say otherwise. I remember seeing the games and him going throught the progressions. You have to have seen the whole game and not just the highlights. The highlights on the webs are always going to show spectacular play which usually involve some degree of chaos. The ordinary several progression plays that connected are ordinary and very seldom going to make the highlight reel unless it is for say like the last game winning drive or in a big game for a TD. As I said to me I hated the Alex pick and didn't feel he had it in him. Kaep I feel has it in him. Would I like Luck at this very moment over Kaep-sure. How about next year? Get back to me when the data is in. Never assume one way or another.
  • mod
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 28,231
Originally posted by WildBill:
Originally posted by modninerfan:
look what I found



http://browse.deviantart.com/customization/wallpaper/widescreen/?qh=§ion=&q=49ers#/d3bd4zk

Not sure-was John Brodie's number retired?

I believe so, but he let Dilfer wear it so....
  • Kolohe
  • Hall of Fame
  • Posts: 30,907
Originally posted by WildBill:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
I can't seem to find any full video of him, except highlights and the Hawaii game, but you could see he clearly does not go through his progressions or reads in this video :



Quote:

• Will have to refine footwork and throwing mechanics
• Too eager to give up on a pass and take off running
• Touch, timing and accuracy are all merely average
• Takes chances and not always a great decision maker
• Didn't work under center or go through progressions

Link

Quote:
Plays out of the pistol, lacks experience under center. Has not been asked to make NFL progressions and reads. Not quick to check down or hit hot read against the blitz. Misses too many short passes. Doesn't have consistent touch on the deep ball. Release is somewhat elongated and can dip down to sidearm at times.

Link

Different people will have different points of view, you could find those who say otherwise. I remember seeing the games and him going throught the progressions. You have to have seen the whole game and not just the highlights. The highlights on the webs are always going to show spectacular play which usually involve some degree of chaos. The ordinary several progression plays that connected are ordinary and very seldom going to make the highlight reel unless it is for say like the last game winning drive or in a big game for a TD. As I said to me I hated the Alex pick and didn't feel he had it in him. Kaep I feel has it in him. Would I like Luck at this very moment over Kaep-sure. How about next year? Get back to me when the data is in. Never assume one way or another.

Well I've given you a few examples of what I've been seeing in him over the years, where's yours??? And was it progressions or Kaepernick keeping the play alive and seeing what options he has??? I mean, how can he read through his progressions or reads when hes basically asked to read what the backside DE will do when the O-line is blocking down to the play-side?? Basically his two reads would be to see if the DE will chase down the RB, which he would pull back and take it himself or watch if the DE is keeping contain and hand off to the RB. I've never saw Kaepernick in games standing in the pocket going through his reads, it was pretty much a one-look read, setting up a screen or PA.

In the end, you have your opinion and I have mine. Not really much we can go on about, besides continuing to disagree with one another, so I'll just leave this as it is.
With Alex Smith as the starte, we have a good shot at the number 1 pick
trading up to the top spot from the 32nd pick would take two drafts worth of picks atleast.
that is like saying "will you accept this winning lottery ticket even though you have a job"
At some point you just got to give up on the Luck dream. We won't pick #1 next year. Just not going to happen.
[ Edited by SanDiego49er on May 20, 2011 at 3:11 AM ]
that's because we're picking 32nd overall
Originally posted by WildBill:
Originally posted by modninerfan:
look what I found



http://browse.deviantart.com/customization/wallpaper/widescreen/?qh=§ion=&q=49ers#/d3bd4zk

Not sure-was John Brodie's number retired?

Yes NFL Retired Numbers
[ Edited by dtg_9er on May 20, 2011 at 7:38 AM ]
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by WildBill:
Originally posted by modninerfan:
look what I found



http://browse.deviantart.com/customization/wallpaper/widescreen/?qh=§ion=&q=49ers#/d3bd4zk

Not sure-was John Brodie's number retired?

Yes NFL Retired Numbers

Looks great though. Obviously it's not a real way to evaluate a player, but there is something to be said about looking like you belong in the uniform. Brady and Manning do, and I've never felt Alex looked quite right in 9er red.
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
At some point you just got to give up on the Luck dream. We won't pick #1 next year. Just not going to happen.

i will give up on the luck dream when he is playing on another team...
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