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robert quinn vs von miller

robert quinn vs von miller

The more I think about it, I'd go with Miller. He's better suited to play OLB as a rookie because he already has the experience. There's not much of a transition for him. He'll just be learning the defense, not a new position. His transition will be mostly mental.

I feel that Miller is going to resemble Dumervil. Sure, they're built differently and are very different as prospects, but they have a nearly identical style of play. Dumervil is an outstanding pass rusher, but he's gives up some against the run. Prior to switching to the 3-4, Denver only used him on passing downs because of this. They felt that they couldn't afford to leave him on the field all game because their run defense was too weak.

With Miller, I think he'll wreak havok against in the backfield and add a lot to our pass defense. He will, however, weaken our rush defense. My feeling is that since we are strong against the run, we should go with the player that is going to solve our biggest weakness, our pass rush. That's Miller.

Also, the fact that Quinn sat out a year doesn't help his case. If he shows up to the Combine in great shape and shows some of that ridiculously-rumored speed, he'll be the talk of the draft. Really, you don't what you're going to get from Quinn until the workouts begin. As of today, Miller is the better pick.

[ Edited by strickac on Feb 3, 2011 at 07:09:29 ]
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
I don't think it's close....

Quinn>>>>>Miller

This... all day long.

Quinn is a blazer in his own right, and unlike Miller, he can fight through blocks and is 260-ish lbs. Miller would get victimized in the run game and easily stoned if a blocker gets in front of him.

And he's a really poor tackler. Miller could be the greatest pass rusher of all time....if we were playing two hand touch...unfortunately we are not, and you have to be able to bring the ball carrier or QB down. This will limit his effectiveness at the next level IMO

I agree... and teams will use his speed against him with lots of misdirection also.

If we want to stick a light-weight with speed in there? Just throw Mays in on a 3 safety package and blitz him all day. Same difference... straight speed with the hope that he can run AROUND blocks.

Agreed. But I do like Miller because you can't argue the production. Still, Quinn is a different story. Unbelievable player.

Yeah, I do think Miller could become a wicked OLB for a 4-3 team, once he learns the ropes. Particularly for a 4-3 team that loves to send LB blitzes.
Originally posted by strickac:
The more I think about it, I'd go with Miller. He's better suited to play OLB as a rookie because he already has the experience. There's not much of a transition for him. He'll just be learning the defense, not a new position. His transition will be mostly mental.

I feel that Miller is going to resemble Dumervil. Sure, they're built differently and are very different as prospects, but they have a nearly identical style of play. Dumervil is an outstanding pass rusher, but he's gives up some against the run. Prior to switching to the 3-4, Denver only used him on passing downs because of this. They felt that they couldn't afford to leave him on the field all game because their run defense was too weak.

With Miller, I think he'll wreak havok against in the backfield and add a lot to our pass defense. He will, however, weaken our rush defense. My feeling is that since we are strong against the run, we should go with the player that is going to solve our biggest weakness, our pass rush. That's Miller.

Also, the fact that Quinn sat out a year doesn't help his case. If he shows up to the Combine in great shape and shows some of that ridiculously-rumored speed, he'll be the talk of the draft. Really, you don't what you're going to get from Quinn until the workouts begin. As of today, Miller is the better pick.

Watching Quinn I was most impressed by his quickness and his abilily to defeat blocks using that quickness and amazing strength. You are correct that Miller is the better known quantity however so if they select him it will be for a reason. Wish I could see them all in action or had game footage of their careers, then I would have a more definate opinion!
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
I don't think it's close....

Quinn>>>>>Miller

This... all day long.

Quinn is a blazer in his own right, and unlike Miller, he can fight through blocks and is 260-ish lbs. Miller would get victimized in the run game and easily stoned if a blocker gets in front of him.

And he's a really poor tackler. Miller could be the greatest pass rusher of all time....if we were playing two hand touch...unfortunately we are not, and you have to be able to bring the ball carrier or QB down. This will limit his effectiveness at the next level IMO

I agree... and teams will use his speed against him with lots of misdirection also.

If we want to stick a light-weight with speed in there? Just throw Mays in on a 3 safety package and blitz him all day. Same difference... straight speed with the hope that he can run AROUND blocks.

Agreed. But I do like Miller because you can't argue the production. Still, Quinn is a different story. Unbelievable player.

Yeah, I do think Miller could become a wicked OLB for a 4-3 team, once he learns the ropes. Particularly for a 4-3 team that loves to send LB blitzes.

Weak at the POA? Miller, even against the run? There are times when BOTH players get engulfed and tied up in the "phone booth" as the analysts identify. I find it at least a questionable trait for Quinn given his size:

"Plays with leverage holding the edge. Displays a strong initial punch and uses hands well to discard blocks. Fights hard to work through blocks but still developing in terms of finding the ball and finishing plays. Can be engulfed by bigger and more powerful blockers when caught in a phone booth situation. Also will have problems anchoring when teams elect to run at him. Strong wrap-up tackler in confined areas. Going to have some limitations when caught in one-on-one situations in the open field though."

This is one of Quinn's run D scouting report. So size is not everything and Miller is still the better pass rusher by a mile. That last part says it all. Miller DOES recover and can run down the fastest QBs.

It's OK though as I said before, Quinn's Combine will be as crazy or better than Miller's. AZ can haz him!

"two-hand" touch... good one! Miller needs to bulk up more to handle the weight coming at him, but he can and will. His technique against the run is much more sound than Quinn's especially holding the edge on sweeps and screens.

I understand both of your points and agree to a certain degree. I would rather have Miller than Quinn. Yet, I would still be happy with Quinn. But to imply that Miller will fail at the NFL run game is preposterous.
Originally posted by ninertico:


I understand both of your points and agree to a certain degree. I would rather have Miller than Quinn. Yet, I would still be happy with Quinn. But to imply that Miller will fail at the NFL run game is preposterous.

Not preposterous... it's common sense. Miller is not an imposing figure and lacks legit sand in the rear to anchor. He will get bowled over by blockers if he can not use his speed to go around them. He's just like Taylor Mays, except with appealing production as a rusher... as a college rusher.

Anyway... your opinion is as good as any here, so I will respect it and just disagree with it. (and not further argue it)
  • Kolohe
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Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
I don't think it's close....

Quinn>>>>>Miller

Why isn't it close???

There's a good amount of video on Quinn all over the internet (game video, not highlight compilations...real video--good plays and bad). The guy is just amazing. Size, speed, quickness, anticipation, play recognition, instincts, the power with which he tackles and hits people. He looks like Lawrence Taylor. This is in no way a nock on Miller (who I'm not a HUGE fan of due to his weak tackling...can he really bring down Big Ben or Steven Jackson???). Rather this is a reflection of my view of Quinn. No denying Miller's quickness and ability to get into the backfield. But Quinn, IMO, is a very very rare prospect.

Well the things you've listed Miller stacks up right next to Quinn:

Size - Well 6'2" 240 isn't that much smaller, James Harrison and Elvis Dumerville don't exactly have ideal size either.

Speed - No doubt Miller has that.

Quickness - No denying that one either.

Play recognition/anticipation - Miller has shown to recognize a screen and doesn't bite on play-action as easy. Hes also shown a variety moves to beat an O-lineman, inside or out.

Athleticism
- Miller is more than athletic enough to drop back into coverage or stand up in a 3-4, there's also no denying that one.

Power to beat tackles or shed blocks - If you've watched at least one game, you'd see he has the power to beat an OT around him, beat a Guard with an inside move. I think Miller's strength is very underrated, it might be due to the fact that hes mostly speed and doesn't have as big as size as you'd want in a DE. But no doubt he will over power and beat an O-lineman.

I don't get how you can say this kid tackles like hes playing two-hand touch, you don't win the Dick Butkus Award because you can't tackle. Can Miller bring down a Big Ben, I'd say so, he brought down Kaepernick and Ryan Mallet with ease, and both are just as big as Rothelisberger. In what little snaps hes shown in the Senior Bowl hes shown he can make plays, lets not forget he was named Defensive player of the game.

Close, its much closer than you think.
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
I don't think it's close....

Quinn>>>>>Miller

Why isn't it close???

There's a good amount of video on Quinn all over the internet (game video, not highlight compilations...real video--good plays and bad). The guy is just amazing. Size, speed, quickness, anticipation, play recognition, instincts, the power with which he tackles and hits people. He looks like Lawrence Taylor. This is in no way a nock on Miller (who I'm not a HUGE fan of due to his weak tackling...can he really bring down Big Ben or Steven Jackson???). Rather this is a reflection of my view of Quinn. No denying Miller's quickness and ability to get into the backfield. But Quinn, IMO, is a very very rare prospect.

Well the things you've listed Miller stacks up right next to Quinn:

Size - Well 6'2" 240 isn't that much smaller, James Harrison and Elvis Dumerville don't exactly have ideal size either.

Speed - No doubt Miller has that.

Quickness - No denying that one either.

Play recognition/anticipation - Miller has shown to recognize a screen and doesn't bite on play-action as easy. Hes also shown a variety moves to beat an O-lineman, inside or out.

Athleticism
- Miller is more than athletic enough to drop back into coverage or stand up in a 3-4, there's also no denying that one.

Power to beat tackles or shed blocks - If you've watched at least one game, you'd see he has the power to beat an OT around him, beat a Guard with an inside move. I think Miller's strength is very underrated, it might be due to the fact that hes mostly speed and doesn't have as big as size as you'd want in a DE. But no doubt he will over power and beat an O-lineman.

I don't get how you can say this kid tackles like hes playing two-hand touch, you don't win the Dick Butkus Award because you can't tackle. Can Miller bring down a Big Ben, I'd say so, he brought down Kaepernick and Ryan Mallet with ease, and both are just as big as Rothelisberger. In what little snaps hes shown in the Senior Bowl hes shown he can make plays, lets not forget he was named Defensive player of the game.

Close, its much closer than you think.

I like Von Miller, but there's a reason that prior to his suspension, Robert Quinn was in discussion as a top 3 pick in the whole draft.

Here are comparisons for the two players that I've thought about.

Von Miller = Julian Peterson
Robert Quinn = Demarcus Ware

JP and DW are both really good players, but I would take Quinn for our team. I like his size, quickness, and power. Not saying Von doesn't have all that, because he does, but I'll take Quinn for sure.
Originally posted by ninertico:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
I don't think it's close....

Quinn>>>>>Miller

This... all day long.

Quinn is a blazer in his own right, and unlike Miller, he can fight through blocks and is 260-ish lbs. Miller would get victimized in the run game and easily stoned if a blocker gets in front of him.

And he's a really poor tackler. Miller could be the greatest pass rusher of all time....if we were playing two hand touch...unfortunately we are not, and you have to be able to bring the ball carrier or QB down. This will limit his effectiveness at the next level IMO

I agree... and teams will use his speed against him with lots of misdirection also.

If we want to stick a light-weight with speed in there? Just throw Mays in on a 3 safety package and blitz him all day. Same difference... straight speed with the hope that he can run AROUND blocks.

Agreed. But I do like Miller because you can't argue the production. Still, Quinn is a different story. Unbelievable player.

Yeah, I do think Miller could become a wicked OLB for a 4-3 team, once he learns the ropes. Particularly for a 4-3 team that loves to send LB blitzes.

Weak at the POA? Miller, even against the run? There are times when BOTH players get engulfed and tied up in the "phone booth" as the analysts identify. I find it at least a questionable trait for Quinn given his size:

"Plays with leverage holding the edge. Displays a strong initial punch and uses hands well to discard blocks. Fights hard to work through blocks but still developing in terms of finding the ball and finishing plays. Can be engulfed by bigger and more powerful blockers when caught in a phone booth situation. Also will have problems anchoring when teams elect to run at him. Strong wrap-up tackler in confined areas. Going to have some limitations when caught in one-on-one situations in the open field though."

This is one of Quinn's run D scouting report. So size is not everything and Miller is still the better pass rusher by a mile. That last part says it all. Miller DOES recover and can run down the fastest QBs.

It's OK though as I said before, Quinn's Combine will be as crazy or better than Miller's. AZ can haz him!

"two-hand" touch... good one! Miller needs to bulk up more to handle the weight coming at him, but he can and will. His technique against the run is much more sound than Quinn's especially holding the edge on sweeps and screens.

I understand both of your points and agree to a certain degree. I would rather have Miller than Quinn. Yet, I would still be happy with Quinn. But to imply that Miller will fail at the NFL run game is preposterous.

I disagree with the run defense assessment. Quinn is effective at holding the edge. While Miller has the speed to chase down runs, that speed and his aggressive style usually leads to him overpursuing and running himself right past athe ball carrier and out of the play.
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by ninertico:


I understand both of your points and agree to a certain degree. I would rather have Miller than Quinn. Yet, I would still be happy with Quinn. But to imply that Miller will fail at the NFL run game is preposterous.

Not preposterous... it's common sense. Miller is not an imposing figure and lacks legit sand in the rear to anchor. He will get bowled over by blockers if he can not use his speed to go around them. He's just like Taylor Mays, except with appealing production as a rusher... as a college rusher.

Anyway... your opinion is as good as any here, so I will respect it and just disagree with it. (and not further argue it)

But, but, sand in the Butt. I do agree to disagree. We'll see. I was afraid of that same issue, but now that I have seen his technique, I will say that as long as he works on adding more junk to his trunk, I think he'll be fine. He certainly has the room for it.

Still Oldman, I truly believe his skills will translate to the NFL very well and he will be successful. For me, I love the way this kid plays and his recovery speed blows my mind without acknowledging his explosive first step. I see him as THE weapon for Fangio more so than any other prospect except for possibly Peterson. Fairley and Bowers seem like 4-3 prospects. Bowers is the only other candidate I can see on Baalke's board that "fits" in the top seven.

Instead it will be Peterson, Amukamara as the CB candidates. And of course, your friends and mine, Quinn and Miller at 3-4 WILL.
First of all what are we drafting here for position wise? DE or OLB. If OLB then Von Miller, it is more of his natural position. As for size Miller can add 10 more pounds to that frame easily. It is laughable that people only use size or speed and never take into account production against competition. There are many small sized players that have done well. As there are slow players etc. like Spielman. Miller is fast and stronger than people think, and has production numbers.

Quinn has been playing DE, yes I read he has the potential to be OLB, but I am tired of converting people. We have had more failures doing this conversion thing. If it is at DE then you can make an argument. The other thing I'm wary of is not so much he took money, hell it was rule and not the law, to say he should no better, well not saying it is right, but it ain't easy for a poor kid. Sorry for digressing, but can he recover from not having played a whole year? It is basically one and done. Plus with the CBA, he has the potential of not having suited up a whole 1 1/2 years. Plus the last time we drafted a guy from NC, it did not turn out very well. I sense bust with this pick.
Originally posted by ninertico:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
I don't think it's close....

Quinn>>>>>Miller

This... all day long.

Quinn is a blazer in his own right, and unlike Miller, he can fight through blocks and is 260-ish lbs. Miller would get victimized in the run game and easily stoned if a blocker gets in front of him.

And he's a really poor tackler. Miller could be the greatest pass rusher of all time....if we were playing two hand touch...unfortunately we are not, and you have to be able to bring the ball carrier or QB down. This will limit his effectiveness at the next level IMO

I agree... and teams will use his speed against him with lots of misdirection also.

If we want to stick a light-weight with speed in there? Just throw Mays in on a 3 safety package and blitz him all day. Same difference... straight speed with the hope that he can run AROUND blocks.

Agreed. But I do like Miller because you can't argue the production. Still, Quinn is a different story. Unbelievable player.

Yeah, I do think Miller could become a wicked OLB for a 4-3 team, once he learns the ropes. Particularly for a 4-3 team that loves to send LB blitzes.

Weak at the POA? Miller, even against the run? There are times when BOTH players get engulfed and tied up in the "phone booth" as the analysts identify. I find it at least a questionable trait for Quinn given his size:

"Plays with leverage holding the edge. Displays a strong initial punch and uses hands well to discard blocks. Fights hard to work through blocks but still developing in terms of finding the ball and finishing plays. Can be engulfed by bigger and more powerful blockers when caught in a phone booth situation. Also will have problems anchoring when teams elect to run at him. Strong wrap-up tackler in confined areas. Going to have some limitations when caught in one-on-one situations in the open field though."

This is one of Quinn's run D scouting report. So size is not everything and Miller is still the better pass rusher by a mile. That last part says it all. Miller DOES recover and can run down the fastest QBs.

It's OK though as I said before, Quinn's Combine will be as crazy or better than Miller's. AZ can haz him!

"two-hand" touch... good one! Miller needs to bulk up more to handle the weight coming at him, but he can and will. His technique against the run is much more sound than Quinn's especially holding the edge on sweeps and screens.

I understand both of your points and agree to a certain degree. I would rather have Miller than Quinn. Yet, I would still be happy with Quinn. But to imply that Miller will fail at the NFL run game is preposterous.

I don't think Miller will fail, and I think he's a tremendous prospect from a speed and quickness standpoint, but I just see a lot if QB pressures, and not a ton of actual sacks. I also think when Miller does sack a QB the QB will get up and say "f***! just lost a play", whereas when Quinn sacks a QB he'll remain on the ground, then slowly get up, and think "f***, I hope they're not calling another pass play right now.". Like I said, there's great game footage of Quinn. Watch him play. He's just so freaking powerful and athletic. Devastating tackler, and has great instincts.
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
I don't think it's close....

Quinn>>>>>Miller

Why isn't it close???

There's a good amount of video on Quinn all over the internet (game video, not highlight compilations...real video--good plays and bad). The guy is just amazing. Size, speed, quickness, anticipation, play recognition, instincts, the power with which he tackles and hits people. He looks like Lawrence Taylor. This is in no way a nock on Miller (who I'm not a HUGE fan of due to his weak tackling...can he really bring down Big Ben or Steven Jackson???). Rather this is a reflection of my view of Quinn. No denying Miller's quickness and ability to get into the backfield. But Quinn, IMO, is a very very rare prospect.

Well the things you've listed Miller stacks up right next to Quinn:

Size - Well 6'2" 240 isn't that much smaller, James Harrison and Elvis Dumerville don't exactly have ideal size either.

Speed - No doubt Miller has that.

Quickness - No denying that one either.

Play recognition/anticipation - Miller has shown to recognize a screen and doesn't bite on play-action as easy. Hes also shown a variety moves to beat an O-lineman, inside or out.

Athleticism
- Miller is more than athletic enough to drop back into coverage or stand up in a 3-4, there's also no denying that one.

Power to beat tackles or shed blocks - If you've watched at least one game, you'd see he has the power to beat an OT around him, beat a Guard with an inside move. I think Miller's strength is very underrated, it might be due to the fact that hes mostly speed and doesn't have as big as size as you'd want in a DE. But no doubt he will over power and beat an O-lineman.

I don't get how you can say this kid tackles like hes playing two-hand touch, you don't win the Dick Butkus Award because you can't tackle. Can Miller bring down a Big Ben, I'd say so, he brought down Kaepernick and Ryan Mallet with ease, and both are just as big as Rothelisberger. In what little snaps hes shown in the Senior Bowl hes shown he can make plays, lets not forget he was named Defensive player of the game.

Close, its much closer than you think.

Size isn't everything, but to say Miller and Quinn have similar size is like saying DeSean Jackson and Andre Johnson have similar size. And Kaepernick and Big Ben are similar size? WHhhhhhhaaaaaatttttt?????? Big Ben is one of the strongest QBs to ever play the game, and is very difficult to bring down. Kaepernick has the smallest legs I've ever seen on a QB. Miller has things to like about him, but these size comparisons are preposterous.
More info....they're both ranked # 5 & # 6 for what it's worth. click on the name for more.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/scouting_department.html

[ Edited by highway49 on Feb 3, 2011 at 15:14:23 ]
can't go wrong with either. But gotta go with Quinn first personally.
Originally posted by WillistheWall:
Yeah but just because he took some money doesn't mean he's a rapist or a dog killer or anything. Technically it's wrong and it was selfish but he probably didn't think he'd get caught and it ddn't hurt anyone if he hadn't.

I think he took a watch, no actual cash, right? Not that it makes a huge difference but if we got this up in arms about a 20 year old kid that received $5-6,000 in things that the NCAA says isn't allowed we'd be talking this way about A LOT of NFL draft picks every year.
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