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MadDog Big 200 Board- Post Senior Bowl Edition

Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by bigwads:
I didn't see the game, but I take it you thought Iupati played well to keep him in the first round.

Like MD has been saying, Iupati's play in the game has less to do with his stock than his performance through the week. Which I agree with no doubt. But the hype is what I don't buy into and not just by the posters of the Zone, but from Mayock as well. #1 offensive Guard in this draft, yes, #1 offensive lineman, no way.

Thanks for the updates. I have been keeping any eye on the commentary and remarks about the practices and I heard Iupati was dominating people. Senior bowl practices are much more important than the games so I hear what you are are saying.

If he was as dominate in the practices as the blogs have said than regardless of the game he is still a 1st rounder.
Originally posted by SWAGG-ER:
SO let me get this straight MD.

You drop Mays because he struggled in practice but excelled in the game.

AND

You raise Iupati because he excelled in practice but struggled in the game.



I'm struggling to see the logic.

Mays had a mixed game yesterday. He missed a number of tackles, including two early on where he went for the hit and didn't wrap up. These are thing that can be corrected at the next level, but he has a bad habit of trying to make the big hit, and not complete the tackle.

He did make an interception, but I wouldn't call the play anything other than ordinary. He was sitting down in coverage, and the ball was poorly thrown. It was a play that was made, and it was a good play. I just didn't see anything special about the play.

But, I digress. The practice sessions are the key to the Senior Bowl week. And, Mays simply struggled being able to cover any of the wide receivers. The word is that he is really stiff in the hips, and is really a guy who should move to SS or OLB. I did not read one positive review.

As for Iupati, once again, the word is that he had a tremendous week at the Senior Bowl. People raved about his play, strength, mobility, etc. throughout the week. The game is simply not that valuable in the overall evaluation for the week. Surely, there are things that Iupati needs to work on, but he was one of the stars of the week.

In other words, it is much, much better to stink in the game than in the practice. I know this rund contrary to what we would normally think, but that is how teams grade players for the week.
Originally posted by DaveWilcox:
Tebow at around 43 to the Jags is very generous.. If evaluated purely on QB potential he would be a 4th rounder or worse. Tebow was the worst QB in the Seniorbowl..

As a QB is just not very NFL ready. Can't take a snap, can't drop back, can't read defenses, long delivery, wobbly passes. Holds ball too low. He is also not very fast and has no wiggle making him ill-suited to running the wildcat.

If his name weren't Tebow and he were evaluated as just any other player, nobody would even be talking about him.

I am with you on the generosity of Tebow going at 43. Here is how I see this pick going down. Nobody is going to draft the kid in the first round, and the Jags would be crucified for burning a first rounder on him.

However, they have to sell tickets, or will be moved to another city. Jacksonville averaged less than 40,000 people per game, and the one guy who can sell tickets is Tebow. They can get away with using their second rounder on him, even though it is still WAY too early.

I wouldn't touch him any time before the 5th round, but I am not the one seeing 40,000 empty seats every Sunday.
Originally posted by kronik:
Has Jason Fox's stock really dropped that far down? I know he's been battling shoulder problems but he is a very talented player.

I like Fox a lot, but have placed him in a very conservative place right now until two things are resolved.

First, he is coming back from knee surgery, and he needs to prove that the knee is sound, and he can work out well in the next couple months.

Second, I have concerns that the combine will reveal a problem with his heart. He had a heart murmur before one of his games this year, and this may be an issue that pops up when he goes through medical exams at the combine.

I hope I am wrong on these things. If he clears his medical, and looks sharp in drills, he probably is a top 80 pick.
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
So, MD, based on your board:
R1a Bulaga OT
R1b Iupati OG
R2 Jacoby Ford WR/KR
R3 Myron Rolle S
R4 Devin Ross CB
R5 Eric Norwood OLB
R6 Garrett Graham TE/FB
R7 Reggie Carter ILB

Will Norwood fall that far? Rounds 3 and 4 could reverse positions with Brandon Ghee, CB going in R4 and Devin Ross, CB in R5

I love Norwood as a college player, but see very little chance he is going to be selected in the top 100 picks. So, to me, he's looking in that 101-150 pick range.

Tough Senior Bowl week for him. Just didn't have much explosion, and struggled in coverage.
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by SWAGG-ER:
SO let me get this straight MD.

You drop Mays because he struggled in practice but excelled in the game.

AND

You raise Iupati because he excelled in practice but struggled in the game.



I'm struggling to see the logic.

Mays had a mixed game yesterday. He missed a number of tackles, including two early on where he went for the hit and didn't wrap up. These are thing that can be corrected at the next level, but he has a bad habit of trying to make the big hit, and not complete the tackle.

He did make an interception, but I wouldn't call the play anything other than ordinary. He was sitting down in coverage, and the ball was poorly thrown. It was a play that was made, and it was a good play. I just didn't see anything special about the play.

But, I digress. The practice sessions are the key to the Senior Bowl week. And, Mays simply struggled being able to cover any of the wide receivers. The word is that he is really stiff in the hips, and is really a guy who should move to SS or OLB. I did not read one positive review.

As for Iupati, once again, the word is that he had a tremendous week at the Senior Bowl. People raved about his play, strength, mobility, etc. throughout the week. The game is simply not that valuable in the overall evaluation for the week. Surely, there are things that Iupati needs to work on, but he was one of the stars of the week.

In other words, it is much, much better to stink in the game than in the practice. I know this rund contrary to what we would normally think, but that is how teams grade players for the week.

He was asked to cover them in single man coverage, correct? Something no SS in the nfl is ever asked to do. He does have "stiff hips", but so do most SS, thats why they come down in the box and support the run. He has some coverage issues but with better coaching he can make the transition. Also lets not forget his potential low low LOW 4.3 40 time. That kind of speed is more than enough to cover and recover better than a SS who runs a 4.5-4.6 with better less stiff hips.

As for Iupati, do you actually think he showed enough in these practices to be more than a LG in the nfl? I mean he has the measurables to be anything on the line but the bottom line is he doesnt have the feet or punch to do so. So, if we know he's only going to be a LG, can't we find better value than him @ either of our first round picks? I'd have to say absolutely we can find better value.
Is that a coincidence that Williams is at 13 and Iupati is at 17? Because that is ideal for us, IMO.

One thing I think people are overlooking with Iupati is his quickness. Players like Hutchinson and Mankins were picked high partly because they were powerful but also had some mobility.

Iupati is powerful too, but he has INCREDIBLE movement ability. In other words, while sharing their strength, he blows prospects like Hutchinson and Mankins out of the water with his agility. It is uncanny, perhaps unique, especially for a man of his size.

Is he worth gambling the farm for, because he has unique abilities? No, but 16/17 is more than a fair price.
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by DaveWilcox:
Tebow at around 43 to the Jags is very generous.. If evaluated purely on QB potential he would be a 4th rounder or worse. Tebow was the worst QB in the Seniorbowl..

As a QB is just not very NFL ready. Can't take a snap, can't drop back, can't read defenses, long delivery, wobbly passes. Holds ball too low. He is also not very fast and has no wiggle making him ill-suited to running the wildcat.

If his name weren't Tebow and he were evaluated as just any other player, nobody would even be talking about him.

I am with you on the generosity of Tebow going at 43. Here is how I see this pick going down. Nobody is going to draft the kid in the first round, and the Jags would be crucified for burning a first rounder on him.

However, they have to sell tickets, or will be moved to another city. Jacksonville averaged less than 40,000 people per game, and the one guy who can sell tickets is Tebow. They can get away with using their second rounder on him, even though it is still WAY too early.

I wouldn't touch him any time before the 5th round, but I am not the one seeing 40,000 empty seats every Sunday.

I understand the rationale of the Jags taking him.. It really would be a desperation move on their part..

If the Jags want to puts fans in the seats, they should put a winning team on the field.

Personally, I tried to unravel the logic in the Jags taking Tebow. He doesn't improve the team and I don't believe Jags fans will buy tickets to see him standing on the sidelines, wearing a baseball hat or holding a clipboard..

If Tebow is sersiously the last and best hope for saving the Jags franchise in Jacksonville. THe NFL should just award Tebow to them.

Can you say LA Jaguars??????????
Originally posted by DaveWilcox:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by DaveWilcox:
Tebow at around 43 to the Jags is very generous.. If evaluated purely on QB potential he would be a 4th rounder or worse. Tebow was the worst QB in the Seniorbowl..

As a QB is just not very NFL ready. Can't take a snap, can't drop back, can't read defenses, long delivery, wobbly passes. Holds ball too low. He is also not very fast and has no wiggle making him ill-suited to running the wildcat.

If his name weren't Tebow and he were evaluated as just any other player, nobody would even be talking about him.

I am with you on the generosity of Tebow going at 43. Here is how I see this pick going down. Nobody is going to draft the kid in the first round, and the Jags would be crucified for burning a first rounder on him.

However, they have to sell tickets, or will be moved to another city. Jacksonville averaged less than 40,000 people per game, and the one guy who can sell tickets is Tebow. They can get away with using their second rounder on him, even though it is still WAY too early.

I wouldn't touch him any time before the 5th round, but I am not the one seeing 40,000 empty seats every Sunday.

I understand the rationale of the Jags taking him.. It really would be a desperation move on their part..

If the Jags want to puts fans in the seats, they should put a winning team on the field.

Personally, I tried to unravel the logic in the Jags taking Tebow. He doesn't improve the team and I don't believe Jags fans will buy tickets to see him standing on the sidelines, wearing a baseball hat or holding a clipboard..

If Tebow is sersiously the last and best hope for saving the Jags franchise in Jacksonville. THe NFL should just award Tebow to them.

Can you say LA Jaguars??????????

Agree
Thanks again, sir, for your solid contribution to the Zone.

Great work MD!
I love the Irish. That being said, I'm a big Sam Young fan. What does he need to improve on to move up your big board? I think he brings great value as a middle round pick and he can become a very good starting RT in the NFL. What is your take?
Originally posted by Dblj55:
Great work MD!
I love the Irish. That being said, I'm a big Sam Young fan. What does he need to improve on to move up your big board? I think he brings great value as a middle round pick and he can become a very good starting RT in the NFL. What is your take?


I'll let MD answer in detail, but Sam Young to me is going to be nothing but a liability at the next level. He's too slow and lacks footwork to be outside in an OT and his height is a detriment to moving inside. Great training camp fodder for a couple of years maybe.
As always, excellent work. I would probably add Lonyae Miller, RB from Fresno St., to the list somewhere as I think he showed enough size/speed/ability to warrant a 5th-6th round pick.
  • dj43
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Originally posted by BrianGO:
Is that a coincidence that Williams is at 13 and Iupati is at 17? Because that is ideal for us, IMO.

One thing I think people are overlooking with Iupati is his quickness. Players like Hutchinson and Mankins were picked high partly because they were powerful but also had some mobility.

Iupati is powerful too, but he has INCREDIBLE movement ability. In other words, while sharing their strength, he blows prospects like Hutchinson and Mankins out of the water with his agility. It is uncanny, perhaps unique, especially for a man of his size.

Is he worth gambling the farm for, because he has unique abilities? No, but 16/17 is more than a fair price.
In a league that continues to move even further towards a passing league, agility in the OL will be of increasingly value. In pass protection, a strong yet stiff player will struggle with all the blitz packages that defenses dial up. That is one reason Baas has struggled so much. With Iupati you get a very mobile player who is also strong - subtle but important difference.

When I look at what the Jets have done drafting Ferguson and Mangold very high, both of whom have excellent mobility, I see a wise GM and personnel department that understands how the game is now played. I hope Singletary/McCloughan have been paying attention. If he is available at either numbers, I would pick him.

Frankly, if his combine numbers are as good as I expect, he might go before 13.
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by SWAGG-ER:
SO let me get this straight MD.

You drop Mays because he struggled in practice but excelled in the game.

AND

You raise Iupati because he excelled in practice but struggled in the game.



I'm struggling to see the logic.

Mays had a mixed game yesterday. He missed a number of tackles, including two early on where he went for the hit and didn't wrap up. These are thing that can be corrected at the next level, but he has a bad habit of trying to make the big hit, and not complete the tackle.

He did make an interception, but I wouldn't call the play anything other than ordinary. He was sitting down in coverage, and the ball was poorly thrown. It was a play that was made, and it was a good play. I just didn't see anything special about the play.

But, I digress. The practice sessions are the key to the Senior Bowl week. And, Mays simply struggled being able to cover any of the wide receivers. The word is that he is really stiff in the hips, and is really a guy who should move to SS or OLB. I did not read one positive review.

As for Iupati, once again, the word is that he had a tremendous week at the Senior Bowl. People raved about his play, strength, mobility, etc. throughout the week. The game is simply not that valuable in the overall evaluation for the week. Surely, there are things that Iupati needs to work on, but he was one of the stars of the week.

In other words, it is much, much better to stink in the game than in the practice. I know this rund contrary to what we would normally think, but that is how teams grade players for the week.

I get what you're saying, and it coincides with what I saw. Iupati has a great upside, with some things he needs to work on. He does not appear to be the RT the Niners are looking for, so if they take him, they'll also need a RT prospect as well.

As for Mays, would he be an adequate replacement for M. Lewis at SS? Play him in the box most of the time, & use his speed to chase down plays. Lewis had concussion problems last year and may be done.

I wouldn't take Mays in the first, doesn't seem like good value. Even the mid second may be too high.
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