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What should we do in the first round?

What should we do in the first round?

Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
Originally posted by TheRatMan13:
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
For those I've frustrated regarding Spiller, see Krizay's post above. My post didn't say that Spiller would be only a returner, but compared his relative value to that of a guard. No matter how you slice it, Spiller would be a backup RB for the Niners.
signed, Thick Skull

It is a good thing to have two capable running backs on a team. Whenever Gore came off the field, defenses didnt have to worry about us running the ball. Most of the playoff teams use two backs frequently, and pretty effectively.

- Indianapolis: Brown and Addai
- New Orleans: Thomas, Bush, and Bell
- Arizona: Hightower and Wells (when they arent fumbling)
- Minnesota: AP and Taylor
- New York: Jones and Green (add Washington when he's healthy)
- Dallas: Barber and Jones
- Baltimore: Rice and McGahee
- New England: Maroney, Morris, and Faulk

Every one of those teams use 2 backs a lot more effectively than the Niners do, and only a handful of them are considered "running teams". So, if the passing teams know that you have to have a capable backup RB, then why dont the Niners when they want to pound the football?

If the Niners' OL can create running lanes, then fine. But until then, it doesn't matter how many RBs you have.

Which is why I want another OL with the 2nd first round pick, and another one in FA. The running game was the biggest problem with the offense this year. They didnt confuse any defenses with it this year. Getting an upgrade on the line, along with a back that can be moved all over the field, will make a huge difference.
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
Originally posted by PhillyNiner:
I am with Ghost....I want a tackle and who ever is available of Spiller/Hayden in the first. Guards can be found in round 2 and in free agency with ease. Tackles, shutdown corners, and guys with the potential of Chris Johnson are far more unlikely.

The Niners already have two 2nd R guards in Baas and Rachal and they're not cutting it. Why should we simply add another 2nd rounder to the mix?

Because every team in the league values guards as second round prospects...ANY guard in the first round is considered a pretty substantial reach. There are alot of Guards on the street for alot less than first round money better than Baas and you guys should relax on Rachal a bit. All players should get three years to pan out, especially when they come out early. I get that everyone just loves Lupati, but Guards just easier to come bye than alot of other positions on the field.
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
Originally posted by TheRatMan13:
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
For those I've frustrated regarding Spiller, see Krizay's post above. My post didn't say that Spiller would be only a returner, but compared his relative value to that of a guard. No matter how you slice it, Spiller would be a backup RB for the Niners.
signed, Thick Skull

It is a good thing to have two capable running backs on a team. Whenever Gore came off the field, defenses didnt have to worry about us running the ball. Most of the playoff teams use two backs frequently, and pretty effectively.

- Indianapolis: Brown and Addai
- New Orleans: Thomas, Bush, and Bell
- Arizona: Hightower and Wells (when they arent fumbling)
- Minnesota: AP and Taylor
- New York: Jones and Green (add Washington when he's healthy)
- Dallas: Barber and Jones
- Baltimore: Rice and McGahee
- New England: Maroney, Morris, and Faulk

Every one of those teams use 2 backs a lot more effectively than the Niners do, and only a handful of them are considered "running teams". So, if the passing teams know that you have to have a capable backup RB, then why dont the Niners when they want to pound the football?

If the Niners' OL can create running lanes, then fine. But until then, it doesn't matter how many RBs you have.

How can you realistically say our line isn't/can't/didn't create running lanes, when:

- as a team, we were tied for 11th overall in yards per rush average
- Gore himself had a 4.9 average
- Frank had 11 runs of 20+ yards (3rd only to Chris Johnson and Adrian Peterson)
- Gore also had 4 runs of 40+ yards (3rd only to CJ and Jamaal Charles)

And that's from a guy who has below average speed for a RB, can't beat anyone to the corner and often gets worn down as the game goes on. He did all of this with our supposed horrible o-line.

IMO, even if we made NO changes to the o-line (which I'm not advocating), and just added an explosive speed back like Spiller to the mix, those numbers, especially the long runs, will only increase.

Point being, there are creases that are being made by our line. However, two things can be equally true; the creases are there, but we don't always get a consistent push in the middle, especially on short yardage situations. Not only that, but often, defenses just play us in a box knowing we have no speed to threaten the edge. The fact that defenses see no need to defend the edges makes it extremely difficult for our line to create space for our RBs on the inside (everything is just plugged up), so it's not JUST our personnel (though that is one part of the problem).

A guy like Iupati could help tremendously in this area, but so could Maurkice Pouncey, John Asamoah, Rodger Saffold, John Jerry, etc., and they can likely be had outside of the 1st round. I just don't know how many C.J. Spiller's there are in this draft.
[ Edited by GhostofFredDean74 on Jan 28, 2010 at 2:09 PM ]
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
Originally posted by TheRatMan13:
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
For those I've frustrated regarding Spiller, see Krizay's post above. My post didn't say that Spiller would be only a returner, but compared his relative value to that of a guard. No matter how you slice it, Spiller would be a backup RB for the Niners.
signed, Thick Skull

It is a good thing to have two capable running backs on a team. Whenever Gore came off the field, defenses didnt have to worry about us running the ball. Most of the playoff teams use two backs frequently, and pretty effectively.

- Indianapolis: Brown and Addai
- New Orleans: Thomas, Bush, and Bell
- Arizona: Hightower and Wells (when they arent fumbling)
- Minnesota: AP and Taylor
- New York: Jones and Green (add Washington when he's healthy)
- Dallas: Barber and Jones
- Baltimore: Rice and McGahee
- New England: Maroney, Morris, and Faulk

Every one of those teams use 2 backs a lot more effectively than the Niners do, and only a handful of them are considered "running teams". So, if the passing teams know that you have to have a capable backup RB, then why dont the Niners when they want to pound the football?

If the Niners' OL can create running lanes, then fine. But until then, it doesn't matter how many RBs you have.

How can you realistically say our line isn't/can't/didn't create running lanes, when:

- as a team, we were tied for 11th overall in yards per rush average
- Gore himself had a 4.9 average
- Frank had 11 runs of 20+ yards (3rd only to Chris Johnson and Adrian Peterson)
- Gore also had 4 runs of 40+ yards (3rd only to CJ and Jamaal Charles)

And that's from a guy who has below average speed for a RB, can't beat anyone to the corner and often gets worn down as the game goes on. He did all of this with our supposed horrible o-line.

IMO, even if we made NO changes to the o-line (which I'm not advocating), and just added an explosive speed back like Spiller to the mix, those numbers, especially the long runs, will only increase.

Point being, there are creases that are being made by our line. However, two things can be equally true; the creases are there, but we don't always get a consistent push in the middle, especially on short yardage situations. Not only that, but often, defenses just play us in a box knowing we have no speed to threaten the edge. The fact that defenses see no need to defend the edges makes it extremely difficult for our line to create space for our RBs on the inside (everything is just plugged up), so it's not JUST our personnel (though that is one part of the problem).

A guy like Iupati could help tremendously in this area, but so could Maurkice Pouncey, John Asamoah, Rodger Saffold, John Jerry, etc., and they can likely be had outside of the 1st round. I just don't know how many C.J. Spiller's there are in this draft.

I can't tell if you want to replace average-speed, worn down Gore. If you prefer Spiller to Gore, then perhaps you'll have to justify that. Meanwhile, the OL was 30th in number of negative runs up the middle. They were also 20th in QB hits and 22nd in sacks.

I believe you're also making the point that there's a bigger dropoff in talent between Spiller and other returners/RBs (e.g. McCluster) than for Iupati and the other guards. I don't believe that's been shown. Most Bowl reports seem to note the opposite. Also, Iupati would start from day one, the other guards would probably compete with Baas and Rachal, thereby slowing the teamwork so vital to a successful OL.

My hope is the Niners will somehow fill the starting RT or guard before the draft.
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
Originally posted by TheRatMan13:
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
For those I've frustrated regarding Spiller, see Krizay's post above. My post didn't say that Spiller would be only a returner, but compared his relative value to that of a guard. No matter how you slice it, Spiller would be a backup RB for the Niners.
signed, Thick Skull

It is a good thing to have two capable running backs on a team. Whenever Gore came off the field, defenses didnt have to worry about us running the ball. Most of the playoff teams use two backs frequently, and pretty effectively.

- Indianapolis: Brown and Addai
- New Orleans: Thomas, Bush, and Bell
- Arizona: Hightower and Wells (when they arent fumbling)
- Minnesota: AP and Taylor
- New York: Jones and Green (add Washington when he's healthy)
- Dallas: Barber and Jones
- Baltimore: Rice and McGahee
- New England: Maroney, Morris, and Faulk

Every one of those teams use 2 backs a lot more effectively than the Niners do, and only a handful of them are considered "running teams". So, if the passing teams know that you have to have a capable backup RB, then why dont the Niners when they want to pound the football?

If the Niners' OL can create running lanes, then fine. But until then, it doesn't matter how many RBs you have.

How can you realistically say our line isn't/can't/didn't create running lanes, when:

- as a team, we were tied for 11th overall in yards per rush average
- Gore himself had a 4.9 average
- Frank had 11 runs of 20+ yards (3rd only to Chris Johnson and Adrian Peterson)
- Gore also had 4 runs of 40+ yards (3rd only to CJ and Jamaal Charles)

And that's from a guy who has below average speed for a RB, can't beat anyone to the corner and often gets worn down as the game goes on. He did all of this with our supposed horrible o-line.

IMO, even if we made NO changes to the o-line (which I'm not advocating), and just added an explosive speed back like Spiller to the mix, those numbers, especially the long runs, will only increase.

Point being, there are creases that are being made by our line. However, two things can be equally true; the creases are there, but we don't always get a consistent push in the middle, especially on short yardage situations. Not only that, but often, defenses just play us in a box knowing we have no speed to threaten the edge. The fact that defenses see no need to defend the edges makes it extremely difficult for our line to create space for our RBs on the inside (everything is just plugged up), so it's not JUST our personnel (though that is one part of the problem).

A guy like Iupati could help tremendously in this area, but so could Maurkice Pouncey, John Asamoah, Rodger Saffold, John Jerry, etc., and they can likely be had outside of the 1st round. I just don't know how many C.J. Spiller's there are in this draft.

I can't tell if you want to replace average-speed, worn down Gore. If you prefer Spiller to Gore, then perhaps you'll have to justify that. Meanwhile, the OL was 30th in number of negative runs up the middle. They were also 20th in QB hits and 22nd in sacks.

I believe you're also making the point that there's a bigger dropoff in talent between Spiller and other returners/RBs (e.g. McCluster) than for Iupati and the other guards. I don't believe that's been shown. Most Bowl reports seem to note the opposite. Also, Iupati would start from day one, the other guards would probably compete with Baas and Rachal, thereby slowing the teamwork so vital to a successful OL.

My hope is the Niners will somehow fill the starting RT or guard before the draft.

You never addressed my point about Gore being a very productive (and even a pro-bowl) RB, even though you believe our o-line was unable to create any creases for our RB.

Did Frank do this all by himself? Ok, if you believe that, what makes you think a guy like Spiller who's even quicker/faster than Gore, can't do it by himself too (and maybe even better, given his speed/quickness/ability)? And if you don't believe Gore did this all by himself, then you have to agree that our line did in fact create enough creases for Gore to have a pro-bowl year and be one of the top ball carriers in the league in terms of yards per carry.

You just can't have it both ways.

I don't think in terms of Gore versus Spiller...I think in terms of Gore AND Spiller both making plays in the running game for the next 2 years, then I think of Spiller and "whomever" once Frank leaves as a free agent after 2011.

I also don't think that McCluster is a legitimate full-time RB in this league, whereas I don't know of anyone who DOESN'T think Spiller is a full-time RB in the NFL. I'd be happy with McCluster and all that he brings to a team, but I'd be even happier with Spiller (so it's a matter of preference for me).

Again, I'm not opposed to drafting Iupati and would be very happy with our o-line...I just think we can go in a different direction (RT and Spiller in the 1st, OG in the 2nd) and still get to where we all want to go.
Ghost:
A slightly different approach to hopefully accomplish the same purpose. Would you see Spiller, Graham, Asamoah, Saffold as a workable group? Would Saffold be enough for our RT?
I say we draft the linemen and call it a day. They are historically the safest picks in the 1st round and we need help desperately. With the new coaches and some blue chip talent we could really solidify that part of the team.
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
I can't tell if you want to replace average-speed, worn down Gore. If you prefer Spiller to Gore, then perhaps you'll have to justify that. Meanwhile, the OL was 30th in number of negative runs up the middle. They were also 20th in QB hits and 22nd in sacks.

I believe you're also making the point that there's a bigger dropoff in talent between Spiller and other returners/RBs (e.g. McCluster) than for Iupati and the other guards. I don't believe that's been shown. Most Bowl reports seem to note the opposite. Also, Iupati would start from day one, the other guards would probably compete with Baas and Rachal, thereby slowing the teamwork so vital to a successful OL.

My hope is the Niners will somehow fill the starting RT or guard before the draft.

You never addressed my point about Gore being a very productive (and even a pro-bowl) RB, even though you believe our o-line was unable to create any creases for our RB.

Did Frank do this all by himself? Ok, if you believe that, what makes you think a guy like Spiller who's even quicker/faster than Gore, can't do it by himself too (and maybe even better, given his speed/quickness/ability)? And if you don't believe Gore did this all by himself, then you have to agree that our line did in fact create enough creases for Gore to have a pro-bowl year and be one of the top ball carriers in the league in terms of yards per carry.

You just can't have it both ways.

I don't think in terms of Gore versus Spiller...I think in terms of Gore AND Spiller both making plays in the running game for the next 2 years, then I think of Spiller and "whomever" once Frank leaves as a free agent after 2011.

I also don't think that McCluster is a legitimate full-time RB in this league, whereas I don't know of anyone who DOESN'T think Spiller is a full-time RB in the NFL. I'd be happy with McCluster and all that he brings to a team, but I'd be even happier with Spiller (so it's a matter of preference for me).

Again, I'm not opposed to drafting Iupati and would be very happy with our o-line...I just think we can go in a different direction (RT and Spiller in the 1st, OG in the 2nd) and still get to where we all want to go.

I addressed the issue with the offensive stats (very offensive) of 30th in neg. yards up the middle. Don't you remember the great sounds of "thud" from the Niners rushing attack.

You prop up the OL by denigrating Gore. Much of the Niners' rushing yardage was against Seattle and the Rams, two of the worst teams in the NFL, and we played them twice each. Honestly, your argument suggests that we shouldn't draft an OL or RB. We're doing just fine.

As you said, Gore is going to the Pro Bowl, not anyone from the OL. If you're pushing Spiller as a full-time RB for the Niners, that means you want to start him and have Gore be the backup. Good luck with that.
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
I can't tell if you want to replace average-speed, worn down Gore. If you prefer Spiller to Gore, then perhaps you'll have to justify that. Meanwhile, the OL was 30th in number of negative runs up the middle. They were also 20th in QB hits and 22nd in sacks.

I believe you're also making the point that there's a bigger dropoff in talent between Spiller and other returners/RBs (e.g. McCluster) than for Iupati and the other guards. I don't believe that's been shown. Most Bowl reports seem to note the opposite. Also, Iupati would start from day one, the other guards would probably compete with Baas and Rachal, thereby slowing the teamwork so vital to a successful OL.

My hope is the Niners will somehow fill the starting RT or guard before the draft.

You never addressed my point about Gore being a very productive (and even a pro-bowl) RB, even though you believe our o-line was unable to create any creases for our RB.

Did Frank do this all by himself? Ok, if you believe that, what makes you think a guy like Spiller who's even quicker/faster than Gore, can't do it by himself too (and maybe even better, given his speed/quickness/ability)? And if you don't believe Gore did this all by himself, then you have to agree that our line did in fact create enough creases for Gore to have a pro-bowl year and be one of the top ball carriers in the league in terms of yards per carry.

You just can't have it both ways.

I don't think in terms of Gore versus Spiller...I think in terms of Gore AND Spiller both making plays in the running game for the next 2 years, then I think of Spiller and "whomever" once Frank leaves as a free agent after 2011.

I also don't think that McCluster is a legitimate full-time RB in this league, whereas I don't know of anyone who DOESN'T think Spiller is a full-time RB in the NFL. I'd be happy with McCluster and all that he brings to a team, but I'd be even happier with Spiller (so it's a matter of preference for me).

Again, I'm not opposed to drafting Iupati and would be very happy with our o-line...I just think we can go in a different direction (RT and Spiller in the 1st, OG in the 2nd) and still get to where we all want to go.

I addressed the issue with the offensive stats (very offensive) of 30th in neg. yards up the middle. Don't you remember the great sounds of "thud" from the Niners rushing attack.

You prop up the OL by denigrating Gore. Much of the Niners' rushing yardage was against Seattle and the Rams, two of the worst teams in the NFL, and we played them twice each. Honestly, your argument suggests that we shouldn't draft an OL or RB. We're doing just fine.

As you said, Gore is going to the Pro Bowl, not anyone from the OL. If you're pushing Spiller as a full-time RB for the Niners, that means you want to start him and have Gore be the backup. Good luck with that.

You're not reading what I'm writing, and you're not understanding what I'm trying to say at all...it's like you don't even want to understand what I'm saying.

I don't doubt that we were 30th in negative run yardage up the middle. But if you think that's JUST because of a bad o-line, you really don't know much about football. Stop and think about this for one moment, please. If a team can't beat you at the edge, in other words, if they don't have RBs that are fast enough to get to the corner and turn upfield, what would you do as a defense? Why, you would stack the middle of the field all day long wouldn't you? You know they can't outrun you, so they have no choice but to power it up the middle and see if they can get a push. Any DC with half a brain would know to defend us this way, and that's part of the problem.

If you think that's denigrating Gore, or if you somehow think I don't like Frank, you're nuts. He's the only playmaker we've had the last few years and I have nothing but respect and admiration for him. But if you're honest with yourself, you'd know what I'm talking about when I say he doesn't have the speed to threaten teams at the edge, so they don't worry about that when playing us...we have ZERO speed in the backfield, so they defense us accordingly.

Lastly, I don't see anybody, not Spiller or anybody else, starting over Gore anytime soon. I'm not stupid so don't mistake me for someone who is. I also know that it really doesn't matter who "starts" the game or even who finishes, it's about production every time you step on the field. So if Spiller only got 7-10 carries, 2-5 catches a game, 2-4 kickoffs and 3-5 punt returns a game, that's still 14-24 touches for a guy with world class speed and top-tier playmaking ability.

That may not be enough for you, but it works for me.

Since you don't want to read or understand what I'm writing, I'll state it again as clearly as I possibly can. I WOULDN'T MIND AT ALL IF WE DRAFTED A RT AND IUPATI IN THE FIRST ROUND. I SEE THE LOGIC IN IT, I REALLY DO, REGARDLESS OF THE WORDS YOU'RE TRYING TO PUT IN MY MOUTH. I just think there's another solution that addresses both issues (lack of speed at RB and adding personnel to the o-line).

Finally, I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right....I'm just saying, I believe there's another way and I've tried to explain what that way is and why I think it makes sense.

There, is that clear enough for you?
[ Edited by GhostofFredDean74 on Jan 28, 2010 at 11:56 PM ]
  • krizay
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 14,925
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:


You're not reading what I'm writing, and you're not understanding what I'm trying to say at all...it's like you don't even want to understand what I'm saying.

I don't doubt that we were 30th in negative run yardage up the middle. But if you think that's JUST because of a bad o-line, you really don't know much about football. Stop and think about this for one moment, please. If a team can't beat you at the edge, in other words, if they don't have RBs that are fast enough to get to the corner and turn upfield, what would you do as a defense? Why, you would stack the middle of the field all day long wouldn't you? You know they can't outrun you, so they have no choice but to power it up the middle and see if they can get a push. Any DC with half a brain would know to defend us this way, and that's part of the problem.

If you think that's denigrating Gore, or if you somehow think I don't like Frank, you're nuts. He's the only playmaker we've had the last few years and I have nothing but respect and admiration for him. But if you're honest with yourself, you'd know what I'm talking about when I say he doesn't have the speed to threaten teams at the edge, so they don't worry about that when playing us...we have ZERO speed in the backfield, so they defense us accordingly.

Lastly, I don't see anybody, not Spiller or anybody else, starting over Gore anytime soon. I'm not stupid so don't mistake me for someone who is. I also know that it really doesn't matter who "starts" the game or even who finishes, it's about production every time you step on the field. So if Spiller only got 7-10 carries, 2-5 catches a game, 2-4 kickoffs and 3-5 punt returns a game, that's still 14-24 touches for a guy with world class speed and top-tier playmaking ability.

That may not be enough for you, but it works for me.

Since you don't want to read or understand what I'm writing, I'll state it again as clearly as I possibly can. I WOULDN'T MIND AT ALL IF WE DRAFTED A RT AND IUPATI IN THE FIRST ROUND. I SEE THE LOGIC IN IT, I REALLY DO, REGARDLESS OF THE WORDS YOU'RE TRYING TO PUT IN MY MOUTH. I just think there's another solution that addresses both issues (lack of speed at RB and adding personnel to the o-line).

Finally, I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right....I'm just saying, I believe there's another way and I've tried to explain what that way is and why I think it makes sense.

There, is that clear enough for you?

I think alot of our problem regarding defenses stacking the box is the fact it seemed we call the same exact run play over and over and over again. I know your argument is that Coffee and Gore don't have the speed to threaten the outside. Which I'm not even going to try to argue. They was never given a chance to threaten outside to spread the box. I'm not going to sit here and say we will or won't if we draft Spiller. The bottom line is we need to expand our play calling in the run game regardless of if we have a fast guy or not.

IMO that was the bigger problem than lack of speed.
  • fryet
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 2,864
If the 49ers spend 2 firsts on OG and RT, then even if teams do stack the box, they may still have a hard time tackling Gore in the backfield. Keep in mind, the threat of the passing game can also keep a defense from focusing too much on the middle of the field - you don't have to use a speed RB to do it. Personally, I am excited about what Gore could do if he wasn't touched until after he was 2 yards past the line of scrimmage on a regular basis. If Singletary really wants a smash-mouth running team, then OG/RT really is the way to go. Spend a first on another RB next year.

On the other hand, if we were to draft RT at 13, and Iupati weren't available at 17, then I would have no problem grabbing Spiller. He would add a lot to the team as you described.
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:


You're not reading what I'm writing, and you're not understanding what I'm trying to say at all...it's like you don't even want to understand what I'm saying.

I don't doubt that we were 30th in negative run yardage up the middle. But if you think that's JUST because of a bad o-line, you really don't know much about football. Stop and think about this for one moment, please. If a team can't beat you at the edge, in other words, if they don't have RBs that are fast enough to get to the corner and turn upfield, what would you do as a defense? Why, you would stack the middle of the field all day long wouldn't you? You know they can't outrun you, so they have no choice but to power it up the middle and see if they can get a push. Any DC with half a brain would know to defend us this way, and that's part of the problem.

If you think that's denigrating Gore, or if you somehow think I don't like Frank, you're nuts. He's the only playmaker we've had the last few years and I have nothing but respect and admiration for him. But if you're honest with yourself, you'd know what I'm talking about when I say he doesn't have the speed to threaten teams at the edge, so they don't worry about that when playing us...we have ZERO speed in the backfield, so they defense us accordingly.

Lastly, I don't see anybody, not Spiller or anybody else, starting over Gore anytime soon. I'm not stupid so don't mistake me for someone who is. I also know that it really doesn't matter who "starts" the game or even who finishes, it's about production every time you step on the field. So if Spiller only got 7-10 carries, 2-5 catches a game, 2-4 kickoffs and 3-5 punt returns a game, that's still 14-24 touches for a guy with world class speed and top-tier playmaking ability.

That may not be enough for you, but it works for me.

Since you don't want to read or understand what I'm writing, I'll state it again as clearly as I possibly can. I WOULDN'T MIND AT ALL IF WE DRAFTED A RT AND IUPATI IN THE FIRST ROUND. I SEE THE LOGIC IN IT, I REALLY DO, REGARDLESS OF THE WORDS YOU'RE TRYING TO PUT IN MY MOUTH. I just think there's another solution that addresses both issues (lack of speed at RB and adding personnel to the o-line).

Finally, I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right....I'm just saying, I believe there's another way and I've tried to explain what that way is and why I think it makes sense.

There, is that clear enough for you?

I think alot of our problem regarding defenses stacking the box is the fact it seemed we call the same exact run play over and over and over again. I know your argument is that Coffee and Gore don't have the speed to threaten the outside. Which I'm not even going to try to argue. They was never given a chance to threaten outside to spread the box. I'm not going to sit here and say we will or won't if we draft Spiller. The bottom line is we need to expand our play calling in the run game regardless of if we have a fast guy or not.

IMO that was the bigger problem than lack of speed.

I agree 100% about the play calling, though one could argue the reason there are few runs called to the outside is our lack of speed. I mean, Raye's been around awhile, and as mediocre an OC as he is, even he understands you need to mix it up a bit and not simply ram the ball up the middle. However, if your RBs have no speed, it's even more foolish to try and get them to the outside, knowing they'll never make it to the edge.

But I do get your point and agree with it totally...just not sure about the cause/effect.