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What should we do in the first round?

What should we do in the first round?

  • Stuuk
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 180
I would be inclined to take the best defensive prospect available at 13, providing that that player provides an instant upgrade/can't miss prospect i.e. Berry. Haden, McClain.

However, in all likelihood those mentioned players will be off the board by 13, if the draft goes as most people are suggesting at the moment, plenty of time however for players to rise/fall. Then I think we should take the best OT at 13 and best OG at 17 (Iupati).
  • krizay
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 14,931
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Superbowl09:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by TXNinerFan52:
Where is Spiller going to play? You don't waste a 1st round pick on a kick returner. We just drafted Coffee last year in the 3rd; let's see if he can play. We were so loaded at receiver last year Brandon Jones didn't get a chance to show us what he can do.

If you go back and watch the O-Line play from games this past year you will find out our RT, LG, and RG is where we had the most trouble. Chilo is young and athletic; he can get to the second level. Chilo is only in his 2nd year let’s give him one more year. Baas on the other hand is big and slow. He is in his 5th year; his first 3 years were spent on the bench. Baas has trouble getting to the second level and sometimes get faked out by the defensive lineman. I know drafting linemen is not the sexy thing to do, but we must do in order to get to where we're trying to go.

Everyone knows Sing wants to run the ball. He even told you during the season that the line play was unacceptable. I believe Sing is going to try to fix this line this off season. Sing knows we need to be able to run and pass the ball to get to where we need to go.

Spiller is much more than a "kick returner." CJ Spiller is the top-rated RB in this draft by most people's assessment. He would split time with Gore, very similar to what Carolina did when they drafted Jonathan Stewart 13th overall in 2008 when they already had a stud RB in DeAngelo Williams. The Panthers did this because they want to run the ball, and they know they can't just do it with 1 quality back.

Drafting Spiller allows us to rotate in a fresh, high-quality RB at all times, not to mention, adding a dimension to our running game that we haven't had in a long time...warp speed. Spiller also has the ability to line up in the slot and become a threat to catch passes (unlike Coffee), so it's another weapon on the field that teams have to account for.

Coffee is insurance, in case one of the two go down.


Just curious, Ghost, what did you vote for? I'm guessing 1 o-lineman + BPA?

Absolutely.

As good as Iupati is, I personally don't think a quality guard makes as much of an impact on a team as a quality playmaker. So I'd be ok with picking up an OG in the 2nd round and probably not have a real drastic drop-off in talent/team impact between the two, and grab a playmaker like Spiller with that pick.

Or, as I mentioned in another post, trade down from 16/17 with someone who does want Iupati, grab a few more draft choices and pick BPA later in the 1st. If you trade back far enough in the 1st, you can even select Maurkice Pouncey who can be a nice OC/OG combo player for you.

To pick a 2nd Round guard, you have to believe that will be immediately better than Rachal and Baas who were both second round draft picks (and higher than our #49 pick this year). Iupati is considered a future Pro Bowler who the Niners can plug in from April 23. With a consistent OL, the Niners will have multiple playmakers in Crabtree, Morgan, Gore, VD and Walker.

But if a future pro-bowl guard (as you project him to be) was that valuable to teams, why is Iupati considered more of a mid-to-late 1st rounder and not a top-ten pick? Answer that question, and you'll understand my point about position value.

Think about it...if people can see him being that good, why is he not rated higher in terms of overall prospects. Does it have anything to do with the position he plays and how most teams see that position in terms of overall value???


Because it's the position he plays if a kicker could kick 5o yd field goals everytime accuraly and can also kick up to 60 yds hwould be one of greatest all time but u still won't use a top 10 pick

Precisely my point.

But, for the Niners, Spiller would be a return specialist. He'll see few plays as a RB. So you should compare a guard's value vs. a return specialist's value. Guard wins.

Spiller is the top-rated RB in this draft. What in the world has you thinking he's just a return specialist???? Did you not even read the previous posts about teams that are serious about running the football (like our team says they are) having 2 legitimate RBs (see Carolina selecting Stewart 13th overall when they already had Williams)??? Come on bro, keep up.

But Carolina was a two back running team before they drafted Stewart. They was with Foster and Stephen Davis. Foster and DeAngelo Williams. Now Williams and Stewart. They drafted to what they do. Same with Dallas with J.Jones and Barber. Then replacing J.Jones with F. Jones. They drafted to what they do.

That is not what we do. I understand your argument is going to be Sing WANTS to be a running team. That doesn't however mean it includes a 2 back system. If it did our backups this year would have had more carries in trying to instill his philosophy.

Jimmy Raye's RB carry distribution

83 Rams
Leading back 296
leading backup 68

84 rams
289
81

85 bucs
365
16

86 bucs
190
73

90 pats
212
63

91 rams
214
68

2001 redskins
356
63

2004 raiders
112
85

2005 raiders
272
60

2009 49ers
229
83


Right, wrong or indifferent you guys are trying to implement your own system to make Spiller work.
I'm picking the guy most likely to be a Pro-Bowler from the mind of scouts at the Senior Bowl, the player that stands out like a sore thumb... Mike Iupati, with the 13th.

If the Niners think Iupati should stay at guard, then the best available OT with the 16th/17th. If they think Iupati can transition to RT, then CJ Spiller (who probably will not be on the board) and Graham.

Could you imagine how much better this team would be with Iupati and Spiller/Graham?

This is one of these drafts where it is better to reach a little and get the star players you want than sit back, or trade back, and hope they are still around.
[ Edited by MadDog49er on Jan 28, 2010 at 8:00 AM ]
For those I've frustrated regarding Spiller, see Krizay's post above. My post didn't say that Spiller would be only a returner, but compared his relative value to that of a guard. No matter how you slice it, Spiller would be a backup RB for the Niners.
signed, Thick Skull
[ Edited by Paul_Hofer on Jan 28, 2010 at 8:01 AM ]
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
I'm picking the guy most likely to be a Pro-Bowler from the mind of scouts at the Senior Bowl, the player that stands out like a sore thumb... Mike Iupati, with the 13th.

If the Niners think Iupati should stay at guard, then the best available OT with the 16th/17th. If they think Iupati can transition to RT, then CJ Spiller (who probably will not be on the board) and Graham.

Could you imagine how much better this team would be with Iupati and Spiller/Graham?

This is one of these drafts where it is better to reach a little and get the star players you want than sit back, or trade back, and hope they are still around.


I l ike your thinking but i'd draft a OT first then grab Mike Iupati with the 16th pick. sounds crazy huh???? seriously it's not. O-line was our weakest link & since this draft has the best O-line talent in years i say lets grab them. it would make sooooo much sense to. two starters right off the bat! awesome. it would be the smartest thing to do. we protect our QB & our RB!!!
Originally posted by FredFlintstone:
spiller iupati

+1
I dont think Scott will pick a OG on the first round, my ideal pick would be #13 OT and number 17th, i could lived with Spiller, Haden, Lupati,but my guess is if Mays is still around Scott will take him just got a feeling
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Superbowl09:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by TXNinerFan52:
Where is Spiller going to play? You don't waste a 1st round pick on a kick returner. We just drafted Coffee last year in the 3rd; let's see if he can play. We were so loaded at receiver last year Brandon Jones didn't get a chance to show us what he can do.

If you go back and watch the O-Line play from games this past year you will find out our RT, LG, and RG is where we had the most trouble. Chilo is young and athletic; he can get to the second level. Chilo is only in his 2nd year let’s give him one more year. Baas on the other hand is big and slow. He is in his 5th year; his first 3 years were spent on the bench. Baas has trouble getting to the second level and sometimes get faked out by the defensive lineman. I know drafting linemen is not the sexy thing to do, but we must do in order to get to where we're trying to go.

Everyone knows Sing wants to run the ball. He even told you during the season that the line play was unacceptable. I believe Sing is going to try to fix this line this off season. Sing knows we need to be able to run and pass the ball to get to where we need to go.

Spiller is much more than a "kick returner." CJ Spiller is the top-rated RB in this draft by most people's assessment. He would split time with Gore, very similar to what Carolina did when they drafted Jonathan Stewart 13th overall in 2008 when they already had a stud RB in DeAngelo Williams. The Panthers did this because they want to run the ball, and they know they can't just do it with 1 quality back.

Drafting Spiller allows us to rotate in a fresh, high-quality RB at all times, not to mention, adding a dimension to our running game that we haven't had in a long time...warp speed. Spiller also has the ability to line up in the slot and become a threat to catch passes (unlike Coffee), so it's another weapon on the field that teams have to account for.

Coffee is insurance, in case one of the two go down.


Just curious, Ghost, what did you vote for? I'm guessing 1 o-lineman + BPA?

Absolutely.

As good as Iupati is, I personally don't think a quality guard makes as much of an impact on a team as a quality playmaker. So I'd be ok with picking up an OG in the 2nd round and probably not have a real drastic drop-off in talent/team impact between the two, and grab a playmaker like Spiller with that pick.

Or, as I mentioned in another post, trade down from 16/17 with someone who does want Iupati, grab a few more draft choices and pick BPA later in the 1st. If you trade back far enough in the 1st, you can even select Maurkice Pouncey who can be a nice OC/OG combo player for you.

To pick a 2nd Round guard, you have to believe that will be immediately better than Rachal and Baas who were both second round draft picks (and higher than our #49 pick this year). Iupati is considered a future Pro Bowler who the Niners can plug in from April 23. With a consistent OL, the Niners will have multiple playmakers in Crabtree, Morgan, Gore, VD and Walker.

But if a future pro-bowl guard (as you project him to be) was that valuable to teams, why is Iupati considered more of a mid-to-late 1st rounder and not a top-ten pick? Answer that question, and you'll understand my point about position value.

Think about it...if people can see him being that good, why is he not rated higher in terms of overall prospects. Does it have anything to do with the position he plays and how most teams see that position in terms of overall value???


Because it's the position he plays if a kicker could kick 5o yd field goals everytime accuraly and can also kick up to 60 yds hwould be one of greatest all time but u still won't use a top 10 pick

Precisely my point.

But, for the Niners, Spiller would be a return specialist. He'll see few plays as a RB. So you should compare a guard's value vs. a return specialist's value. Guard wins.

Spiller is the top-rated RB in this draft. What in the world has you thinking he's just a return specialist???? Did you not even read the previous posts about teams that are serious about running the football (like our team says they are) having 2 legitimate RBs (see Carolina selecting Stewart 13th overall when they already had Williams)??? Come on bro, keep up.

But Carolina was a two back running team before they drafted Stewart. They was with Foster and Stephen Davis. Foster and DeAngelo Williams. Now Williams and Stewart. They drafted to what they do. Same with Dallas with J.Jones and Barber. Then replacing J.Jones with F. Jones. They drafted to what they do.

That is not what we do. I understand your argument is going to be Sing WANTS to be a running team. That doesn't however mean it includes a 2 back system. If it did our backups this year would have had more carries in trying to instill his philosophy.

Jimmy Raye's RB carry distribution

83 Rams
Leading back 296
leading backup 68

84 rams
289
81

85 bucs
365
16

86 bucs
190
73

90 pats
212
63

91 rams
214
68

2001 redskins
356
63

2004 raiders
112
85

2005 raiders
272
60

2009 49ers
229
83


Right, wrong or indifferent you guys are trying to implement your own system to make Spiller work.

I'm not trying to implement any system, I'm just using logic. Firstly, Jimmy Raye is not going to be the OC here for very long...I give it 1 more year tops, then it's either going to be our QB coach Mike Johnson or someone else. Raye was always a stop-gap, maybe even a bridge (seamless transistion) for Johnson to eventually take over. So if we're drafting this year with Jimmy Raye's offensive mentality/approach in mind exclusively, we're f**ked.

This team will draft the best talent on offense with an eye towards the future, and not simply with Raye's offensive approach in mind, you can book that.

Secondly, how many times has Jimmy Raye's offense finished in the top 10? What does that tell you about his approach? Again, I believe one of the key reasons Sing brought Raye in was, he knew he would be around for at least two years to help bring some stability to the OC position (Raye isn't/wasn't exactly a "hot commodity")...not to mention, nobody else seemed to want this role.

Lastly, in today's NFL, you need 2 quality RBs if you're going to succeed (there are few exceptions to this). Even the Colts with Peyton Manning as their QB have spent two 1st rounders on RBs over the last few years...that has to tell you something about how important it is to have more than just 1 quality back.

Bottom line, Sing wants to run the ball...A LOT! Not necessarily just pound it up the middle 45 times a game, but keep the ball on the ground more so than put it in the air. However, our only playmaker on the ground has been Gore, and when he goes out (injury or fatigue), we get almost NOTHING from the ground game.

And even when Frank is in, he doesn't have the ability to get to outside, turn the corner and beat defenders to the edge. Nobody on our team has the speed to do that, which is the reason teams can sit in a box, crowd the line of scrimmage and dare us to run up the middle...they're not afraid of getting beat around the corner. A guy like Spiller (who can run inside and of course gash you on the outside) forces teams to worry about the edge and not cheat so much up the middle.

IMO, that's why drafting the top rated back (Spiller) makes sense, logically.

All of that said, I would not be upset if we drafted two o-lineman in the 1st. I see the logic in that as well. I just think (given the choice) there's more upside to having a playmaker like Spiller on our team than a someone like Iupati, as good as he likely will be.

IMO, here's the way to go:

1a.) Bryan Bulaga OR Trent Williams (whoever is available)
1b.) C.J. Spiller
2.) Rodger Saffold (OG) OR Maurkice Pouncey (OC/OG) OR John Asamoah

You fix the RT situation and grab an offensive playmaker in the 1st, then grab an interior o-lineman. In the 3rd, you can go safety, CB, OLB/DE, whatever, but you fix your main issues with the first 3 picks.
[ Edited by GhostofFredDean74 on Jan 28, 2010 at 11:05 AM ]
  • krizay
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 14,931
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Superbowl09:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by TXNinerFan52:
Where is Spiller going to play? You don't waste a 1st round pick on a kick returner. We just drafted Coffee last year in the 3rd; let's see if he can play. We were so loaded at receiver last year Brandon Jones didn't get a chance to show us what he can do.

If you go back and watch the O-Line play from games this past year you will find out our RT, LG, and RG is where we had the most trouble. Chilo is young and athletic; he can get to the second level. Chilo is only in his 2nd year let’s give him one more year. Baas on the other hand is big and slow. He is in his 5th year; his first 3 years were spent on the bench. Baas has trouble getting to the second level and sometimes get faked out by the defensive lineman. I know drafting linemen is not the sexy thing to do, but we must do in order to get to where we're trying to go.

Everyone knows Sing wants to run the ball. He even told you during the season that the line play was unacceptable. I believe Sing is going to try to fix this line this off season. Sing knows we need to be able to run and pass the ball to get to where we need to go.

Spiller is much more than a "kick returner." CJ Spiller is the top-rated RB in this draft by most people's assessment. He would split time with Gore, very similar to what Carolina did when they drafted Jonathan Stewart 13th overall in 2008 when they already had a stud RB in DeAngelo Williams. The Panthers did this because they want to run the ball, and they know they can't just do it with 1 quality back.

Drafting Spiller allows us to rotate in a fresh, high-quality RB at all times, not to mention, adding a dimension to our running game that we haven't had in a long time...warp speed. Spiller also has the ability to line up in the slot and become a threat to catch passes (unlike Coffee), so it's another weapon on the field that teams have to account for.

Coffee is insurance, in case one of the two go down.


Just curious, Ghost, what did you vote for? I'm guessing 1 o-lineman + BPA?

Absolutely.

As good as Iupati is, I personally don't think a quality guard makes as much of an impact on a team as a quality playmaker. So I'd be ok with picking up an OG in the 2nd round and probably not have a real drastic drop-off in talent/team impact between the two, and grab a playmaker like Spiller with that pick.

Or, as I mentioned in another post, trade down from 16/17 with someone who does want Iupati, grab a few more draft choices and pick BPA later in the 1st. If you trade back far enough in the 1st, you can even select Maurkice Pouncey who can be a nice OC/OG combo player for you.

To pick a 2nd Round guard, you have to believe that will be immediately better than Rachal and Baas who were both second round draft picks (and higher than our #49 pick this year). Iupati is considered a future Pro Bowler who the Niners can plug in from April 23. With a consistent OL, the Niners will have multiple playmakers in Crabtree, Morgan, Gore, VD and Walker.

But if a future pro-bowl guard (as you project him to be) was that valuable to teams, why is Iupati considered more of a mid-to-late 1st rounder and not a top-ten pick? Answer that question, and you'll understand my point about position value.

Think about it...if people can see him being that good, why is he not rated higher in terms of overall prospects. Does it have anything to do with the position he plays and how most teams see that position in terms of overall value???


Because it's the position he plays if a kicker could kick 5o yd field goals everytime accuraly and can also kick up to 60 yds hwould be one of greatest all time but u still won't use a top 10 pick

Precisely my point.

But, for the Niners, Spiller would be a return specialist. He'll see few plays as a RB. So you should compare a guard's value vs. a return specialist's value. Guard wins.

Spiller is the top-rated RB in this draft. What in the world has you thinking he's just a return specialist???? Did you not even read the previous posts about teams that are serious about running the football (like our team says they are) having 2 legitimate RBs (see Carolina selecting Stewart 13th overall when they already had Williams)??? Come on bro, keep up.

But Carolina was a two back running team before they drafted Stewart. They was with Foster and Stephen Davis. Foster and DeAngelo Williams. Now Williams and Stewart. They drafted to what they do. Same with Dallas with J.Jones and Barber. Then replacing J.Jones with F. Jones. They drafted to what they do.

That is not what we do. I understand your argument is going to be Sing WANTS to be a running team. That doesn't however mean it includes a 2 back system. If it did our backups this year would have had more carries in trying to instill his philosophy.

Jimmy Raye's RB carry distribution

83 Rams
Leading back 296
leading backup 68

84 rams
289
81

85 bucs
365
16

86 bucs
190
73

90 pats
212
63

91 rams
214
68

2001 redskins
356
63

2004 raiders
112
85

2005 raiders
272
60

2009 49ers
229
83


Right, wrong or indifferent you guys are trying to implement your own system to make Spiller work.

I'm not trying to implement any system, I'm just using logic. Firstly, Jimmy Raye is not going to be the OC here for very long...I give it 1 more year tops, then it's either going to be our QB coach Mike Johnson or someone else. Raye was always a stop-gap, maybe even a bridge (seamless transistion) for Johnson to eventually take over. So if we're drafting this year with Jimmy Raye's offensive mentality/approach in mind exclusively, we're f**ked.

This team will draft the best talent on offense with an eye towards the future, and not simply with Raye's offensive approach in mind, you can book that.

Secondly, how many times has Jimmy Raye's offense finished in the top 10? What does that tell you about his approach? Again, I believe one of the key reasons Sing brought Raye in was, he knew he would be around for at least two years to help bring some stability to the OC position (Raye isn't/wasn't exactly a "hot commodity")...not to mention, nobody else seemed to want this role.

Lastly, in today's NFL, you need 2 quality RBs if you're going to succeed (there are few exceptions to this). Even the Colts with Peyton Manning as their QB have spent two 1st rounders on RBs over the last few years...that has to tell you something about how important it is to have more than just 1 quality back.

Bottom line, Sing wants to run the ball...A LOT! Not necessarily just pound it up the middle 45 times a game, but keep the ball on the ground more so than put it in the air. However, our only playmaker on the ground has been Gore, and when he goes out (injury or fatigue), we get almost NOTHING from the ground game.

And even when Frank is in, he doesn't have the ability to get to outside, turn the corner and beat defenders to the edge. Nobody on our team has the speed to do that, which is the reason teams can sit in a box, crowd the line of scrimmage and dare us to run up the middle...they're not afraid of getting beat around the corner. A guy like Spiller (who can run inside and of course gash you on the outside) forces teams to worry about the edge and not cheat so much up the middle.

IMO, that's why drafting the top rated back (Spiller) makes sense, logically.

All of that said, I would not be upset if we drafted two o-lineman in the 1st. I see the logic in that as well. I just think (given the choice) there's more upside to having a playmaker like Spiller on our team than a someone like Iupati, as good as he likely will be.

How can you sit here and say you're not implementing any system? That's exactly what you are doing. You're basing this off of what you THINK Sing wants to do and who you THINK will be coaching the offensive unit.

Speed can spread out the defense. But only when the speed is on the field. If he's only getting 5ish carries a game what really will he do to change the defense? Even the Colts' 2nd 1st round RB you talk about only averaged 7 carries a game.

I do agree that we need a playmaker on offense. I just don't see how you can say the value of Spiller on our team (behind Gore) is better than that of a guard like Iupati.

I say all of that not even caring if we draft Iupati or not. I just think his value to our team is greater than that of Spiller's and it ain't even close.
[ Edited by krizay on Jan 28, 2010 at 11:23 AM ]
I am with Ghost....I want a tackle and who ever is available of Spiller/Hayden in the first. Guards can be found in round 2 and in free agency with ease. Tackles, shutdown corners, and guys with the potential of Chris Johnson are far more unlikely.
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Superbowl09:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by TXNinerFan52:
Where is Spiller going to play? You don't waste a 1st round pick on a kick returner. We just drafted Coffee last year in the 3rd; let's see if he can play. We were so loaded at receiver last year Brandon Jones didn't get a chance to show us what he can do.

If you go back and watch the O-Line play from games this past year you will find out our RT, LG, and RG is where we had the most trouble. Chilo is young and athletic; he can get to the second level. Chilo is only in his 2nd year let’s give him one more year. Baas on the other hand is big and slow. He is in his 5th year; his first 3 years were spent on the bench. Baas has trouble getting to the second level and sometimes get faked out by the defensive lineman. I know drafting linemen is not the sexy thing to do, but we must do in order to get to where we're trying to go.

Everyone knows Sing wants to run the ball. He even told you during the season that the line play was unacceptable. I believe Sing is going to try to fix this line this off season. Sing knows we need to be able to run and pass the ball to get to where we need to go.

Spiller is much more than a "kick returner." CJ Spiller is the top-rated RB in this draft by most people's assessment. He would split time with Gore, very similar to what Carolina did when they drafted Jonathan Stewart 13th overall in 2008 when they already had a stud RB in DeAngelo Williams. The Panthers did this because they want to run the ball, and they know they can't just do it with 1 quality back.

Drafting Spiller allows us to rotate in a fresh, high-quality RB at all times, not to mention, adding a dimension to our running game that we haven't had in a long time...warp speed. Spiller also has the ability to line up in the slot and become a threat to catch passes (unlike Coffee), so it's another weapon on the field that teams have to account for.

Coffee is insurance, in case one of the two go down.


Just curious, Ghost, what did you vote for? I'm guessing 1 o-lineman + BPA?

Absolutely.

As good as Iupati is, I personally don't think a quality guard makes as much of an impact on a team as a quality playmaker. So I'd be ok with picking up an OG in the 2nd round and probably not have a real drastic drop-off in talent/team impact between the two, and grab a playmaker like Spiller with that pick.

Or, as I mentioned in another post, trade down from 16/17 with someone who does want Iupati, grab a few more draft choices and pick BPA later in the 1st. If you trade back far enough in the 1st, you can even select Maurkice Pouncey who can be a nice OC/OG combo player for you.

To pick a 2nd Round guard, you have to believe that will be immediately better than Rachal and Baas who were both second round draft picks (and higher than our #49 pick this year). Iupati is considered a future Pro Bowler who the Niners can plug in from April 23. With a consistent OL, the Niners will have multiple playmakers in Crabtree, Morgan, Gore, VD and Walker.

But if a future pro-bowl guard (as you project him to be) was that valuable to teams, why is Iupati considered more of a mid-to-late 1st rounder and not a top-ten pick? Answer that question, and you'll understand my point about position value.

Think about it...if people can see him being that good, why is he not rated higher in terms of overall prospects. Does it have anything to do with the position he plays and how most teams see that position in terms of overall value???


Because it's the position he plays if a kicker could kick 5o yd field goals everytime accuraly and can also kick up to 60 yds hwould be one of greatest all time but u still won't use a top 10 pick

Precisely my point.

But, for the Niners, Spiller would be a return specialist. He'll see few plays as a RB. So you should compare a guard's value vs. a return specialist's value. Guard wins.

Spiller is the top-rated RB in this draft. What in the world has you thinking he's just a return specialist???? Did you not even read the previous posts about teams that are serious about running the football (like our team says they are) having 2 legitimate RBs (see Carolina selecting Stewart 13th overall when they already had Williams)??? Come on bro, keep up.

But Carolina was a two back running team before they drafted Stewart. They was with Foster and Stephen Davis. Foster and DeAngelo Williams. Now Williams and Stewart. They drafted to what they do. Same with Dallas with J.Jones and Barber. Then replacing J.Jones with F. Jones. They drafted to what they do.

That is not what we do. I understand your argument is going to be Sing WANTS to be a running team. That doesn't however mean it includes a 2 back system. If it did our backups this year would have had more carries in trying to instill his philosophy.

Jimmy Raye's RB carry distribution

83 Rams
Leading back 296
leading backup 68

84 rams
289
81

85 bucs
365
16

86 bucs
190
73

90 pats
212
63

91 rams
214
68

2001 redskins
356
63

2004 raiders
112
85

2005 raiders
272
60

2009 49ers
229
83


Right, wrong or indifferent you guys are trying to implement your own system to make Spiller work.

I'm not trying to implement any system, I'm just using logic. Firstly, Jimmy Raye is not going to be the OC here for very long...I give it 1 more year tops, then it's either going to be our QB coach Mike Johnson or someone else. Raye was always a stop-gap, maybe even a bridge (seamless transistion) for Johnson to eventually take over. So if we're drafting this year with Jimmy Raye's offensive mentality/approach in mind exclusively, we're f**ked.

This team will draft the best talent on offense with an eye towards the future, and not simply with Raye's offensive approach in mind, you can book that.

Secondly, how many times has Jimmy Raye's offense finished in the top 10? What does that tell you about his approach? Again, I believe one of the key reasons Sing brought Raye in was, he knew he would be around for at least two years to help bring some stability to the OC position (Raye isn't/wasn't exactly a "hot commodity")...not to mention, nobody else seemed to want this role.

Lastly, in today's NFL, you need 2 quality RBs if you're going to succeed (there are few exceptions to this). Even the Colts with Peyton Manning as their QB have spent two 1st rounders on RBs over the last few years...that has to tell you something about how important it is to have more than just 1 quality back.

Bottom line, Sing wants to run the ball...A LOT! Not necessarily just pound it up the middle 45 times a game, but keep the ball on the ground more so than put it in the air. However, our only playmaker on the ground has been Gore, and when he goes out (injury or fatigue), we get almost NOTHING from the ground game.

And even when Frank is in, he doesn't have the ability to get to outside, turn the corner and beat defenders to the edge. Nobody on our team has the speed to do that, which is the reason teams can sit in a box, crowd the line of scrimmage and dare us to run up the middle...they're not afraid of getting beat around the corner. A guy like Spiller (who can run inside and of course gash you on the outside) forces teams to worry about the edge and not cheat so much up the middle.

IMO, that's why drafting the top rated back (Spiller) makes sense, logically.

All of that said, I would not be upset if we drafted two o-lineman in the 1st. I see the logic in that as well. I just think (given the choice) there's more upside to having a playmaker like Spiller on our team than a someone like Iupati, as good as he likely will be.

How can you sit here and say you're not implementing any system? That's exactly what you are doing. You're basing this off of what you THINK Sing wants to do and who you THINK will be coaching the offensive unit.

Speed can spread out the defense. But only when the speed is on the field. If he's only getting 5ish carries a game what really will he do to change the defense? Even the Colts' 2nd 1st round RB you talk about only averaged 7 carries a game.

I do agree that we need a playmaker on offense. I just don't see how you can say the value of Spiller on our team (behind Gore) is better than that of a guard like Iupati.

I say all of that not even caring if we draft Iupati or not. I just think his value to our team is greater than that of Spiller's and it ain't even close.

Come on krizay, that's all ANYONE on this site is doing. We're all guessing here...you, me, MadDog, OTC, Kidash, you name it. None of us are in the war rooms or meetings, so why is what I'm doing any different than what you or anybody else is doing here?

We're all using our intelligence to figure things out, to look beyond the obvious and get a sense for what this team needs and what they will do. You know this.

As for value, it's in the eye of the beholder, and there is no right or wrong here. You have your opinion and I have mine, NFL personnel people have theirs and so do fans. In the war rooms, these are the types of discussions that go on and in the end, the people in charge make the decisions based on what they FEEL is best for the team...sometimes they're right and sometimes they're wrong (just like us here in the draft forums, only nobody gets fired for drafting Ryan Leaf here).

To argue about draft prospects in absolute terms is foolishness; I'm just giving my opinion on why I think Spiller adds more value than say Iupati. Not that it's true or factual or anything like that...it's simply my take, my perspective and my opinion. That's all, bro.
[ Edited by GhostofFredDean74 on Jan 28, 2010 at 11:46 AM ]
  • krizay
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 14,931
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Superbowl09:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by TXNinerFan52:
Where is Spiller going to play? You don't waste a 1st round pick on a kick returner. We just drafted Coffee last year in the 3rd; let's see if he can play. We were so loaded at receiver last year Brandon Jones didn't get a chance to show us what he can do.

If you go back and watch the O-Line play from games this past year you will find out our RT, LG, and RG is where we had the most trouble. Chilo is young and athletic; he can get to the second level. Chilo is only in his 2nd year let’s give him one more year. Baas on the other hand is big and slow. He is in his 5th year; his first 3 years were spent on the bench. Baas has trouble getting to the second level and sometimes get faked out by the defensive lineman. I know drafting linemen is not the sexy thing to do, but we must do in order to get to where we're trying to go.

Everyone knows Sing wants to run the ball. He even told you during the season that the line play was unacceptable. I believe Sing is going to try to fix this line this off season. Sing knows we need to be able to run and pass the ball to get to where we need to go.

Spiller is much more than a "kick returner." CJ Spiller is the top-rated RB in this draft by most people's assessment. He would split time with Gore, very similar to what Carolina did when they drafted Jonathan Stewart 13th overall in 2008 when they already had a stud RB in DeAngelo Williams. The Panthers did this because they want to run the ball, and they know they can't just do it with 1 quality back.

Drafting Spiller allows us to rotate in a fresh, high-quality RB at all times, not to mention, adding a dimension to our running game that we haven't had in a long time...warp speed. Spiller also has the ability to line up in the slot and become a threat to catch passes (unlike Coffee), so it's another weapon on the field that teams have to account for.

Coffee is insurance, in case one of the two go down.


Just curious, Ghost, what did you vote for? I'm guessing 1 o-lineman + BPA?

Absolutely.

As good as Iupati is, I personally don't think a quality guard makes as much of an impact on a team as a quality playmaker. So I'd be ok with picking up an OG in the 2nd round and probably not have a real drastic drop-off in talent/team impact between the two, and grab a playmaker like Spiller with that pick.

Or, as I mentioned in another post, trade down from 16/17 with someone who does want Iupati, grab a few more draft choices and pick BPA later in the 1st. If you trade back far enough in the 1st, you can even select Maurkice Pouncey who can be a nice OC/OG combo player for you.

To pick a 2nd Round guard, you have to believe that will be immediately better than Rachal and Baas who were both second round draft picks (and higher than our #49 pick this year). Iupati is considered a future Pro Bowler who the Niners can plug in from April 23. With a consistent OL, the Niners will have multiple playmakers in Crabtree, Morgan, Gore, VD and Walker.

But if a future pro-bowl guard (as you project him to be) was that valuable to teams, why is Iupati considered more of a mid-to-late 1st rounder and not a top-ten pick? Answer that question, and you'll understand my point about position value.

Think about it...if people can see him being that good, why is he not rated higher in terms of overall prospects. Does it have anything to do with the position he plays and how most teams see that position in terms of overall value???


Because it's the position he plays if a kicker could kick 5o yd field goals everytime accuraly and can also kick up to 60 yds hwould be one of greatest all time but u still won't use a top 10 pick

Precisely my point.

But, for the Niners, Spiller would be a return specialist. He'll see few plays as a RB. So you should compare a guard's value vs. a return specialist's value. Guard wins.

Spiller is the top-rated RB in this draft. What in the world has you thinking he's just a return specialist???? Did you not even read the previous posts about teams that are serious about running the football (like our team says they are) having 2 legitimate RBs (see Carolina selecting Stewart 13th overall when they already had Williams)??? Come on bro, keep up.

But Carolina was a two back running team before they drafted Stewart. They was with Foster and Stephen Davis. Foster and DeAngelo Williams. Now Williams and Stewart. They drafted to what they do. Same with Dallas with J.Jones and Barber. Then replacing J.Jones with F. Jones. They drafted to what they do.

That is not what we do. I understand your argument is going to be Sing WANTS to be a running team. That doesn't however mean it includes a 2 back system. If it did our backups this year would have had more carries in trying to instill his philosophy.

Jimmy Raye's RB carry distribution

83 Rams
Leading back 296
leading backup 68

84 rams
289
81

85 bucs
365
16

86 bucs
190
73

90 pats
212
63

91 rams
214
68

2001 redskins
356
63

2004 raiders
112
85

2005 raiders
272
60

2009 49ers
229
83


Right, wrong or indifferent you guys are trying to implement your own system to make Spiller work.

I'm not trying to implement any system, I'm just using logic. Firstly, Jimmy Raye is not going to be the OC here for very long...I give it 1 more year tops, then it's either going to be our QB coach Mike Johnson or someone else. Raye was always a stop-gap, maybe even a bridge (seamless transistion) for Johnson to eventually take over. So if we're drafting this year with Jimmy Raye's offensive mentality/approach in mind exclusively, we're f**ked.

This team will draft the best talent on offense with an eye towards the future, and not simply with Raye's offensive approach in mind, you can book that.

Secondly, how many times has Jimmy Raye's offense finished in the top 10? What does that tell you about his approach? Again, I believe one of the key reasons Sing brought Raye in was, he knew he would be around for at least two years to help bring some stability to the OC position (Raye isn't/wasn't exactly a "hot commodity")...not to mention, nobody else seemed to want this role.

Lastly, in today's NFL, you need 2 quality RBs if you're going to succeed (there are few exceptions to this). Even the Colts with Peyton Manning as their QB have spent two 1st rounders on RBs over the last few years...that has to tell you something about how important it is to have more than just 1 quality back.

Bottom line, Sing wants to run the ball...A LOT! Not necessarily just pound it up the middle 45 times a game, but keep the ball on the ground more so than put it in the air. However, our only playmaker on the ground has been Gore, and when he goes out (injury or fatigue), we get almost NOTHING from the ground game.

And even when Frank is in, he doesn't have the ability to get to outside, turn the corner and beat defenders to the edge. Nobody on our team has the speed to do that, which is the reason teams can sit in a box, crowd the line of scrimmage and dare us to run up the middle...they're not afraid of getting beat around the corner. A guy like Spiller (who can run inside and of course gash you on the outside) forces teams to worry about the edge and not cheat so much up the middle.

IMO, that's why drafting the top rated back (Spiller) makes sense, logically.

All of that said, I would not be upset if we drafted two o-lineman in the 1st. I see the logic in that as well. I just think (given the choice) there's more upside to having a playmaker like Spiller on our team than a someone like Iupati, as good as he likely will be.

How can you sit here and say you're not implementing any system? That's exactly what you are doing. You're basing this off of what you THINK Sing wants to do and who you THINK will be coaching the offensive unit.

Speed can spread out the defense. But only when the speed is on the field. If he's only getting 5ish carries a game what really will he do to change the defense? Even the Colts' 2nd 1st round RB you talk about only averaged 7 carries a game.

I do agree that we need a playmaker on offense. I just don't see how you can say the value of Spiller on our team (behind Gore) is better than that of a guard like Iupati.

I say all of that not even caring if we draft Iupati or not. I just think his value to our team is greater than that of Spiller's and it ain't even close.

Come on krizay, that's all ANYONE on this site is doing. We're all guessing here...you, me, MadDog, OTC, Kidash, you name it. None of us are in the war rooms or meetings, so why is what I'm doing any different than what you or anybody else is doing here?

We're all using our intelligence to figure things out, to look beyond the obvious and get a sense for what this team needs and what they will do. You know this.

Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
For those I've frustrated regarding Spiller, see Krizay's post above. My post didn't say that Spiller would be only a returner, but compared his relative value to that of a guard. No matter how you slice it, Spiller would be a backup RB for the Niners.
signed, Thick Skull

It is a good thing to have two capable running backs on a team. Whenever Gore came off the field, defenses didnt have to worry about us running the ball. Most of the playoff teams use two backs frequently, and pretty effectively.

- Indianapolis: Brown and Addai
- New Orleans: Thomas, Bush, and Bell
- Arizona: Hightower and Wells (when they arent fumbling)
- Minnesota: AP and Taylor
- New York: Jones and Green (add Washington when he's healthy)
- Dallas: Barber and Jones
- Baltimore: Rice and McGahee
- New England: Maroney, Morris, and Faulk

Every one of those teams use 2 backs a lot more effectively than the Niners do, and only a handful of them are considered "running teams". So, if the passing teams know that you have to have a capable backup RB, then why dont the Niners when they want to pound the football?
Originally posted by TheRatMan13:
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
For those I've frustrated regarding Spiller, see Krizay's post above. My post didn't say that Spiller would be only a returner, but compared his relative value to that of a guard. No matter how you slice it, Spiller would be a backup RB for the Niners.
signed, Thick Skull

It is a good thing to have two capable running backs on a team. Whenever Gore came off the field, defenses didnt have to worry about us running the ball. Most of the playoff teams use two backs frequently, and pretty effectively.

- Indianapolis: Brown and Addai
- New Orleans: Thomas, Bush, and Bell
- Arizona: Hightower and Wells (when they arent fumbling)
- Minnesota: AP and Taylor
- New York: Jones and Green (add Washington when he's healthy)
- Dallas: Barber and Jones
- Baltimore: Rice and McGahee
- New England: Maroney, Morris, and Faulk

Every one of those teams use 2 backs a lot more effectively than the Niners do, and only a handful of them are considered "running teams". So, if the passing teams know that you have to have a capable backup RB, then why dont the Niners when they want to pound the football?

If the Niners' OL can create running lanes, then fine. But until then, it doesn't matter how many RBs you have.
Originally posted by PhillyNiner:
I am with Ghost....I want a tackle and who ever is available of Spiller/Hayden in the first. Guards can be found in round 2 and in free agency with ease. Tackles, shutdown corners, and guys with the potential of Chris Johnson are far more unlikely.

The Niners already have two 2nd R guards in Baas and Rachal and they're not cutting it. Why should we simply add another 2nd rounder to the mix?