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What should we do in the first round?

What should we do in the first round?

Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Superbowl09:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by TXNinerFan52:
Where is Spiller going to play? You don't waste a 1st round pick on a kick returner. We just drafted Coffee last year in the 3rd; let's see if he can play. We were so loaded at receiver last year Brandon Jones didn't get a chance to show us what he can do.

If you go back and watch the O-Line play from games this past year you will find out our RT, LG, and RG is where we had the most trouble. Chilo is young and athletic; he can get to the second level. Chilo is only in his 2nd year let’s give him one more year. Baas on the other hand is big and slow. He is in his 5th year; his first 3 years were spent on the bench. Baas has trouble getting to the second level and sometimes get faked out by the defensive lineman. I know drafting linemen is not the sexy thing to do, but we must do in order to get to where we're trying to go.

Everyone knows Sing wants to run the ball. He even told you during the season that the line play was unacceptable. I believe Sing is going to try to fix this line this off season. Sing knows we need to be able to run and pass the ball to get to where we need to go.

Spiller is much more than a "kick returner." CJ Spiller is the top-rated RB in this draft by most people's assessment. He would split time with Gore, very similar to what Carolina did when they drafted Jonathan Stewart 13th overall in 2008 when they already had a stud RB in DeAngelo Williams. The Panthers did this because they want to run the ball, and they know they can't just do it with 1 quality back.

Drafting Spiller allows us to rotate in a fresh, high-quality RB at all times, not to mention, adding a dimension to our running game that we haven't had in a long time...warp speed. Spiller also has the ability to line up in the slot and become a threat to catch passes (unlike Coffee), so it's another weapon on the field that teams have to account for.

Coffee is insurance, in case one of the two go down.


Just curious, Ghost, what did you vote for? I'm guessing 1 o-lineman + BPA?

Absolutely.

As good as Iupati is, I personally don't think a quality guard makes as much of an impact on a team as a quality playmaker. So I'd be ok with picking up an OG in the 2nd round and probably not have a real drastic drop-off in talent/team impact between the two, and grab a playmaker like Spiller with that pick.

Or, as I mentioned in another post, trade down from 16/17 with someone who does want Iupati, grab a few more draft choices and pick BPA later in the 1st. If you trade back far enough in the 1st, you can even select Maurkice Pouncey who can be a nice OC/OG combo player for you.

To pick a 2nd Round guard, you have to believe that will be immediately better than Rachal and Baas who were both second round draft picks (and higher than our #49 pick this year). Iupati is considered a future Pro Bowler who the Niners can plug in from April 23. With a consistent OL, the Niners will have multiple playmakers in Crabtree, Morgan, Gore, VD and Walker.

But if a future pro-bowl guard (as you project him to be) was that valuable to teams, why is Iupati considered more of a mid-to-late 1st rounder and not a top-ten pick? Answer that question, and you'll understand my point about position value.

Think about it...if people can see him being that good, why is he not rated higher in terms of overall prospects. Does it have anything to do with the position he plays and how most teams see that position in terms of overall value???

Couldn't the same be said of Spiller?

I think you're against getting Spiller because he won't touch the ball enough to make an impact. I disagree. He'll be our PR/KR (and yes those touches do make a difference) and he'll probably get another 5-8 carries and 2-3 catches. You might not think that's a lot but if we can use him in clever ways like the Vikings do with Harvin and the Saints do (or used to do) with Bush, it could be high reward plays.

I think Spiller fills immediate needs for us.

Along the same lines, I wouldn't be upset if we passed on Spiller (for 2 OL) and got another slash type player (Gilyard) in the 2nd. While we wouldn't get the #2 RB I'd like, we get a better slot WR.
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
But if a future pro-bowl guard (as you project him to be) was that valuable to teams, why is Iupati considered more of a mid-to-late 1st rounder and not a top-ten pick? Answer that question, and you'll understand my point about position value.

Think about it...if people can see him being that good, why is he not rated higher in terms of overall prospects. Does it have anything to do with the position he plays and how most teams see that position in terms of overall value???

Because he's competing with other guards. In particular, Baas and Rachal.
As of today, and that might change as of tomorrow, I would like to go Iupati at guard and Graham at OLB. Or if I could trade back and get another draft pick or two, I would do that as well if I could still get Iupati/Graham or Graham/McCluster in the first and still get Calloway, or Asamoah, Scott, Fox, Carter in the later rounds. I also want K. Wilson or one of the Jones at Safety.
[ Edited by Ninefan56 on Jan 27, 2010 at 12:17 PM ]
  • krizay
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 15,008
Originally posted by Leathaface:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Superbowl09:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by TXNinerFan52:
Where is Spiller going to play? You don't waste a 1st round pick on a kick returner. We just drafted Coffee last year in the 3rd; let's see if he can play. We were so loaded at receiver last year Brandon Jones didn't get a chance to show us what he can do.

If you go back and watch the O-Line play from games this past year you will find out our RT, LG, and RG is where we had the most trouble. Chilo is young and athletic; he can get to the second level. Chilo is only in his 2nd year let’s give him one more year. Baas on the other hand is big and slow. He is in his 5th year; his first 3 years were spent on the bench. Baas has trouble getting to the second level and sometimes get faked out by the defensive lineman. I know drafting linemen is not the sexy thing to do, but we must do in order to get to where we're trying to go.

Everyone knows Sing wants to run the ball. He even told you during the season that the line play was unacceptable. I believe Sing is going to try to fix this line this off season. Sing knows we need to be able to run and pass the ball to get to where we need to go.

Spiller is much more than a "kick returner." CJ Spiller is the top-rated RB in this draft by most people's assessment. He would split time with Gore, very similar to what Carolina did when they drafted Jonathan Stewart 13th overall in 2008 when they already had a stud RB in DeAngelo Williams. The Panthers did this because they want to run the ball, and they know they can't just do it with 1 quality back.

Drafting Spiller allows us to rotate in a fresh, high-quality RB at all times, not to mention, adding a dimension to our running game that we haven't had in a long time...warp speed. Spiller also has the ability to line up in the slot and become a threat to catch passes (unlike Coffee), so it's another weapon on the field that teams have to account for.

Coffee is insurance, in case one of the two go down.


Just curious, Ghost, what did you vote for? I'm guessing 1 o-lineman + BPA?

Absolutely.

As good as Iupati is, I personally don't think a quality guard makes as much of an impact on a team as a quality playmaker. So I'd be ok with picking up an OG in the 2nd round and probably not have a real drastic drop-off in talent/team impact between the two, and grab a playmaker like Spiller with that pick.

Or, as I mentioned in another post, trade down from 16/17 with someone who does want Iupati, grab a few more draft choices and pick BPA later in the 1st. If you trade back far enough in the 1st, you can even select Maurkice Pouncey who can be a nice OC/OG combo player for you.

To pick a 2nd Round guard, you have to believe that will be immediately better than Rachal and Baas who were both second round draft picks (and higher than our #49 pick this year). Iupati is considered a future Pro Bowler who the Niners can plug in from April 23. With a consistent OL, the Niners will have multiple playmakers in Crabtree, Morgan, Gore, VD and Walker.

But if a future pro-bowl guard (as you project him to be) was that valuable to teams, why is Iupati considered more of a mid-to-late 1st rounder and not a top-ten pick? Answer that question, and you'll understand my point about position value.

Think about it...if people can see him being that good, why is he not rated higher in terms of overall prospects. Does it have anything to do with the position he plays and how most teams see that position in terms of overall value???

Couldn't the same be said of Spiller?

I think you're against getting Spiller because he won't touch the ball enough to make an impact. I disagree. He'll be our PR/KR (and yes those touches do make a difference) and he'll probably get another 5-8 carries and 2-3 catches. You might not think that's a lot but if we can use him in clever ways like the Vikings do with Harvin and the Saints do (or used to do) with Bush, it could be high reward plays.

I think Spiller fills immediate needs for us.

Along the same lines, I wouldn't be upset if we passed on Spiller (for 2 OL) and got another slash type player (Gilyard) in the 2nd. While we wouldn't get the #2 RB I'd like, we get a better slot WR.

I don't think the PR/KR numbers count for the simple fact we can get a 7th round specialist to get those same touches. Hell an undrafted specialist to get those touches.

As for the 5-8 rushes and 2-3 catches. Even with those numbers he stands to play what 25% or less of the offensive snaps. Is that really worth a 1st round pick? I don't see how only seeing the field 15 out of 60 plays is worth it.
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Superbowl09:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by TXNinerFan52:
Where is Spiller going to play? You don't waste a 1st round pick on a kick returner. We just drafted Coffee last year in the 3rd; let's see if he can play. We were so loaded at receiver last year Brandon Jones didn't get a chance to show us what he can do.

If you go back and watch the O-Line play from games this past year you will find out our RT, LG, and RG is where we had the most trouble. Chilo is young and athletic; he can get to the second level. Chilo is only in his 2nd year let’s give him one more year. Baas on the other hand is big and slow. He is in his 5th year; his first 3 years were spent on the bench. Baas has trouble getting to the second level and sometimes get faked out by the defensive lineman. I know drafting linemen is not the sexy thing to do, but we must do in order to get to where we're trying to go.

Everyone knows Sing wants to run the ball. He even told you during the season that the line play was unacceptable. I believe Sing is going to try to fix this line this off season. Sing knows we need to be able to run and pass the ball to get to where we need to go.

Spiller is much more than a "kick returner." CJ Spiller is the top-rated RB in this draft by most people's assessment. He would split time with Gore, very similar to what Carolina did when they drafted Jonathan Stewart 13th overall in 2008 when they already had a stud RB in DeAngelo Williams. The Panthers did this because they want to run the ball, and they know they can't just do it with 1 quality back.

Drafting Spiller allows us to rotate in a fresh, high-quality RB at all times, not to mention, adding a dimension to our running game that we haven't had in a long time...warp speed. Spiller also has the ability to line up in the slot and become a threat to catch passes (unlike Coffee), so it's another weapon on the field that teams have to account for.

Coffee is insurance, in case one of the two go down.


Just curious, Ghost, what did you vote for? I'm guessing 1 o-lineman + BPA?

Absolutely.

As good as Iupati is, I personally don't think a quality guard makes as much of an impact on a team as a quality playmaker. So I'd be ok with picking up an OG in the 2nd round and probably not have a real drastic drop-off in talent/team impact between the two, and grab a playmaker like Spiller with that pick.

Or, as I mentioned in another post, trade down from 16/17 with someone who does want Iupati, grab a few more draft choices and pick BPA later in the 1st. If you trade back far enough in the 1st, you can even select Maurkice Pouncey who can be a nice OC/OG combo player for you.

To pick a 2nd Round guard, you have to believe that will be immediately better than Rachal and Baas who were both second round draft picks (and higher than our #49 pick this year). Iupati is considered a future Pro Bowler who the Niners can plug in from April 23. With a consistent OL, the Niners will have multiple playmakers in Crabtree, Morgan, Gore, VD and Walker.

But if a future pro-bowl guard (as you project him to be) was that valuable to teams, why is Iupati considered more of a mid-to-late 1st rounder and not a top-ten pick? Answer that question, and you'll understand my point about position value.

Think about it...if people can see him being that good, why is he not rated higher in terms of overall prospects. Does it have anything to do with the position he plays and how most teams see that position in terms of overall value???

Couldn't the same be said of Spiller?

Show me one scout, draft site or any other legitimate scouting service that has Iupati rated higher than Spiller. Not sure you can find one...and it's not that Iupati isn't good, it's just that from a value standpoint, RBs are a little higher up on the food chain. Not that you can't get a good/talented/explosive RB in later rounds, because you can. But when they're really talented (like Spiller and Iupati), the higher value is almost always given to the RB because of the overall impact they can have on a team.

Btw, these are the arguments that go on in draft rooms every year, so it's not like your point isn't valid....it very much is. There's just a pecking order in most draft rooms, and positions like guard, safety, TE and MLB are (with some exceptions, of course) aren't considered to be as impactful in relation to others.
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Superbowl09:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by TXNinerFan52:
Where is Spiller going to play? You don't waste a 1st round pick on a kick returner. We just drafted Coffee last year in the 3rd; let's see if he can play. We were so loaded at receiver last year Brandon Jones didn't get a chance to show us what he can do.

If you go back and watch the O-Line play from games this past year you will find out our RT, LG, and RG is where we had the most trouble. Chilo is young and athletic; he can get to the second level. Chilo is only in his 2nd year let’s give him one more year. Baas on the other hand is big and slow. He is in his 5th year; his first 3 years were spent on the bench. Baas has trouble getting to the second level and sometimes get faked out by the defensive lineman. I know drafting linemen is not the sexy thing to do, but we must do in order to get to where we're trying to go.

Everyone knows Sing wants to run the ball. He even told you during the season that the line play was unacceptable. I believe Sing is going to try to fix this line this off season. Sing knows we need to be able to run and pass the ball to get to where we need to go.

Spiller is much more than a "kick returner." CJ Spiller is the top-rated RB in this draft by most people's assessment. He would split time with Gore, very similar to what Carolina did when they drafted Jonathan Stewart 13th overall in 2008 when they already had a stud RB in DeAngelo Williams. The Panthers did this because they want to run the ball, and they know they can't just do it with 1 quality back.

Drafting Spiller allows us to rotate in a fresh, high-quality RB at all times, not to mention, adding a dimension to our running game that we haven't had in a long time...warp speed. Spiller also has the ability to line up in the slot and become a threat to catch passes (unlike Coffee), so it's another weapon on the field that teams have to account for.

Coffee is insurance, in case one of the two go down.


Just curious, Ghost, what did you vote for? I'm guessing 1 o-lineman + BPA?

Absolutely.

As good as Iupati is, I personally don't think a quality guard makes as much of an impact on a team as a quality playmaker. So I'd be ok with picking up an OG in the 2nd round and probably not have a real drastic drop-off in talent/team impact between the two, and grab a playmaker like Spiller with that pick.

Or, as I mentioned in another post, trade down from 16/17 with someone who does want Iupati, grab a few more draft choices and pick BPA later in the 1st. If you trade back far enough in the 1st, you can even select Maurkice Pouncey who can be a nice OC/OG combo player for you.

To pick a 2nd Round guard, you have to believe that will be immediately better than Rachal and Baas who were both second round draft picks (and higher than our #49 pick this year). Iupati is considered a future Pro Bowler who the Niners can plug in from April 23. With a consistent OL, the Niners will have multiple playmakers in Crabtree, Morgan, Gore, VD and Walker.

But if a future pro-bowl guard (as you project him to be) was that valuable to teams, why is Iupati considered more of a mid-to-late 1st rounder and not a top-ten pick? Answer that question, and you'll understand my point about position value.

Think about it...if people can see him being that good, why is he not rated higher in terms of overall prospects. Does it have anything to do with the position he plays and how most teams see that position in terms of overall value???

Guards in general are not valued the way that O Tackles are. But if they are really good Guards, in the mold of Hutch or Faneca, that changes the equation in my opinion. Really outstanding guards worthy of a higher pick, regardless of what the prevailing conventional wisdom dictates.

Think about it, Pro Bowl quality guards have really long careers. Think about how long guys like: Larry Allen, Kevin Gogan, Ray Brown, Guy McIntyre, Faneca, Gene Upshaw etc..... played. These guys can last 15 years. When was the last time we had a really good guard, in his prime??

People always say that Guards are not good value.. Well I say BS.. If we can draft a guy that starts immediately and has a 10 year, or longer career. That is not good value, that is GREAT value.
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Superbowl09:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by TXNinerFan52:
Where is Spiller going to play? You don't waste a 1st round pick on a kick returner. We just drafted Coffee last year in the 3rd; let's see if he can play. We were so loaded at receiver last year Brandon Jones didn't get a chance to show us what he can do.

If you go back and watch the O-Line play from games this past year you will find out our RT, LG, and RG is where we had the most trouble. Chilo is young and athletic; he can get to the second level. Chilo is only in his 2nd year let’s give him one more year. Baas on the other hand is big and slow. He is in his 5th year; his first 3 years were spent on the bench. Baas has trouble getting to the second level and sometimes get faked out by the defensive lineman. I know drafting linemen is not the sexy thing to do, but we must do in order to get to where we're trying to go.

Everyone knows Sing wants to run the ball. He even told you during the season that the line play was unacceptable. I believe Sing is going to try to fix this line this off season. Sing knows we need to be able to run and pass the ball to get to where we need to go.

Spiller is much more than a "kick returner." CJ Spiller is the top-rated RB in this draft by most people's assessment. He would split time with Gore, very similar to what Carolina did when they drafted Jonathan Stewart 13th overall in 2008 when they already had a stud RB in DeAngelo Williams. The Panthers did this because they want to run the ball, and they know they can't just do it with 1 quality back.

Drafting Spiller allows us to rotate in a fresh, high-quality RB at all times, not to mention, adding a dimension to our running game that we haven't had in a long time...warp speed. Spiller also has the ability to line up in the slot and become a threat to catch passes (unlike Coffee), so it's another weapon on the field that teams have to account for.

Coffee is insurance, in case one of the two go down.


Just curious, Ghost, what did you vote for? I'm guessing 1 o-lineman + BPA?

Absolutely.

As good as Iupati is, I personally don't think a quality guard makes as much of an impact on a team as a quality playmaker. So I'd be ok with picking up an OG in the 2nd round and probably not have a real drastic drop-off in talent/team impact between the two, and grab a playmaker like Spiller with that pick.

Or, as I mentioned in another post, trade down from 16/17 with someone who does want Iupati, grab a few more draft choices and pick BPA later in the 1st. If you trade back far enough in the 1st, you can even select Maurkice Pouncey who can be a nice OC/OG combo player for you.

To pick a 2nd Round guard, you have to believe that will be immediately better than Rachal and Baas who were both second round draft picks (and higher than our #49 pick this year). Iupati is considered a future Pro Bowler who the Niners can plug in from April 23. With a consistent OL, the Niners will have multiple playmakers in Crabtree, Morgan, Gore, VD and Walker.

But if a future pro-bowl guard (as you project him to be) was that valuable to teams, why is Iupati considered more of a mid-to-late 1st rounder and not a top-ten pick? Answer that question, and you'll understand my point about position value.

Think about it...if people can see him being that good, why is he not rated higher in terms of overall prospects. Does it have anything to do with the position he plays and how most teams see that position in terms of overall value???

Couldn't the same be said of Spiller?

Show me one scout, draft site or any other legitimate scouting service that has Iupati rated higher than Spiller. Not sure you can find one...and it's not that Iupati isn't good, it's just that from a value standpoint, RBs are a little higher up on the food chain. Not that you can't get a good/talented/explosive RB in later rounds, because you can. But when they're really talented (like Spiller and Iupati), the higher value is almost always given to the RB because of the overall impact they can have on a team.

Btw, these are the arguments that go on in draft rooms every year, so it's not like your point isn't valid....it very much is. There's just a pecking order in most draft rooms, and positions like guard, safety, TE and MLB are (with some exceptions, of course) aren't considered to be as impactful in relation to others.

You have to argue that it's relative. Would Spiller's impact be greater even if he's on the field less than Iupati would be?

(Not trying to butt in and insert myself into the argument, just throwing a thought out there.)
  • krizay
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 15,008
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Superbowl09:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by TXNinerFan52:
Where is Spiller going to play? You don't waste a 1st round pick on a kick returner. We just drafted Coffee last year in the 3rd; let's see if he can play. We were so loaded at receiver last year Brandon Jones didn't get a chance to show us what he can do.

If you go back and watch the O-Line play from games this past year you will find out our RT, LG, and RG is where we had the most trouble. Chilo is young and athletic; he can get to the second level. Chilo is only in his 2nd year let’s give him one more year. Baas on the other hand is big and slow. He is in his 5th year; his first 3 years were spent on the bench. Baas has trouble getting to the second level and sometimes get faked out by the defensive lineman. I know drafting linemen is not the sexy thing to do, but we must do in order to get to where we're trying to go.

Everyone knows Sing wants to run the ball. He even told you during the season that the line play was unacceptable. I believe Sing is going to try to fix this line this off season. Sing knows we need to be able to run and pass the ball to get to where we need to go.

Spiller is much more than a "kick returner." CJ Spiller is the top-rated RB in this draft by most people's assessment. He would split time with Gore, very similar to what Carolina did when they drafted Jonathan Stewart 13th overall in 2008 when they already had a stud RB in DeAngelo Williams. The Panthers did this because they want to run the ball, and they know they can't just do it with 1 quality back.

Drafting Spiller allows us to rotate in a fresh, high-quality RB at all times, not to mention, adding a dimension to our running game that we haven't had in a long time...warp speed. Spiller also has the ability to line up in the slot and become a threat to catch passes (unlike Coffee), so it's another weapon on the field that teams have to account for.

Coffee is insurance, in case one of the two go down.


Just curious, Ghost, what did you vote for? I'm guessing 1 o-lineman + BPA?

Absolutely.

As good as Iupati is, I personally don't think a quality guard makes as much of an impact on a team as a quality playmaker. So I'd be ok with picking up an OG in the 2nd round and probably not have a real drastic drop-off in talent/team impact between the two, and grab a playmaker like Spiller with that pick.

Or, as I mentioned in another post, trade down from 16/17 with someone who does want Iupati, grab a few more draft choices and pick BPA later in the 1st. If you trade back far enough in the 1st, you can even select Maurkice Pouncey who can be a nice OC/OG combo player for you.

To pick a 2nd Round guard, you have to believe that will be immediately better than Rachal and Baas who were both second round draft picks (and higher than our #49 pick this year). Iupati is considered a future Pro Bowler who the Niners can plug in from April 23. With a consistent OL, the Niners will have multiple playmakers in Crabtree, Morgan, Gore, VD and Walker.

But if a future pro-bowl guard (as you project him to be) was that valuable to teams, why is Iupati considered more of a mid-to-late 1st rounder and not a top-ten pick? Answer that question, and you'll understand my point about position value.

Think about it...if people can see him being that good, why is he not rated higher in terms of overall prospects. Does it have anything to do with the position he plays and how most teams see that position in terms of overall value???

Couldn't the same be said of Spiller?

Show me one scout, draft site or any other legitimate scouting service that has Iupati rated higher than Spiller. Not sure you can find one...and it's not that Iupati isn't good, it's just that from a value standpoint, RBs are a little higher up on the food chain. Not that you can't get a good/talented/explosive RB in later rounds, because you can. But when they're really talented (like Spiller and Iupati), the higher value is almost always given to the RB because of the overall impact they can have on a team.

Btw, these are the arguments that go on in draft rooms every year, so it's not like your point isn't valid....it very much is. There's just a pecking order in most draft rooms, and positions like guard, safety, TE and MLB are (with some exceptions, of course) aren't considered to be as impactful in relation to others.

I understand what you are saying and I agree about the value of Guard and RB's My point is however, if Spiller's overall impact was as great as some make it seem. Why is it that we have teams needing a RB passing on him and him "falling" to us?
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Superbowl09:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by TXNinerFan52:
Where is Spiller going to play? You don't waste a 1st round pick on a kick returner. We just drafted Coffee last year in the 3rd; let's see if he can play. We were so loaded at receiver last year Brandon Jones didn't get a chance to show us what he can do.

If you go back and watch the O-Line play from games this past year you will find out our RT, LG, and RG is where we had the most trouble. Chilo is young and athletic; he can get to the second level. Chilo is only in his 2nd year let’s give him one more year. Baas on the other hand is big and slow. He is in his 5th year; his first 3 years were spent on the bench. Baas has trouble getting to the second level and sometimes get faked out by the defensive lineman. I know drafting linemen is not the sexy thing to do, but we must do in order to get to where we're trying to go.

Everyone knows Sing wants to run the ball. He even told you during the season that the line play was unacceptable. I believe Sing is going to try to fix this line this off season. Sing knows we need to be able to run and pass the ball to get to where we need to go.

Spiller is much more than a "kick returner." CJ Spiller is the top-rated RB in this draft by most people's assessment. He would split time with Gore, very similar to what Carolina did when they drafted Jonathan Stewart 13th overall in 2008 when they already had a stud RB in DeAngelo Williams. The Panthers did this because they want to run the ball, and they know they can't just do it with 1 quality back.

Drafting Spiller allows us to rotate in a fresh, high-quality RB at all times, not to mention, adding a dimension to our running game that we haven't had in a long time...warp speed. Spiller also has the ability to line up in the slot and become a threat to catch passes (unlike Coffee), so it's another weapon on the field that teams have to account for.

Coffee is insurance, in case one of the two go down.


Just curious, Ghost, what did you vote for? I'm guessing 1 o-lineman + BPA?

Absolutely.

As good as Iupati is, I personally don't think a quality guard makes as much of an impact on a team as a quality playmaker. So I'd be ok with picking up an OG in the 2nd round and probably not have a real drastic drop-off in talent/team impact between the two, and grab a playmaker like Spiller with that pick.

Or, as I mentioned in another post, trade down from 16/17 with someone who does want Iupati, grab a few more draft choices and pick BPA later in the 1st. If you trade back far enough in the 1st, you can even select Maurkice Pouncey who can be a nice OC/OG combo player for you.

To pick a 2nd Round guard, you have to believe that will be immediately better than Rachal and Baas who were both second round draft picks (and higher than our #49 pick this year). Iupati is considered a future Pro Bowler who the Niners can plug in from April 23. With a consistent OL, the Niners will have multiple playmakers in Crabtree, Morgan, Gore, VD and Walker.

But if a future pro-bowl guard (as you project him to be) was that valuable to teams, why is Iupati considered more of a mid-to-late 1st rounder and not a top-ten pick? Answer that question, and you'll understand my point about position value.

Think about it...if people can see him being that good, why is he not rated higher in terms of overall prospects. Does it have anything to do with the position he plays and how most teams see that position in terms of overall value???

Couldn't the same be said of Spiller?

Show me one scout, draft site or any other legitimate scouting service that has Iupati rated higher than Spiller. Not sure you can find one...and it's not that Iupati isn't good, it's just that from a value standpoint, RBs are a little higher up on the food chain. Not that you can't get a good/talented/explosive RB in later rounds, because you can. But when they're really talented (like Spiller and Iupati), the higher value is almost always given to the RB because of the overall impact they can have on a team.

Btw, these are the arguments that go on in draft rooms every year, so it's not like your point isn't valid....it very much is. There's just a pecking order in most draft rooms, and positions like guard, safety, TE and MLB are (with some exceptions, of course) aren't considered to be as impactful in relation to others.

You have to argue that it's relative. Would Spiller's impact be greater even if he's on the field less than Iupati would be?

(Not trying to butt in and insert myself into the argument, just throwing a thought out there.)

And that's why there's no clear answer to these things. One can say, even if Iupati played every snap in a game, would he have added more value to the team as opposed to Spiller, who maybe only touched the ball 5 times but scored 3 TDs off those touches because of his unique play making ability?

So it's an argument that can go back and forth...is it the playmaker or is it the trench-guys that add the most value. Most teams see the playmakers as adding more value as opposed to the trench guys (exception being LTs of course).
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Superbowl09:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by TXNinerFan52:
Where is Spiller going to play? You don't waste a 1st round pick on a kick returner. We just drafted Coffee last year in the 3rd; let's see if he can play. We were so loaded at receiver last year Brandon Jones didn't get a chance to show us what he can do.

If you go back and watch the O-Line play from games this past year you will find out our RT, LG, and RG is where we had the most trouble. Chilo is young and athletic; he can get to the second level. Chilo is only in his 2nd year let’s give him one more year. Baas on the other hand is big and slow. He is in his 5th year; his first 3 years were spent on the bench. Baas has trouble getting to the second level and sometimes get faked out by the defensive lineman. I know drafting linemen is not the sexy thing to do, but we must do in order to get to where we're trying to go.

Everyone knows Sing wants to run the ball. He even told you during the season that the line play was unacceptable. I believe Sing is going to try to fix this line this off season. Sing knows we need to be able to run and pass the ball to get to where we need to go.

Spiller is much more than a "kick returner." CJ Spiller is the top-rated RB in this draft by most people's assessment. He would split time with Gore, very similar to what Carolina did when they drafted Jonathan Stewart 13th overall in 2008 when they already had a stud RB in DeAngelo Williams. The Panthers did this because they want to run the ball, and they know they can't just do it with 1 quality back.

Drafting Spiller allows us to rotate in a fresh, high-quality RB at all times, not to mention, adding a dimension to our running game that we haven't had in a long time...warp speed. Spiller also has the ability to line up in the slot and become a threat to catch passes (unlike Coffee), so it's another weapon on the field that teams have to account for.

Coffee is insurance, in case one of the two go down.


Just curious, Ghost, what did you vote for? I'm guessing 1 o-lineman + BPA?

Absolutely.

As good as Iupati is, I personally don't think a quality guard makes as much of an impact on a team as a quality playmaker. So I'd be ok with picking up an OG in the 2nd round and probably not have a real drastic drop-off in talent/team impact between the two, and grab a playmaker like Spiller with that pick.

Or, as I mentioned in another post, trade down from 16/17 with someone who does want Iupati, grab a few more draft choices and pick BPA later in the 1st. If you trade back far enough in the 1st, you can even select Maurkice Pouncey who can be a nice OC/OG combo player for you.

To pick a 2nd Round guard, you have to believe that will be immediately better than Rachal and Baas who were both second round draft picks (and higher than our #49 pick this year). Iupati is considered a future Pro Bowler who the Niners can plug in from April 23. With a consistent OL, the Niners will have multiple playmakers in Crabtree, Morgan, Gore, VD and Walker.

But if a future pro-bowl guard (as you project him to be) was that valuable to teams, why is Iupati considered more of a mid-to-late 1st rounder and not a top-ten pick? Answer that question, and you'll understand my point about position value.

Think about it...if people can see him being that good, why is he not rated higher in terms of overall prospects. Does it have anything to do with the position he plays and how most teams see that position in terms of overall value???

Couldn't the same be said of Spiller?

Show me one scout, draft site or any other legitimate scouting service that has Iupati rated higher than Spiller. Not sure you can find one...and it's not that Iupati isn't good, it's just that from a value standpoint, RBs are a little higher up on the food chain. Not that you can't get a good/talented/explosive RB in later rounds, because you can. But when they're really talented (like Spiller and Iupati), the higher value is almost always given to the RB because of the overall impact they can have on a team.

Btw, these are the arguments that go on in draft rooms every year, so it's not like your point isn't valid....it very much is. There's just a pecking order in most draft rooms, and positions like guard, safety, TE and MLB are (with some exceptions, of course) aren't considered to be as impactful in relation to others.

I understand what you are saying and I agree about the value of Guard and RB's My point is however, if Spiller's overall impact was as great as some make it seem. Why is it that we have teams needing a RB passing on him and him "falling" to us?

I assumed you knew the answer to that, but I'll answer anyway. Because just about all of the teams ahead of us have greater needs than RB, and at positions of greater value than RB (i.e., QB, OT, DT, pass rush, etc.). Again, RB is not at the top of the list in terms of position value (and I don't think we should use #13 on Spiller ahead of getting an OT), so Spiller is rated right about where he should be in the 12-20 overall range of prospects. IMO, Spiller would be a solid value pick at #16/17 as well as fit a need (blinding speed on offense, 2nd RB/eventual starter, high-end special teams production, receiving abilities, etc.).
[ Edited by GhostofFredDean74 on Jan 27, 2010 at 2:00 PM ]
If you take the best tackle available and go bpa then in the 2nd go with a good db then you should still be able to find a good guard in the third (if we don't go after lupati).
Originally posted by 49ers1fan1982:
If you take the best tackle available and go bpa then in the 2nd go with a good db then you should still be able to find a good guard in the third (if we don't go after lupati).

Going for a "good" guard in the third round leaves out that both Baas and Rachal were 2nd rounders. Maybe we'll get lucky in the third round, but luck hasn't work for the Niners' OL lately. IMO, the Niners should override questions of luck and poor coaching and get the best (not "good") OL they can.
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Superbowl09:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by TXNinerFan52:
Where is Spiller going to play? You don't waste a 1st round pick on a kick returner. We just drafted Coffee last year in the 3rd; let's see if he can play. We were so loaded at receiver last year Brandon Jones didn't get a chance to show us what he can do.

If you go back and watch the O-Line play from games this past year you will find out our RT, LG, and RG is where we had the most trouble. Chilo is young and athletic; he can get to the second level. Chilo is only in his 2nd year let’s give him one more year. Baas on the other hand is big and slow. He is in his 5th year; his first 3 years were spent on the bench. Baas has trouble getting to the second level and sometimes get faked out by the defensive lineman. I know drafting linemen is not the sexy thing to do, but we must do in order to get to where we're trying to go.

Everyone knows Sing wants to run the ball. He even told you during the season that the line play was unacceptable. I believe Sing is going to try to fix this line this off season. Sing knows we need to be able to run and pass the ball to get to where we need to go.

Spiller is much more than a "kick returner." CJ Spiller is the top-rated RB in this draft by most people's assessment. He would split time with Gore, very similar to what Carolina did when they drafted Jonathan Stewart 13th overall in 2008 when they already had a stud RB in DeAngelo Williams. The Panthers did this because they want to run the ball, and they know they can't just do it with 1 quality back.

Drafting Spiller allows us to rotate in a fresh, high-quality RB at all times, not to mention, adding a dimension to our running game that we haven't had in a long time...warp speed. Spiller also has the ability to line up in the slot and become a threat to catch passes (unlike Coffee), so it's another weapon on the field that teams have to account for.

Coffee is insurance, in case one of the two go down.


Just curious, Ghost, what did you vote for? I'm guessing 1 o-lineman + BPA?

Absolutely.

As good as Iupati is, I personally don't think a quality guard makes as much of an impact on a team as a quality playmaker. So I'd be ok with picking up an OG in the 2nd round and probably not have a real drastic drop-off in talent/team impact between the two, and grab a playmaker like Spiller with that pick.

Or, as I mentioned in another post, trade down from 16/17 with someone who does want Iupati, grab a few more draft choices and pick BPA later in the 1st. If you trade back far enough in the 1st, you can even select Maurkice Pouncey who can be a nice OC/OG combo player for you.

To pick a 2nd Round guard, you have to believe that will be immediately better than Rachal and Baas who were both second round draft picks (and higher than our #49 pick this year). Iupati is considered a future Pro Bowler who the Niners can plug in from April 23. With a consistent OL, the Niners will have multiple playmakers in Crabtree, Morgan, Gore, VD and Walker.

But if a future pro-bowl guard (as you project him to be) was that valuable to teams, why is Iupati considered more of a mid-to-late 1st rounder and not a top-ten pick? Answer that question, and you'll understand my point about position value.

Think about it...if people can see him being that good, why is he not rated higher in terms of overall prospects. Does it have anything to do with the position he plays and how most teams see that position in terms of overall value???





Because it's the position he plays if a kicker could kick 5o yd field goals everytime accuraly and can also kick up to 60 yds hwould be one of greatest all time but u still won't use a top 10 pick
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Dang... you even nailed the OG I wanted in Iupati. I'd like to see us go OT & OG in round 1 and shore up the O-line once and for all. A DB in round 2 or a QB with good value and maybe some pass rush help in round 3 would be nice. Ideally I wish we could snag a veteran QB so we don't have to waste a draft pick on one, but the chances of that are slim at best.
As of right now I'm leaning towards Iuputi and Brandon Graham. I've always been high on Graham and while it makes more sense to grab the tackle Iuputi just looks like the best lineman available at 13.