Greatest UFC Fighter of All-Time

What are you even arguing jedediah? I think you're farther than the point of my post' than ever. lol

My main point to my arguments have been:

1. Would prime Royce Gracie win in today's UFC?

2. Would present Royce Gracie win in today's UFC?

It seems like your post took a left turn somewhere and got lost. lol

Originally posted by Kolohe:
What are you even arguing jedediah? I think you're farther than the point of my post' than ever. lol

My main point to my arguments have been:

1. Would prime Royce Gracie win in today's UFC?

2. Would present Royce Gracie win in today's UFC?

It seems like your post took a left turn somewhere and got lost. lol

What turn? I'm saying the exact same thing I've been saying the entire time.

You don't seem to understand that prepping for and winning a tournament is much harder than prepping for and winning a single fight. You prep for a single fight, you get to study hours of film, plan your fight to counter your opponents strengths, etc... You can't do that in a tournament because you don't know who you're fighting...

And doing it with no weight class restrictions, while being the smallest guy in the tournament is even harder. And doing it with no rules against striking certain body parts, or using the gi for leverage, etc is harder than fighting in today's UFC with all the rules and restrictions. And he won the tournament three times.

You can claim it was because nobody knew how to defend his style -- the first time -- but not the second and third time. Ask Ken Shamrock, who trained in BJJ after he got beat the first time, and then got beat again but got called a draw because of -- guess what -- time limit.

Would today's fighters win back then, when they fought multiple times in a day, against opponents they couldn't prepare for? Today's fighters lose 40% of their matches to replacement fighters who haven't even been training for the fight... and that's with more than a month's notice. s**t, who was that dude a few years ago who won the championship as a replacement fighter?

http://www.betmma.tips/ufc_late_replacement_fight_stats.php

Would a 50 year old win in today's UFC? Really?

One of his two losses came when he was 40 years old. The other came when he was 35. Royce in his prime would submit every fighter in today's UFC, no question.

Originally posted by jedediahyork:

Originally posted by Kolohe:
What are you even arguing jedediah? I think you're farther than the point of my post' than ever. lol

My main point to my arguments have been:

1. Would prime Royce Gracie win in today's UFC?

2. Would present Royce Gracie win in today's UFC?

It seems like your post took a left turn somewhere and got lost. lol

What turn? I'm saying the exact same thing I've been saying the entire time.

You don't seem to understand that prepping for and winning a tournament is much harder than prepping for and winning a single fight. You prep for a single fight, you get to study hours of film, plan your fight to counter your opponents strengths, etc... You can't do that in a tournament because you don't know who you're fighting...

And doing it with no weight class restrictions, while being the smallest guy in the tournament is even harder. And doing it with no rules against striking certain body parts, or using the gi for leverage, etc is harder than fighting in today's UFC with all the rules and restrictions. And he won the tournament three times.

You can claim it was because nobody knew how to defend his style -- the first time -- but not the second and third time. Ask Ken Shamrock, who trained in BJJ after he got beat the first time, and then got beat again but got called a draw because of -- guess what -- time limit.

Would today's fighters win back then, when they fought multiple times in a day, against opponents they couldn't prepare for? Today's fighters lose 40% of their matches to replacement fighters who haven't even been training for the fight... and that's with more than a month's notice. s**t, who was that dude a few years ago who won the championship as a replacement fighter?

http://www.betmma.tips/ufc_late_replacement_fight_stats.php

Would a 50 year old win in today's UFC? Really?

One of his two losses came when he was 40 years old. The other came when he was 35. Royce in his prime would submit every fighter in today's UFC, no question.

Like I said you're side tracking from what my argument was geared toward. No one is questioning Royce Gracie as a fighter, nowhere in any of my post did I do that.

It's a simple question or questions, would Royce Gracie win in today's UFC. And you keep going on about how Royce had to do this or that, I don't care about any of that, WOULD HE WIN IN TODAY'S UFC!!!!

FYI you were jumping into the conversation between JBrack and I then totally miss the point to our conversation. lol

Originally posted by jedediahyork:

Originally posted by fortyninerglory:
Gracie was a one trick pony. But I'm sure his Jiu Jitsu would come in handy in today's game. But yeah, he would get thoroughly whooped. Even Severn said he went easy on Gracie during their fight because he was afraid to hurt him (250 lbs vs. 170lbs) and that eventually cost him the match.

Yep. One trick pony.



Dude was smaller than everyone he fought and you're b***hing he kicked their asses from his back?



Here's a 308 lbs weight difference.

You have to joking lmao. Some fat ass is proof that he could beat a world class athlete like Lesnar?

Back then, NO ONE knew how to defend BJJ. Now, it's the first thing most fighter's learn when entering MMA.

Originally posted by Kolohe:

Originally posted by jedediahyork:

Originally posted by Kolohe:

What are you even arguing jedediah? I think you're farther than the point of my post' than ever. lol

My main point to my arguments have been:

1. Would prime Royce Gracie win in today's UFC?

2. Would present Royce Gracie win in today's UFC?

It seems like your post took a left turn somewhere and got lost. lol

What turn? I'm saying the exact same thing I've been saying the entire time.

You don't seem to understand that prepping for and winning a tournament is much harder than prepping for and winning a single fight. You prep for a single fight, you get to study hours of film, plan your fight to counter your opponents strengths, etc... You can't do that in a tournament because you don't know who you're fighting...

And doing it with no weight class restrictions, while being the smallest guy in the tournament is even harder. And doing it with no rules against striking certain body parts, or using the gi for leverage, etc is harder than fighting in today's UFC with all the rules and restrictions. And he won the tournament three times.

You can claim it was because nobody knew how to defend his style -- the first time -- but not the second and third time. Ask Ken Shamrock, who trained in BJJ after he got beat the first time, and then got beat again but got called a draw because of -- guess what -- time limit.

Would today's fighters win back then, when they fought multiple times in a day, against opponents they couldn't prepare for? Today's fighters lose 40% of their matches to replacement fighters who haven't even been training for the fight... and that's with more than a month's notice. s**t, who was that dude a few years ago who won the championship as a replacement fighter?

http://www.betmma.tips/ufc_late_replacement_fight_stats.php

Would a 50 year old win in today's UFC? Really?

One of his two losses came when he was 40 years old. The other came when he was 35. Royce in his prime would submit every fighter in today's UFC, no question.

Like I said you're side tracking from what my argument was geared toward. No one is questioning Royce Gracie as a fighter, nowhere in any of my post did I do that.

It's a simple question or questions, would Royce Gracie win in today's UFC. And you keep going on about how Royce had to do this or that, I don't care about any of that, WOULD HE WIN IN TODAY'S UFC!!!!

FYI you were jumping into the conversation between JBrack and I then totally miss the point to our conversation. lol

And you totally just proved you're arguing without even reading the post, since I answered you.

Originally posted by TheHYDE49er:

You have to joking lmao. Some fat ass is proof that he could beat a world class athlete like Lesnar?

Dan Severn was a 2 time national wrestling champ, 13 time AAU national wrestling champ, 2 time state high school wrestling champ, and is an ASU hall of famer.

Dan Severn is 6'2", weighed in at 265.

Lesner is 6'3", weighed in at 265.

Who won?



A 486 lbs sumo wrestling champion is a joke?

Originally posted by ChazBoner:

Back then, NO ONE knew how to defend BJJ. Now, it's the first thing most fighter's learn when entering MMA.

In the first UFC tourney, yes. And then they all started training in BJJ and Royce won two more, and forfeited his semifinal match in UFC 4

Originally posted by Kolohe:

Originally posted by jedediahyork:

Originally posted by Kolohe:

What are you even arguing jedediah? I think you're farther than the point of my post' than ever. lol

My main point to my arguments have been:

1. Would prime Royce Gracie win in today's UFC?

2. Would present Royce Gracie win in today's UFC?

It seems like your post took a left turn somewhere and got lost. lol

What turn? I'm saying the exact same thing I've been saying the entire time.

You don't seem to understand that prepping for and winning a tournament is much harder than prepping for and winning a single fight. You prep for a single fight, you get to study hours of film, plan your fight to counter your opponents strengths, etc... You can't do that in a tournament because you don't know who you're fighting...

And doing it with no weight class restrictions, while being the smallest guy in the tournament is even harder. And doing it with no rules against striking certain body parts, or using the gi for leverage, etc is harder than fighting in today's UFC with all the rules and restrictions. And he won the tournament three times.

You can claim it was because nobody knew how to defend his style -- the first time -- but not the second and third time. Ask Ken Shamrock, who trained in BJJ after he got beat the first time, and then got beat again but got called a draw because of -- guess what -- time limit.

Would today's fighters win back then, when they fought multiple times in a day, against opponents they couldn't prepare for? Today's fighters lose 40% of their matches to replacement fighters who haven't even been training for the fight... and that's with more than a month's notice. s**t, who was that dude a few years ago who won the championship as a replacement fighter?

http://www.betmma.tips/ufc_late_replacement_fight_stats.php

Would a 50 year old win in today's UFC? Really?

One of his two losses came when he was 40 years old. The other came when he was 35. Royce in his prime would submit every fighter in today's UFC, no question.

Like I said you're side tracking from what my argument was geared toward. No one is questioning Royce Gracie as a fighter, nowhere in any of my post did I do that.

It's a simple question or questions, would Royce Gracie win in today's UFC. And you keep going on about how Royce had to do this or that, I don't care about any of that, WOULD HE WIN IN TODAY'S UFC!!!!

FYI you were jumping into the conversation between JBrack and I then totally miss the point to our conversation. lol

I have read everything that was said and there are valid arguments from both sides. Could Royce in his prime win in today's UFC? That is debatable and purely a matter of opinion.

What isn't opinion is what Gracie did do in his prime. He dominated a sport that was filled with guys two and three times his size consistently. What me and Jed are saying is nobody in today's UFC could pull that off or would even have the balls to try. That is why he is the "greatest fighter in UFC history". Beating up on guys in a single weight class really doesn't impress me compared to what Royce was able to accomplish.

Originally posted by jedediahyork:

Originally posted by Kolohe:

Originally posted by jedediahyork:

Originally posted by Kolohe:
What are you even arguing jedediah? I think you're farther than the point of my post' than ever. lol

My main point to my arguments have been:

1. Would prime Royce Gracie win in today's UFC?

2. Would present Royce Gracie win in today's UFC?

It seems like your post took a left turn somewhere and got lost. lol

What turn? I'm saying the exact same thing I've been saying the entire time.

You don't seem to understand that prepping for and winning a tournament is much harder than prepping for and winning a single fight. You prep for a single fight, you get to study hours of film, plan your fight to counter your opponents strengths, etc... You can't do that in a tournament because you don't know who you're fighting...

And doing it with no weight class restrictions, while being the smallest guy in the tournament is even harder. And doing it with no rules against striking certain body parts, or using the gi for leverage, etc is harder than fighting in today's UFC with all the rules and restrictions. And he won the tournament three times.

You can claim it was because nobody knew how to defend his style -- the first time -- but not the second and third time. Ask Ken Shamrock, who trained in BJJ after he got beat the first time, and then got beat again but got called a draw because of -- guess what -- time limit.

Would today's fighters win back then, when they fought multiple times in a day, against opponents they couldn't prepare for? Today's fighters lose 40% of their matches to replacement fighters who haven't even been training for the fight... and that's with more than a month's notice. s**t, who was that dude a few years ago who won the championship as a replacement fighter?

http://www.betmma.tips/ufc_late_replacement_fight_stats.php

Would a 50 year old win in today's UFC? Really?

One of his two losses came when he was 40 years old. The other came when he was 35. Royce in his prime would submit every fighter in today's UFC, no question.

Like I said you're side tracking from what my argument was geared toward. No one is questioning Royce Gracie as a fighter, nowhere in any of my post did I do that.

It's a simple question or questions, would Royce Gracie win in today's UFC. And you keep going on about how Royce had to do this or that, I don't care about any of that, WOULD HE WIN IN TODAY'S UFC!!!!

FYI you were jumping into the conversation between JBrack and I then totally miss the point to our conversation. lol

And you totally just proved you're arguing without even reading the post, since I answered you.

Still unable to answer the question directly without beating around the bush.

My reason for not replying to all that you've mentioned, again that's not what I'm arguing against. It' like you post other things to avoid my question, hoping I'm gonna somehow take things outta context and argue a different angle.

Here let me repeat this for you one last time before I choose to move on with my life.

Would Royce Gracie win in today's UFC?

or

Would a Royce Gracie in his prime win in today's UFC?

I've answered and refuted that question. What say you?

Originally posted by JBrack:

Originally posted by Kolohe:

Originally posted by jedediahyork:

Originally posted by Kolohe:
What are you even arguing jedediah? I think you're farther than the point of my post' than ever. lol

My main point to my arguments have been:

1. Would prime Royce Gracie win in today's UFC?

2. Would present Royce Gracie win in today's UFC?

It seems like your post took a left turn somewhere and got lost. lol

What turn? I'm saying the exact same thing I've been saying the entire time.

You don't seem to understand that prepping for and winning a tournament is much harder than prepping for and winning a single fight. You prep for a single fight, you get to study hours of film, plan your fight to counter your opponents strengths, etc... You can't do that in a tournament because you don't know who you're fighting...

And doing it with no weight class restrictions, while being the smallest guy in the tournament is even harder. And doing it with no rules against striking certain body parts, or using the gi for leverage, etc is harder than fighting in today's UFC with all the rules and restrictions. And he won the tournament three times.

You can claim it was because nobody knew how to defend his style -- the first time -- but not the second and third time. Ask Ken Shamrock, who trained in BJJ after he got beat the first time, and then got beat again but got called a draw because of -- guess what -- time limit.

Would today's fighters win back then, when they fought multiple times in a day, against opponents they couldn't prepare for? Today's fighters lose 40% of their matches to replacement fighters who haven't even been training for the fight... and that's with more than a month's notice. s**t, who was that dude a few years ago who won the championship as a replacement fighter?

http://www.betmma.tips/ufc_late_replacement_fight_stats.php

Would a 50 year old win in today's UFC? Really?

One of his two losses came when he was 40 years old. The other came when he was 35. Royce in his prime would submit every fighter in today's UFC, no question.

Like I said you're side tracking from what my argument was geared toward. No one is questioning Royce Gracie as a fighter, nowhere in any of my post did I do that.

It's a simple question or questions, would Royce Gracie win in today's UFC. And you keep going on about how Royce had to do this or that, I don't care about any of that, WOULD HE WIN IN TODAY'S UFC!!!!

FYI you were jumping into the conversation between JBrack and I then totally miss the point to our conversation. lol

I have read everything that was said and there are valid arguments from both sides. Could Royce in his prime when in today's UFC? That is debatable and purely a matter of opinion.

What isn't opinion is what Gracie did do in his prime. He dominated a sport that was filled with guys two and three times his size consistently. What me and Jed are saying is nobody in today's UFC could pull that off or would even have the balls to try. That is why he is the "greatest fighter in UFC history". Beating up on guys in a single weight class really doesn't impress me compared to what Royce was able to accomplish.

First off it's a fact, you cannot win in today's UFC with just BJJ, see Damien Maia who has been working on his stand up. Second, BJJ has evolved so much since the first UFC 1, that at the same weight of Royce, today's fighter would easily dominate back then. Why, leg and ankle locks are much more easier to pull off now and Gracie wasn't even doing those back then, Shamrock was the only one to set these up and finish. See Frank Mir vs. Brock Lesnar 1. Back then no one knew how to defend BJJ, Shamrock is the closest to ever do it but did he?

Fighters today are far more advanced in striking and on the ground, put someone like Jacare Souza in the UFC back in the 90's and he would own every single fighter including Royce Gracie in his prime.

Originally posted by Kolohe:

First off it's a fact, you cannot win in today's UFC with just BJJ, see Damien Maia who has been working on his stand up. Second, BJJ has evolved so much since the first UFC 1, that at the same weight of Royce, today's fighter would easily dominate back then. Why, leg and ankle locks are much more easier to pull off now and Gracie wasn't even doing those back then, Shamrock was the only one to set these up and finish. See Frank Mir vs. Brock Lesnar 1. Back then no one knew how to defend BJJ, Shamrock is the closest to ever do it but did he?

Fighters today are far more advanced in striking and on the ground, put someone like Jacare Souza in the UFC back in the 90's and he would own every single fighter including Royce Gracie in his prime.

You keep saying things have evolved. I don't think they have. Boxing is boxing and fighting is fighting. You surely must know that Gracie has studied boxing and other forms of striking. Is Muay Thai teaching new ways to strike? No they are not. Are boxing coaches teaching different techniques that im not aware of? No they havent. Do wrestling coaches now teach different ways to wrestle? Absolutely not. The only thing that has changed is the money. Now people can do this for a living and train everyday. Thats not evolution, it simply just more time to perfect your craft.

Originally posted by jedediahyork:

Originally posted by TheHYDE49er:
You have to joking lmao. Some fat ass is proof that he could beat a world class athlete like Lesnar?

Dan Severn was a 2 time national wrestling champ, 13 time AAU national wrestling champ, 2 time state high school wrestling champ, and is an ASU hall of famer.

Dan Severn is 6'2", weighed in at 265.

Lesner is 6'3", weighed in at 265.

Who won?



A 486 lbs sumo wrestling champion is a joke?

A sumo champion is a joke when compared to actual MMA fighter. There's nobody in the UFC right now or any kind of professional MMA promotion that would lose to a sumo wrestler. That just a terrible attempt at making your point.

Dan was also just one dimensional. If he would come in today's MMA with the exact same skill set he had 20+ years ago, he would get dominated. He would have to greatly improve his standup and BJJ, among other things.

This basically is like arguing that Bill Russel would be a great NBA player today, or Babe Ruth would also be a great baseball player, both games have evolved so much since then. Especially MMA, where literally guys off the street would come fight and then go back to their day job.

Originally posted by JBrack:

Originally posted by Kolohe:
First off it's a fact, you cannot win in today's UFC with just BJJ, see Damien Maia who has been working on his stand up. Second, BJJ has evolved so much since the first UFC 1, that at the same weight of Royce, today's fighter would easily dominate back then. Why, leg and ankle locks are much more easier to pull off now and Gracie wasn't even doing those back then, Shamrock was the only one to set these up and finish. See Frank Mir vs. Brock Lesnar 1. Back then no one knew how to defend BJJ, Shamrock is the closest to ever do it but did he?

Fighters today are far more advanced in striking and on the ground, put someone like Jacare Souza in the UFC back in the 90's and he would own every single fighter including Royce Gracie in his prime.

You keep saying things have evolved. I don't think they have. Boxing is boxing and fighting is fighting. You surely must know that Gracie has studied boxing and other forms of striking. Is Muay Thai teaching new ways to strike? No they are not. Are boxing coaches teaching different techniques that im not aware of? No they havent. Do wrestling coaches now teach different ways to wrestle? Absolutely not. The only thing that has changed is the money. Now people can do this for a living and train everyday. Thats not evolution, it simply just more time to perfect your craft.

All of that is just absolutely false. Everything that you posted is just flat wrong, except the money part I suppose. You used to have guys that boxed like this lmao, but no, the sport hasn't evolved.

Originally posted by TheHYDE49er:

A sumo champion is a joke when compared to actual MMA fighter. There's nobody in the UFC right now or any kind of professional MMA promotion that would lose to a sumo wrestler. That just a terrible attempt at making your point.

Dan was also just one dimensional. If he would come in today's MMA with the exact same skill set he had 20+ years ago, he would get dominated. He would have to greatly improve his standup and BJJ, among other things.

This basically is like arguing that Bill Russel would be a great NBA player today, or Babe Ruth would also be a great baseball player, both games have evolved so much since then. Especially MMA, where literally guys off the street would come fight and then go back to their day job.

Lol, see Brock Lesnar. He actually faired quite well and won the belt. No reason to believe Dan wouldn't have done the same. Dan was actually much more polished and accomplished. Really bad way to prove your point.