2013 NBA Finals thread: San Antonio Spurs vs. Miami Heat

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:

Originally posted by 49erha:

Not 1 not 2 not 3.... It's not about clevland it's about coming to a team that has basically bought their way into success. I have no problem with that at all its worked for them. Lebron is part of that. Just point out facts. They knew they were going to be pretty much unbeatable, I knew it. I don't hate lebron for that I don't even dislike him im just saying its a valid point when looking at his career.

Miami Heat didn't have the highest paid roster in the league.

...and if you're going to point out the facts...look at the whole picture. This is an era where Boston had Garnett, Allen, and Pierce...Kobe had Gasol, Bynum, Odom, Artest, Spurs had Duncan, Parker, Ginobili. Those rosters looked pretty unbeatable too.

There is a difference lebron left his team to join others the best players on those teams didnt leave theirs. I'm not questioning the way Miami did things I'm talking only about lebron.

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:

Originally posted by 49erha:
Not 1 not 2 not 3.... It's not about clevland it's about coming to a team that has basically bought their way into success. I have no problem with that at all its worked for them. Lebron is part of that. Just point out facts. They knew they were going to be pretty much unbeatable, I knew it. I don't hate lebron for that I don't even dislike him im just saying its a valid point when looking at his career.

Miami Heat didn't have the highest paid roster in the league.

...and if you're going to point out the facts...look at the whole picture. This is an era where Boston had Garnett, Allen, and Pierce...Kobe had Gasol, Bynum, Odom, Artest, Spurs had Duncan, Parker, Ginobili. Those rosters looked pretty unbeatable too.

All drafted by the Spurs...

Originally posted by 49erha:

Originally posted by sacniner:

Originally posted by 49erha:
Not 1 not 2 not 3.... It's not about clevland it's about coming to a team that has basically bought their way into success. I have no problem with that at all its worked for them. Lebron is part of that. Just point out facts. They knew they were going to be pretty much unbeatable, I knew it. I don't hate lebron for that I don't even dislike him im just saying its a valid point when looking at his career.

A lot of teams buy, and try to buy their way to success. It's called free agency

Like I said I have no problem with it Miami did great to take advantage of a oppertunity. However that will be a big part of lebrons legacy no denying that.

lol only for ppl who are completely biased. Magic said it best...(and I'm paraphrasing here) Lebron is the first player he has seen who can be better than MJ and after last night...rest of Lebron's career is about chasing Michael and trying to get past him.

Last year's finals performance, Game 6 against Boston, and game 7 performance of the NBA Finals will be the big part of Lebron's legacy...along with 4 MVPs, 2 FMVPs...and the fact that he's achieved all that at the age of 28. For now, that's his legacy. He still have 5 great years ahead of him if he remains healthy.

Originally posted by samoan49er:

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:

Originally posted by 49erha:
Not 1 not 2 not 3.... It's not about clevland it's about coming to a team that has basically bought their way into success. I have no problem with that at all its worked for them. Lebron is part of that. Just point out facts. They knew they were going to be pretty much unbeatable, I knew it. I don't hate lebron for that I don't even dislike him im just saying its a valid point when looking at his career.

Miami Heat didn't have the highest paid roster in the league.

...and if you're going to point out the facts...look at the whole picture. This is an era where Boston had Garnett, Allen, and Pierce...Kobe had Gasol, Bynum, Odom, Artest, Spurs had Duncan, Parker, Ginobili. Those rosters looked pretty unbeatable too.

All drafted by the Spurs...

I know...and that's great. I'm just saying, that's a great team and you can't expect Lebron or Kobe or Jordan to beat them without a lot of help.

Also, it's not Lebron's fault that Cleveland won the lottery in 2003 or he didn't graduate high-school in 1998 when Spurs won the lottery or he didn't go to a team with Shaq in his prime or never played for Pop or Phil Jackson (arguably the two best coaches in last 20 years).

Originally posted by sacniner:
You were right, at the time. Wade was in his prime, Bosh was a pereniall all-star. But, can things change over time? The last two years have been different. You obviously know your b-ball, and you're a coach. So, you can probably come with some stats and other stuff that will go over my head because you know more than me. But, I think most analyst and experts would admit that this Miami team has changed the last two years. Bosh has disappointed. Sure, some of it is cause of playing with Wade and Bron. But zero ponts yesterday? Continually struggling on the boards? That isnt' all system. He needs to shoulder a lot of that responsibility. And, Wade has been hurt. He is still really good, but he is not the Wade that won that first ring. You can't disagree with that.

With all that said, I think you should move on from that intial thinking. He was immature and was mentally soft when he signed with the Heat. The last two years have been totally different. Bosh is not a pereniall all-star now, no matter how you try and justify it. And Wade is not the guy who won a ring by himself. Things change. They have the last two years in Miami which has resulted in two rings and Bron cementing his legacy as an all-time great. And yes, those are his rings not Wade's. I guess to criticize Lebron now, one has to go back three years. Not much bad we can say about him now.

If I ever "talk over" anyone's head, it's not intentional and I'd like you to point it out to me. Basketball is an amazing game and I certainly don't have the market cornered on knowledge of it. That said, I do spend a lot more time on it than others do, and all I'm trying to do is communicate my perspective in an easily digestable way. You're a smart dude...it's never my intention to be all like, "I'm a coach and you're not, so I'm gonna say a bunch of complicated s**t to confuse you and therefore 'win' the conversation."

I think I found a good way to explain my "LeBron diminishes players who aren't shooters/drive & dish guys" perspective in a clearer, and more specific way, which will hopefully make my point more understandable, even if you don't agree. IMO, NBA offense has two major elements:

1) Dribble Penetration
2) Player Movement (ball movement comes from player movement)

I'm of the opinion that having LeBron on your team greatly diminishes #2, because he's a considerably less effective player off of the ball. When you watch Miami play, you don't see guys moving around very much at all. Especially compared to a team like San Antonio, who are on the opposite end of the spectrum and use a ton of player/ball movement. In Miami, guys spot up, or stand in "the bird cage" (as they were calling it with Chris Andersen) on the sideline, where LeBron can dump it off to the big guy for a dunk if that's available. The player/ball movement element is important, because it creates multiple opportunities for multiple players to score, because it gives multiple chances for the defense to make a mistake, whereas a spot up shooter who's just standing there doesn't.

This "just kinda stand there" element is what I believe hinders Wade & Bosh. It's not a problem for guys like Battier, Allen, Miller, etc. because that's pretty much the entirety of what they can do on the offensive end. But with Wade & Bosh, they're not put in a position to do what they do best, except for the handful of times where they are thrown a bone and the play runs through them. IMO, this is incorrectly interpreted as their abilities waning when it's actually a function of their roles within this style of play.

Miami's back-to-back champs, but IMO that's due to a significant talent advantage over the rest of the league. And that's my current thinking, not an application of my 2010 POV to today.

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Gasol was a star before he joined Lakers. Just because he wasn't gettin' the recognition for it, doesn't mean he wasn't. He was playing in the same conference with Duncan, Garnett...and then Amare was puttin' up huge numers in D'Antoni's offense. If Pau was in East - he'd make several all-star games.

Artest scored 17 ppg before joining Lakers and was a premiere perimeter defender. How is that a role player? His role on the Lakers was diminished offensively, but he was still a damn good player. Sorry, he was not a role player. Battier and Allen are role players because they're strictly bench players at this age. Ron Artest in 2009 was a pretty darn good starter in this league.

Odom was another guy who had all-star caliber. He was only coming off the bench due to necessity. He played only 29-30 minutes a game during the season. When he played 36 minutes a game, he was a double-double machine.

The injury is the only reason why I put Bynum towards the end. But, with Gasol...Lakers didn't need Bynum to play 36 minutes a game. They could easily move Gasol to Center and play Odom at PF.

I see the difference between the two. But, Lakers had more options and more talent overall. That's why when Bynum got hurt, they were able to adjust accordingly. Lakers had 2 big men and Odom who could rebound like one. This Heat team doesn't have a true Center and inserted Battier in the line-up when Bosh went down last year. When Wade is injured...Heat doesn't have a replacement.

The fact that Lakers had two big men makes them so much more versatile and talented.

Artest was a 17ppg player because Houston had no one else on the perimeter. Someone has to take shots. I mean, Andrew Goudelock was a 12ppg player for the Lakers in the playoffs because no one else was available. Houston had no interest in bringing Artest back, and the best offer he got was for the MLE. That's the type of player he was at the time.

Odom was not all-star caliber. He was a very good player, but he certainly wasn't an all-star. There's no real equivalent on Miami, because he's not in the Gasol/Bosh category, but he was better than Allen, Battier, etc. too. If Bynum was healthy I think you'd have a valid overall point here, in actuality he was a role player in the playoffs because he was playing on knees that needed surgery.

Totally, completely disagree that the Lakers were more talented. It's not even close, IMO. Two superstars + a perennial all-star (Bosh has made EIGHT ASG's in a row) is far greater than what the Lakers had. Lakers had better talent in the good/role players department, but having that second superstar more than makes up for that.

Let me put it this way. If you wanted to win immediately, would you trade 2010 Dwyane Wade for 09/10 Lamar Odom, Ron Artest, & (injured) Andrew Bynum? Absolutely not.

Originally posted by LA9erFan:
If I ever "talk over" anyone's head, it's not intentional and I'd like you to point it out to me. Basketball is an amazing game and I certainly don't have the market cornered on knowledge of it. That said, I do spend a lot more time on it than others do, and all I'm trying to do is communicate my perspective in an easily digestable way. You're a smart dude...it's never my intention to be all like, "I'm a coach and you're not, so I'm gonna say a bunch of complicated s**t to confuse you and therefore 'win' the conversation."

I think I found a good way to explain my "LeBron diminishes players who aren't shooters/drive & dish guys" perspective in a clearer, and more specific way, which will hopefully make my point more understandable, even if you don't agree. IMO, NBA offense has two major elements:

1) Dribble Penetration
2) Player Movement (ball movement comes from player movement)

I'm of the opinion that having LeBron on your team greatly diminishes #2, because he's a considerably less effective player off of the ball. When you watch Miami play, you don't see guys moving around very much at all. Especially compared to a team like San Antonio, who are on the opposite end of the spectrum and use a ton of player/ball movement. In Miami, guys spot up, or stand in "the bird cage" (as they were calling it with Chris Andersen) on the sideline, where LeBron can dump it off to the big guy for a dunk if that's available. The player/ball movement element is important, because it creates multiple opportunities for multiple players to score, because it gives multiple chances for the defense to make a mistake, whereas a spot up shooter who's just standing there doesn't.

This "just kinda stand there" element is what I believe hinders Wade & Bosh. It's not a problem for guys like Battier, Allen, Miller, etc. because that's pretty much the entirety of what they can do on the offensive end. But with Wade & Bosh, they're not put in a position to do what they do best, except for the handful of times where they are thrown a bone and the play runs through them. IMO, this is incorrectly interpreted as their abilities waning when it's actually a function of their roles within this style of play.

Miami's back-to-back champs, but IMO that's due to a significant talent advantage over the rest of the league. And that's my current thinking, not an application of my 2010 POV to today.

Sorry man, I didn't mean to sound like an a hole. It was a compliment. You know more about b-ball than almost everyone. I honestly didn't mean it like, "you're a coach so you win the convo with coach talk."

You are right that MIA stands around a lot in the half court. And that element, mixed with the best player in the world on the team, has an impact on Wade and Bosh. To what degree? I'm not sure. For Bosh, games like last night are just bad. He went from being the man, to a third option, so mentally this must have a major impact. And Wade just looks older and a little hobbled, which is expected. He has taken a pounding over the years. With that said, he is still one of the best players in the game. And Riley has done a good job of getting a bunch of shooters with LBJ. That works well for him.

Originally posted by sacniner:
Sorry man, I didn't mean to sound like an a hole. It was a compliment. You know more about b-ball than almost everyone. I honestly didn't mean it like, "you're a coach so you win the convo with coach talk."

You are right that MIA stands around a lot in the half court. And that element, mixed with the best player in the world on the team, has an impact on Wade and Bosh. To what degree? I'm not sure. For Bosh, games like last night are just bad. He went from being the man, to a third option, so mentally this must have a major impact. And Wade just looks older and a little hobbled, which is expected. He has taken a pounding over the years. With that said, he is still one of the best players in the game. And Riley has done a good job of getting a bunch of shooters with LBJ. That works well for him.

Haha. I was trying to say that I'M not trying to sound like an a-hole, not you. I wasn't offended at all by what you said, I just wanted to make sure that you knew that I don't try to "pull rank" when talking hoops. I learn a lot from talking on the board, even from basketball "civilians".

Quantifying the degree of the impact of how they play on Wade & Bosh is difficult to do. I probably think it's greater than most. You can point to Wade's physical status, but the same unanswerable question of "to what degree" comes up, and Bosh's decline has no otherwise obvious explanation.

Phil Jackson said something interesting recently about Dwight Howard that I think applies to Bosh. He was talking about how Dwight should get more post touches, and the reporter replied that Dwight had been really ineffective on his post touches this year. Instead of arguing the point...Phil agreed with the reporter. But his retort was that with a guy like Dwight, him feeling involved offensively "activates" him and gets him engaged in all elements of the game. He then went on to point out (I'm paraphrasing) that as a coach it's important to understand players as people and know what makes them tick. IMO, Bosh is completely out of his element on both ends of the court in Miami, trapping pick & rolls 25 feet from the hoop on D, and spotting up on offense, and going by Phil's logic, that might have a broader impact on his game. That doesn't completely absolve Bosh by any means, but I do think that Phil's point has validity.

Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Artest was a 17ppg player because Houston had no one else on the perimeter. Someone has to take shots. I mean, Andrew Goudelock was a 12ppg player for the Lakers in the playoffs because no one else was available. Houston had no interest in bringing Artest back, and the best offer he got was for the MLE. That's the type of player he was at the time.

Odom was not all-star caliber. He was a very good player, but he certainly wasn't an all-star. There's no real equivalent on Miami, because he's not in the Gasol/Bosh category, but he was better than Allen, Battier, etc. too. If Bynum was healthy I think you'd have a valid overall point here, in actuality he was a role player in the playoffs because he was playing on knees that needed surgery.

Totally, completely disagree that the Lakers were more talented. It's not even close, IMO. Two superstars + a perennial all-star (Bosh has made EIGHT ASG's in a row) is far greater than what the Lakers had. Lakers had better talent in the good/role players department, but having that second superstar more than makes up for that.

Let me put it this way. If you wanted to win immediately, would you trade 2010 Dwyane Wade for 09/10 Lamar Odom, Ron Artest, & (injured) Andrew Bynum? Absolutely not.

No...I would trade 2010 Wade, Bosh, Battier, Haslem for 2009 Pau Gasol + Ron Artest + Odom + Bynum if I'm matching them with Lebron. Definitely. No questions asked. I'd trade Bosh for Dwight Howard after hearing how terrible Howard is in the Lakers thread and how good Bosh is in this thread. I'll even throw in Chalmers.

Odom was not a all-star player but an all-star caliber player. Right on the cusp. Very much like how Bosh was this season. Bosh made the all-star because Spols was the coach.

Also...you can't say Bynum was hurt and then completely not mention the fact that Bosh hardly played in last year's conference finals and semi-finals and was playing hurt in the NBA Finals. You also have to mention that Wade averaged 16 ppg in the Finals and was terrible against Pacers and Bulls. He had a streak of several games where he didn't score 20.

Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Phil Jackson said something interesting recently about Dwight Howard that I think applies to Bosh. He was talking about how Dwight should get more post touches, and the reporter replied that Dwight had been really ineffective on his post touches this year. Instead of arguing the point...Phil agreed with the reporter. But his retort was that with a guy like Dwight, him feeling involved offensively "activates" him and gets him engaged in all elements of the game. He then went on to point out (I'm paraphrasing) that as a coach it's important to understand players as people and know what makes them tick. IMO, Bosh is completely out of his element on both ends of the court in Miami, trapping pick & rolls 25 feet from the hoop on D, and spotting up on offense, and going by Phil's logic, that might have a broader impact on his game. That doesn't completely absolve Bosh by any means, but I do think that Phil's point has validity.

I agree with that. But, I just think Bosh is a finesse player. He is really truly a SF trapped in a semi-PF body who is playing at Center. I'm no Phil Jackson or even have a high understanding of basketball...but I argued that point in the Lakers thread. Dwight needs to get more touches and as he gets more touches - he'll be more effective because he'll feel involved and will also feel confident.

Basketball (or any sport) is a mental as much as a physical game.

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
No...I would trade 2010 Wade, Bosh, Battier, Haslem for 2009 Pau Gasol + Ron Artest + Odom + Bynum if I'm matching them with Lebron. Definitely. No questions asked. I'd trade Bosh for Dwight Howard after hearing how terrible Howard is in the Lakers thread and how good Bosh is in this thread. I'll even throw in Chalmers.

Odom was not a all-star player but an all-star caliber player. Right on the cusp. Very much like how Bosh was this season. Bosh made the all-star because Spols was the coach.

Also...you can't say Bynum was hurt and then completely not mention the fact that Bosh hardly played in last year's conference finals and semi-finals and was playing hurt in the NBA Finals. You also have to mention that Wade averaged 16 ppg in the Finals and was terrible against Pacers and Bulls. He had a streak of several games where he didn't score 20.

Dwyane Wade "struggling" in these Finals still meant he averaged more PPG (19.6) in these Finals than Pau Gasol's best NBA Finals PPG production. That's how good he is. His bad is still really, really good.

I disagree with you so severely on the evaluation of the talent level on this team vs. those Laker squads that I don't think it's worth continuing the line of conversation.

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Haha. I was trying to say that I'M not trying to sound like an a-hole, not you. I wasn't offended at all by what you said, I just wanted to make sure that you knew that I don't try to "pull rank" when talking hoops. I learn a lot from talking on the board, even from basketball "civilians".

Quantifying the degree of the impact of how they play on Wade & Bosh is difficult to do. I probably think it's greater than most. You can point to Wade's physical status, but the same unanswerable question of "to what degree" comes up, and Bosh's decline has no otherwise obvious explanation.

Phil Jackson said something interesting recently about Dwight Howard that I think applies to Bosh. He was talking about how Dwight should get more post touches, and the reporter replied that Dwight had been really ineffective on his post touches this year. Instead of arguing the point...Phil agreed with the reporter. But his retort was that with a guy like Dwight, him feeling involved offensively "activates" him and gets him engaged in all elements of the game. He then went on to point out (I'm paraphrasing) that as a coach it's important to understand players as people and know what makes them tick. IMO, Bosh is completely out of his element on both ends of the court in Miami, trapping pick & rolls 25 feet from the hoop on D, and spotting up on offense, and going by Phil's logic, that might have a broader impact on his game. That doesn't completely absolve Bosh by any means, but I do think that Phil's point has validity.

Got you... That's an interesting perspective on Bosh. Mentally, he must be a little f**ked. He doesn't look comfortable a lot of the time... It must be worth it for a ring, I guess?

Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Dwyane Wade "struggling" in these Finals still meant he averaged more PPG (19.6) in these Finals than Pau Gasol's best NBA Finals PPG production. That's how good he is. His bad is still really, really good.

I disagree with you so severely on the evaluation of the talent level on this team vs. those Laker squads that I don't think it's worth continuing the line of conversation.

Wade average for 2012-2013 playoffs: 15.9ppg

Wade's biggest skill set is scoring. He looked good on defense sometimes, but really bad in most of the games.

Anyway, you're right it's a fruitless discussion. I don't disagree with you often...but we can't agree on everything

This is absurdly entertaining and ridiculous. lol

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by sacniner:
Sorry man, I didn't mean to sound like an a hole. It was a compliment. You know more about b-ball than almost everyone. I honestly didn't mean it like, "you're a coach so you win the convo with coach talk."

You are right that MIA stands around a lot in the half court. And that element, mixed with the best player in the world on the team, has an impact on Wade and Bosh. To what degree? I'm not sure. For Bosh, games like last night are just bad. He went from being the man, to a third option, so mentally this must have a major impact. And Wade just looks older and a little hobbled, which is expected. He has taken a pounding over the years. With that said, he is still one of the best players in the game. And Riley has done a good job of getting a bunch of shooters with LBJ. That works well for him.

Haha. I was trying to say that I'M not trying to sound like an a-hole, not you. I wasn't offended at all by what you said, I just wanted to make sure that you knew that I don't try to "pull rank" when talking hoops. I learn a lot from talking on the board, even from basketball "civilians".

Quantifying the degree of the impact of how they play on Wade & Bosh is difficult to do. I probably think it's greater than most. You can point to Wade's physical status, but the same unanswerable question of "to what degree" comes up, and Bosh's decline has no otherwise obvious explanation.

Phil Jackson said something interesting recently about Dwight Howard that I think applies to Bosh. He was talking about how Dwight should get more post touches, and the reporter replied that Dwight had been really ineffective on his post touches this year. Instead of arguing the point...Phil agreed with the reporter. But his retort was that with a guy like Dwight, him feeling involved offensively "activates" him and gets him engaged in all elements of the game. He then went on to point out (I'm paraphrasing) that as a coach it's important to understand players as people and know what makes them tick. IMO, Bosh is completely out of his element on both ends of the court in Miami, trapping pick & rolls 25 feet from the hoop on D, and spotting up on offense, and going by Phil's logic, that might have a broader impact on his game. That doesn't completely absolve Bosh by any means, but I do think that Phil's point has validity.

If you've ever played pickup ball with strangers, then you know how not getting involved on offense can sometimes make you apathetic about everything else. I've felt like that plenty of times.