Originally posted by DynastyChile: Come on guys...I'm the biggest Kobe fan i know and i would still give Jordan the nod hands down.
Kobe is the best jump shooter in the history of the game, easily...but Jordan is still the best basketball player ever. he just is. Kobe will tell you that, Magic will tell you that, sh*t i think anyone but Lebron would tell you that (no one loves lebron james more than lebron james).
No.
Kobe plays in LA. So he is the greatest player hands down. LA players always get a ratings advantage.
Plus when you consider Kobe won 1 without a center and Jordan won 6 without a center there is simply no question Kobe is the greatest player who ever lived.
[ Edited by SanDiego49er on Jan 2, 2010 at 1:17 PM ]
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Originally posted by DynastyChile: Come on guys...I'm the biggest Kobe fan i know and i would still give Jordan the nod hands down.
Kobe is the best jump shooter in the history of the game, easily...but Jordan is still the best basketball player ever. he just is. Kobe will tell you that, Magic will tell you that, sh*t i think anyone but Lebron would tell you that (no one loves lebron james more than lebron james).
No.
Kobe plays in LA. So he is the greatest player hands down. LA players always get a ratings advantage.
Plus when you consider Kobe won 1 without a center and Jordan won 6 without a center there is simply no question Kobe is the greatest player who ever lived.
alright i get the scarcasm in your post...but the whole 1 without and 6 without is a terrible statement.
Originally posted by DynastyChile: Come on guys...I'm the biggest Kobe fan i know and i would still give Jordan the nod hands down.
Kobe is the best jump shooter in the history of the game, easily...but Jordan is still the best basketball player ever. he just is. Kobe will tell you that, Magic will tell you that, sh*t i think anyone but Lebron would tell you that (no one loves lebron james more than lebron james).
No.
Kobe plays in LA. So he is the greatest player hands down. LA players always get a ratings advantage.
Plus when you consider Kobe won 1 without a center and Jordan won 6 without a center there is simply no question Kobe is the greatest player who ever lived.
alright i get the scarcasm in your post...but the whole 1 without and 6 without is a terrible statement.
Why is that a terrible statement?
Because Scottie Pippen wasn't a center.
Gasol is not a good player? Bynum, Odom and Fisher are not good? Kobe had no supporting cast? He did it all by himself...
Originally posted by DynastyChile: Come on guys...I'm the biggest Kobe fan i know and i would still give Jordan the nod hands down.
Kobe is the best jump shooter in the history of the game, easily...but Jordan is still the best basketball player ever. he just is. Kobe will tell you that, Magic will tell you that, sh*t i think anyone but Lebron would tell you that (no one loves lebron james more than lebron james).
No.
Kobe plays in LA. So he is the greatest player hands down. LA players always get a ratings advantage.
Plus when you consider Kobe won 1 without a center and Jordan won 6 without a center there is simply no question Kobe is the greatest player who ever lived.
alright i get the scarcasm in your post...but the whole 1 without and 6 without is a terrible statement.
Why is that a terrible statement?
Because Scottie Pippen wasn't a center.
Gasol is not a good player? Bynum, Odom and Fisher are not good? Kobe had no supporting cast? He did it all by himself...
Saying either Kobe or Jordan did it by themselves are both stupid arguments, thats my point. Just because Jordan didnt have a true big man, doesnt mean he did it by himself.
Originally posted by DynastyChile: Come on guys...I'm the biggest Kobe fan i know and i would still give Jordan the nod hands down.
Kobe is the best jump shooter in the history of the game, easily...but Jordan is still the best basketball player ever. he just is. Kobe will tell you that, Magic will tell you that, sh*t i think anyone but Lebron would tell you that (no one loves lebron james more than lebron james).
No.
Kobe plays in LA. So he is the greatest player hands down. LA players always get a ratings advantage.
Plus when you consider Kobe won 1 without a center and Jordan won 6 without a center there is simply no question Kobe is the greatest player who ever lived.
alright i get the scarcasm in your post...but the whole 1 without and 6 without is a terrible statement.
Why is that a terrible statement?
Because Scottie Pippen wasn't a center.
Gasol is not a good player? Bynum, Odom and Fisher are not good? Kobe had no supporting cast? He did it all by himself...
Saying either Kobe or Jordan did it by themselves are both stupid arguments, thats my point. Just because Jordan didnt have a true big man, doesnt mean he did it by himself.
Show me a team anywhere in history that won the championship with just 1 player. They all had good to really good to great supporting casts. Excellent teams tend to win championships.
If you can find me one exception to this I will stand corrected. Show me...
It doesn't change the fact that Jordan won 6 times without a center. A CENTER being the most important position on MOST CHAMPIONSHIP RUNS throughout history (most and not all).
The team success argument is a weak one that doesn't compare skill sets. Jordan had a phenomenal supporting cast, which is evidenced by the fact that they replaced him with Pete Myers, and yet the team still won 55 games....also without a great center. And the teams that they faced in the Finals...Utah, Portland, LA, Phoenix, & Seattle, had Greg Ostertag, Kevin Duckworth, Vlade Divac, Mark West, & Ervin Johnson (IIRC) starting at center too. A great center isn't nearly as essential as it's made out to be.
I think Jordan's still the better player, by a slight margin, and I'll post why when I have a little more time. But Jordan's easily the most overly romanticized player of my lifetime. It's absurd.
If it makes you feel better, Pete, I honestly believe that when Kobe retires, the Jordan romanticism will die down dramatically, especially if Kobe wins another title.
Originally posted by DynastyChile: Come on guys...I'm the biggest Kobe fan i know and i would still give Jordan the nod hands down.
Kobe is the best jump shooter in the history of the game, easily...but Jordan is still the best basketball player ever. he just is. Kobe will tell you that, Magic will tell you that, sh*t i think anyone but Lebron would tell you that (no one loves lebron james more than lebron james).
No.
Kobe plays in LA. So he is the greatest player hands down. LA players always get a ratings advantage.
Plus when you consider Kobe won 1 without a center and Jordan won 6 without a center there is simply no question Kobe is the greatest player who ever lived.
alright i get the scarcasm in your post...but the whole 1 without and 6 without is a terrible statement.
Why is that a terrible statement?
Because Scottie Pippen wasn't a center.
Gasol is not a good player? Bynum, Odom and Fisher are not good? Kobe had no supporting cast? He did it all by himself...
Saying either Kobe or Jordan did it by themselves are both stupid arguments, thats my point. Just because Jordan didnt have a true big man, doesnt mean he did it by himself.
Show me a team anywhere in history that won the championship with just 1 player. They all had good to really good to great supporting casts. Excellent teams tend to win championships.
If you can find me one exception to this I will stand corrected. Show me...
It doesn't change the fact that Jordan won 6 times without a center. A CENTER being the most important position on MOST CHAMPIONSHIP RUNS throughout history (most and not all).
Well all 6 of jordans championship teams had a great PF which helped. And none of his finals opponents had an elite Center to exploit that weakness anyway. (Vlade, Ducworth, Stanley Roberts, Ostertag, cant remember who Seattles Center was at the time). AND Cartwright was equivalent or superior to Bynum anyway, if you really want to get technical.
Originally posted by pantstickle: If it makes you feel better, Pete, I honestly believe that when Kobe retires, the Jordan romanticism will die down dramatically, especially if Kobe wins another title.
I think you're right. There will be people who were 12 years old when Kobe retired overly romanticizing the guy, and making him out to be better than he actually was.
Originally posted by dobophile: Kobe got the superstar treatment on that buzzer beater. Still amazing, though.
And all these Kobe-MJ comparisons need to stop. It's stupid and predictably leads to the same tired arguments on both sides. But Kobe definitely brought this on himself by mimicking MJ's game from Day 1. He even does MJ's half-strut/half-slink walk.
Kobe's legacy will probably be weaker than MJ's simply because of the greatness of Shaq and Duncan and Garnett. Kobe was not the undisputed dominant force of the NBA during his era. MJ was. That alone will likely tip the scales in favor of MJ, even though it's something that's completely out of Kobe's hands.
Originally posted by dobophile: Kobe got the superstar treatment on that buzzer beater. Still amazing, though.
And all these Kobe-MJ comparisons need to stop. It's stupid and predictably leads to the same tired arguments on both sides. But Kobe definitely brought this on himself by mimicking MJ's game from Day 1. He even does MJ's half-strut/half-slink walk.
Kobe's legacy will probably be weaker than MJ's simply because of the greatness of Shaq and Duncan and Garnett. Kobe was not the undisputed dominant force of the NBA during his era. MJ was. That alone will likely tip the scales in favor of MJ, even though it's something that's completely out of Kobe's hands.
"The next MJ" was a moniker that was given to several others were given, and yet we're still having it with Kobe 13 years later. In all of the other instances, it was indisputably settled. Maybe Kobe's demeanor exacerbates it, but it was brought upon others that didn't carry that demeanor either.
I think your last point is a superb one. That will definitely impact public perception. I just don't think that necessarily equates to the correct answer of who the better basketball player was/is.
As for superstar treatment, I don't understand where. What did Kobe do that was illegal? He didn't extend his arms upon contact with Rodriguez, which is what determines whether or not it was an offensive foul. It was Rodriguez' reaction that has people up in arms, as that sort of contact happens on almost every play. Bruce Bowen wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes per game if that level of contact is a foul on either player.
As for the feet out of bounds...I don't know if he was either way from the camera angles availalbe. But I can glean from Westphal's reaction (or lack thereof) that he wasn't.
The play before Milwaukee's buzzer beater was definitely an offensive foul on Kobe. This wasn't, I'm sorry.
Originally posted by dobophile: On that last play . . . I'm not saying Kobe definitely did anything illegal. I'm just saying that there were three possible violations on that play, and a whistle have been blown on almost all other NBA players, IMO.
Interesting opinion, considering it's from a spurs fan thats been burned a few too many times by The Bean.
Originally posted by dobophile: On that last play . . . I'm not saying Kobe definitely did anything illegal. I'm just saying that there were three possible violations on that play, and a whistle have been blown on almost all other NBA players, IMO.
I doubt it in the last seconds of a game. Very few borderline calls are made.
