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Harbaugh's 3-4 or Shanahan's Wide 9

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Feb 9, 2023 at 3:38 PM
  • 9moon
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 20,165
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by 9moon:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by 9moon:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by 9moon:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by Heroism:
Originally posted by Giedi:

I think Fangio's schemes are a bit out dated because of that.

Dang, someone forgot to tell all these NFL teams because Fangio's cover 6/quarters/2 shell/gap and a half defense is quite literally the hottest defensive thing in the NFL at the moment.




Welp, The Steve wilks hire kind of gives you an indication of what Kyle thinks of Fangios defense.

bottom line is that we just don' have the personnel to run the 3-4.. our LBs alone aren't build that way.. it'll take two more years before Fangio gets his type of players to run his 3-4 and the stars on D right now will either have to be paid or allow to walk..

I just don't like the 3-4, its too linebacker-centric, when you need DLinemen and DBacks to stop the pass happy NFL offenses of today. The Eagle defense is where I hope the 49er defense evolves to under Wilks. The 3-4 was great when your LBs can slobberknock the WRs going over the middle, but that's a 15 yard penalty now. The 4-2-5 and the 4-1-6 defenses are where I think the NFL is heading to, just due to the CTE and the rules changes associated with the CTE issues.

for years I've wondered why no NFL team used the TCU's 4-2-5... I've always thought that if a DC can really learn how to use this, it will be the only way to match up w/the pass happy offenses that the NFL has turned into.

Isn't the 4-2-5 just 'Nickel'? Four DL, 2 LBs, 5 DBs - that's nickel. What's different about TCU's 4-2-5?

Agree, these are nickel personnel. The difference may be the safety play. If I'm designing the 49er 4-2-5 defense, those two LBs are Fred and Greenlaw 2.0 - LBs that are fast and can cover WRs and TEs.

The safety - would be a choice of a big run stopping safety that can cover TEs, or a more coverage safety that can cover both WRs and TEs.

Where scheme is important is how John Lynchs Tampa coverage worked. It was keyed to what Lynch did more than defensive calls. If Lynch was at the LOS, the coverage was more run oriented, if Lynch backed off - the coverage did something else. That was similar to how Fred Dean was used. When Fred was on the left the defense did one thing, on the right they did something else.

basically it is a Nickel.. the difference is that Nickel D has always consist of 4 down linemen w/2 run stopping LBs..

TCU's 4-2-5 was designed to have a 3 down linemen, an EDGE rusher (who in my vocabulary is Lawrence Taylor/Derek Thomas - up OLBs) .. then a hybrid SS/LB.. call it what they want, but it is design to against a spread option formation w/a RB who can actually run instead of just being a blocker.

Got it. That's 'Big Nickel' (4 DL, 2 LB, 5 DBs)
5 DBs, in this case = 2 CBs, 3 safeties

IMO.. the 4-2-5 of TCU is more like..

3 down DL w/o a NT
1 OLB (Edge/Elephant - a Pass Rusher on the weak side)
1 ILB
1 SS/LB Hybrid/Spy
4 CBs
1 FS ( who plays Deep or call it Single )
Feb 10, 2023 at 8:59 AM
  • Giedi
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 32,246
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by 9moon:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by 9moon:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by 9moon:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by Heroism:
Originally posted by Giedi:

I think Fangio's schemes are a bit out dated because of that.

Dang, someone forgot to tell all these NFL teams because Fangio's cover 6/quarters/2 shell/gap and a half defense is quite literally the hottest defensive thing in the NFL at the moment.




Welp, The Steve wilks hire kind of gives you an indication of what Kyle thinks of Fangios defense.

bottom line is that we just don' have the personnel to run the 3-4.. our LBs alone aren't build that way.. it'll take two more years before Fangio gets his type of players to run his 3-4 and the stars on D right now will either have to be paid or allow to walk..

I just don't like the 3-4, its too linebacker-centric, when you need DLinemen and DBacks to stop the pass happy NFL offenses of today. The Eagle defense is where I hope the 49er defense evolves to under Wilks. The 3-4 was great when your LBs can slobberknock the WRs going over the middle, but that's a 15 yard penalty now. The 4-2-5 and the 4-1-6 defenses are where I think the NFL is heading to, just due to the CTE and the rules changes associated with the CTE issues.

for years I've wondered why no NFL team used the TCU's 4-2-5... I've always thought that if a DC can really learn how to use this, it will be the only way to match up w/the pass happy offenses that the NFL has turned into.

Isn't the 4-2-5 just 'Nickel'? Four DL, 2 LBs, 5 DBs - that's nickel. What's different about TCU's 4-2-5?

Agree, these are nickel personnel. The difference may be the safety play. If I'm designing the 49er 4-2-5 defense, those two LBs are Fred and Greenlaw 2.0 - LBs that are fast and can cover WRs and TEs.

The safety - would be a choice of a big run stopping safety that can cover TEs, or a more coverage safety that can cover both WRs and TEs.

Where scheme is important is how John Lynchs Tampa coverage worked. It was keyed to what Lynch did more than defensive calls. If Lynch was at the LOS, the coverage was more run oriented, if Lynch backed off - the coverage did something else. That was similar to how Fred Dean was used. When Fred was on the left the defense did one thing, on the right they did something else.

basically it is a Nickel.. the difference is that Nickel D has always consist of 4 down linemen w/2 run stopping LBs..

TCU's 4-2-5 was designed to have a 3 down linemen, an EDGE rusher (who in my vocabulary is Lawrence Taylor/Derek Thomas - up OLBs) .. then a hybrid SS/LB.. call it what they want, but it is design to against a spread option formation w/a RB who can actually run instead of just being a blocker.

Got it. That's 'Big Nickel' (4 DL, 2 LB, 5 DBs)
5 DBs, in this case = 2 CBs, 3 safeties

I'm not familiar with TCU to be honest. But I am familiar with a basic 4-2-5 defense and what Moon says with regards to three big safeties makes sense. My CB's I think would be pure cover guys, while the three big safeties (I'd have a combination on my roster of cover and run thumpers) Jeff Fuller was a big safety at about 220+ pounds, and you'd have a cover safety maybe in the 210+ lbs. So in the draft I'd be looking for a safety in the 220+ range (Plus or minus 10 lbs) Maybe some of our current guys can be converted to safety? The run thumpers have to be at least able to cover most TE's and good in zone, whereas the cover safeties are great in WR coverage and can do a good job against big TE's. The other key is they have to be Hufanga 2.0 in instincts and smarts. My scheme would depend directly on how smart and athletic the safeties would be.
Feb 10, 2023 at 9:07 AM
  • Giedi
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 32,246
Originally posted by 9moon:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by 9moon:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by 9moon:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by 9moon:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by Heroism:
Originally posted by Giedi:

I think Fangio's schemes are a bit out dated because of that.

Dang, someone forgot to tell all these NFL teams because Fangio's cover 6/quarters/2 shell/gap and a half defense is quite literally the hottest defensive thing in the NFL at the moment.




Welp, The Steve wilks hire kind of gives you an indication of what Kyle thinks of Fangios defense.

bottom line is that we just don' have the personnel to run the 3-4.. our LBs alone aren't build that way.. it'll take two more years before Fangio gets his type of players to run his 3-4 and the stars on D right now will either have to be paid or allow to walk..

I just don't like the 3-4, its too linebacker-centric, when you need DLinemen and DBacks to stop the pass happy NFL offenses of today. The Eagle defense is where I hope the 49er defense evolves to under Wilks. The 3-4 was great when your LBs can slobberknock the WRs going over the middle, but that's a 15 yard penalty now. The 4-2-5 and the 4-1-6 defenses are where I think the NFL is heading to, just due to the CTE and the rules changes associated with the CTE issues.

for years I've wondered why no NFL team used the TCU's 4-2-5... I've always thought that if a DC can really learn how to use this, it will be the only way to match up w/the pass happy offenses that the NFL has turned into.

Isn't the 4-2-5 just 'Nickel'? Four DL, 2 LBs, 5 DBs - that's nickel. What's different about TCU's 4-2-5?

Agree, these are nickel personnel. The difference may be the safety play. If I'm designing the 49er 4-2-5 defense, those two LBs are Fred and Greenlaw 2.0 - LBs that are fast and can cover WRs and TEs.

The safety - would be a choice of a big run stopping safety that can cover TEs, or a more coverage safety that can cover both WRs and TEs.

Where scheme is important is how John Lynchs Tampa coverage worked. It was keyed to what Lynch did more than defensive calls. If Lynch was at the LOS, the coverage was more run oriented, if Lynch backed off - the coverage did something else. That was similar to how Fred Dean was used. When Fred was on the left the defense did one thing, on the right they did something else.

basically it is a Nickel.. the difference is that Nickel D has always consist of 4 down linemen w/2 run stopping LBs..

TCU's 4-2-5 was designed to have a 3 down linemen, an EDGE rusher (who in my vocabulary is Lawrence Taylor/Derek Thomas - up OLBs) .. then a hybrid SS/LB.. call it what they want, but it is design to against a spread option formation w/a RB who can actually run instead of just being a blocker.

Got it. That's 'Big Nickel' (4 DL, 2 LB, 5 DBs)
5 DBs, in this case = 2 CBs, 3 safeties

IMO.. the 4-2-5 of TCU is more like..

3 down DL w/o a NT
1 OLB (Edge/Elephant - a Pass Rusher on the weak side)
1 ILB
1 SS/LB Hybrid/Spy
4 CBs
1 FS ( who plays Deep or call it Single )

Looks like primarily a pass defense first kind of scheme/philosophy with regards to the personnel and coverages and situation substitutions. Very interesting evolution in the college football domain. This goes along with my thoughts on Wilk's hopeful changes in the 49ers defense too. We shall see. My first indication of this scheme change would be the 49ers finding a big athletic safety in the Mould of another Hufanga, or possibly two -- one bigger than and the other smaller than -- Hufanga but still as instinctive and smart as Hufanga.
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