QB Brock Purdy Thread

Originally posted by 49ers81:
This is one of your ilk's favorite lies. The games weren't meaningless. Just ask people like Arik Armstead and Georger Kittle. It was that five-game winning streak, including three wins over teams who were headed to the playoffs, that helped shift the internal dynamics and culture of the team. Armstead has stated that specifically. There is a reason that Jimmy was so well thought of in the clubhouse. He was, by all accounts, a great teammate and he helped them win games, that's why Lance was NEVER going to beat him out that first year barring some absolutely amazing performance. As to the rest of your post, well it's just more of your usual nonsense trying to turn an argument that you clearly don't understand on its head, and isn't really worth responding to.

100% the bold, and altogether good post.

Originally posted by 49ers81:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 49ers81:
Well, that's kind of disingenuous.

2017 He came in late in the season and took over for the QB's who had been mostly ineffective or injured. Went 5-0
2018 He came into camp as the unquestioned starter. Who else was on the roster that the team hadn't already decided he was better than? Then he got hurt
2019 Same question as above who was on the roster for him to compete with? Then he helped the team get to the Super Bowl
2020 Same question as above. Then he gets hurt again, along with several other starters. Team goes 6-10. What other QB on the roster was as good as him.
2021 They draft Lance. Kyle states flat out that Lance would have a hard time beating Jimmy out, if anyone it's Kyle who keeps it from being a true competition.
But no serious person could believe that Lance would have beaten Jimmy out that year in a fair fight.
2022 Lance is handed the job without having done a single thing to earn it beyond being drafted #3 and the fact that Jimmy was coming off an injury and the team was trying to move on from him anyway. Based on George Kittle's recent comments, it seems to me, if that camp had been a straight up competition there is a legitimate question as to whether or not Lance would have come out on top then either. Lucky for them they decided to keep Jimmy around for one more year and, once again, he helped get them to the NFC Championship game.

If anything, it was Lance who was handed the job without having to compete for it. Now he's in a situation where he has to compete just to remain a viable option for the job. It will be up to him to show what he can do,

Jimmy got handed $125M after 5 games lol. Nothing disingenuous about that. He was the highest paid player at one point. They most certainly did not have to do that. They could have tagged him and see where it went from there.

there wasn't a legit competition for him ever. Not even when Lance came in his rookie yr. Jimmy was the starter and Lance got backup reps all though camp.

Most high end draft picks, especially at QB get the job. You draft a QB top 3 (move up), You're stating he's your dude. Not he has to compete to be the dude with whomever is still on the roster.

You're missing the point. It doesn't have anything to do with Jimmy's contract. 49ersRing's insinuation was that there was some kind of comparison to be drawn between Lance being handed the job in 2022 and Jimmy's tenure for the preceding five years, suggesting that Jimmy never had to compete for the job either, I was simply pointing out the timeline and showing that, after Jimmy's arrival at the end of 2017, there were never any legitimate options on the table outside of him, so who was he supposed to compete with.

I would also contend that Jimmy earned the job by virtue of his performance during the last part of 2017 by helping the team win five straight games, something that no other QB under Shanahan has been able to accomplish prior to Brock's arrival. I would also point out that it was the team who made the calculation to offer him the contract that they did. In exchange for that money, he helped them get to 3 NFC Championship games and a Super Bowl in four years. It seems to me that is a pretty good return on investment. It sucks that they weren't able to bring home the prize, and Jimmy bears some responsibility for that, but not all if it. Hopefully Brock, or Lance, or Darnold, will be able to correct that situation. I think Brock probably offers the best chance based on last season's performance, but I am not ruling out Lance.

However, he will have to actually do something to earn it, and not have it handed to him as it was in 2022. As to what happens with "most high-end draft picks", generally speaking, they get the job because they go to a team that played poorly enough the preceding year to draft that high. That wasn't the case with the 49ers. They believed they had a Super Bowl roster that had been derailed by injuries the previous year. They were NEVER going to let Lance start that year unless Jimmy was injured, which he was, or they fell out of the playoff hunt, which they almost did. To try and make the case for any other outcome at the position that year, just displays an incomplete understanding of that season's particular circumstances and is an argument that is usually supported by unprovable hypothesis and wild speculation.

And no, I'm not stating he's my dude. I'm merely pointing out the salient facts. I imagine that Jimmy now has a thread in the NFL forum. I wouldn't know for sure because I have never visited it and have no plans to, as I am not a Raiders fan. However, I do find myself wondering how many people who made a habit of ripping him in this forum have followed him to the Raider's thread to rip him over there. As I have often tried to point out, it usually isn't the people who supported Jimmy's tenure here that cause the problems. Now he's gone. He's no longer my concern and I will root for whatever QB wins the job this year to succeed. Go Niners!

My point wasn't to bash Jimmy, so I'm not going to go into that any further. My point was to show that most QBs don't have to compete for the job in camp. A lot of people bash Lance for being handed the job last year, but just like you said with Jimmy, who was he supposed to compete with? Nate Sudfeld? Brock Purdy, who at the time was just trying to earn a roster spot? Jimmy G, who they were trying to trade and wasn't healthy enough to participate in TC as it was? None of those make sense and going by the reports at the time, none of those guys outplayed Lance in TC anyways.

They saw enough of Lance in his rookie year in practices and behind the scene to feel comfortable moving forward with him as the starter and moving on from Jimmy. Why do people here have a problem with that? This is the only fanbase I've seen that has ever complained about a 1st round draft pick QB being made the starter without a prolonged camp battle. I doubt GB fans are complaining that Jordan Love is being handed the job in GB. KC fans didn't seem to mind trading away Alex Smith and giving Mahomes the job in 2018 with only 1 meaningless game under his belt.

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:
49er81 agrees and literally said he was handed the job last year. I guess you guys are arguing about nothing?

He suggested most picks only get handed the job when they go to bad teams. While that might be true on the whole Lance wasn't handed the job just because he was a high pick, it was that plus the coaches thought he was ready. No different then the Chiefs with Mahomes.

Being that NY made that point originally perhaps they are in agreement but he didn't say NY I agree he said high picks get the jobs because they are on bad teams, which suggests to me his belief was that Lance was a unique outlier. I used an example that shows he clearly wasnt.

Originally posted by 49ers81:
This is one of your ilk's favorite lies. The games weren't meaningless. Just ask people like Arik Armstead and Georger Kittle. It was that five-game winning streak, including three wins over teams who were headed to the playoffs, that helped shift the internal dynamics and culture of the team. Armstead has stated that specifically. There is a reason that Jimmy was so well thought of in the clubhouse. He was, by all accounts, a great teammate and he helped them win games, that's why Lance was NEVER going to beat him out that first year barring some absolutely amazing performance. As to the rest of your post, well it's just more of your usual nonsense trying to turn an argument that you clearly don't understand on its head, and isn't really worth responding to.

To the players they're never meaningless. To what matters as far as W/Ls, rank, seeding…It was meaningless.

Originally posted by jonnydel:
Because there's more to the evaluation than performance in games. While that's what matters coaches are taking more into account.

Since we're talking DB's as an example, Ambry Thomas was a 3rd rounder, but DeMo - a 5th rounder, got the first Crack early in 2021, struggled and was benched. Thomas played well at the end of 2021. During the off-season something happened where Thomas got passed by multiple players. He hasn't seen the field since even though injury provided opportunities.

You have to realize that these coaches chart EVERYTHING from practices and drills.

The extent to which Trey gets an opportunity over Brock, should Brock falter, will come down to Trey's evaluation since being with the team and where he's at. Not just because of three 1st round picks.

so it Trevor Lawrence got hurt after his first 100 passing attempts, which were for the most part s**t and E. J. Perry came in with the same team and played well for 6 games… Perry then starts in 2023 doesn't maintain his same level from a yr ago and costs them some wins…they're gonna let Perry play through his struggles and develop, while Lawrence sits the bench the whole time?

I completely disagree with that.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Not really relevant to the topic being discussed. Topic was Trey last year and him being handed things as if that's not standard operating procedure for high picks.

exactly.

Originally posted by DynastyPart2:
So NY, are you saying Trey should start this season?

No I said Brock earned the right to start the season as QB1. I don't think he gets a ton of leeway to play bad football and cost SF games for the sake of development.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 49ers81:
This is one of your ilk's favorite lies. The games weren't meaningless. Just ask people like Arik Armstead and Georger Kittle. It was that five-game winning streak, including three wins over teams who were headed to the playoffs, that helped shift the internal dynamics and culture of the team. Armstead has stated that specifically. There is a reason that Jimmy was so well thought of in the clubhouse. He was, by all accounts, a great teammate and he helped them win games, that's why Lance was NEVER going to beat him out that first year barring some absolutely amazing performance. As to the rest of your post, well it's just more of your usual nonsense trying to turn an argument that you clearly don't understand on its head, and isn't really worth responding to.

To the players they're never meaningless. To what matters as far as W/Ls, rank, seeding…It was meaningless.

As usual you are trying to have it both ways. If the games are meaningful to the players and are instrumental to the idea that those wins helped the team redefine the culture and change the team's trajectory, they are not meaningless. Whether or not they affected the team's ability to make the playoffs that year is immaterial to the fact that they clearly had a positive impact on the team's outlook moving forward and showed them that with better QB play they would be able to compete with playoff caliber teams and that Kyle's scheme could be successful. All of which are more important considerations than whether or not those wins changed the circumstance of that particular season.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:

49er81 agrees and literally said he was handed the job last year. I guess you guys are arguing about nothing?

He suggested most picks only get handed the job when they go to bad teams. While that might be true on the whole Lance wasn't handed the job just because he was a high pick, it was that plus the coaches thought he was ready. No different then the Chiefs with Mahomes.

Being that NY made that point originally perhaps they are in agreement but he didn't say NY I agree he said high picks get the jobs because they are on bad teams, which suggests to me his belief was that Lance was a unique outlier. I used an example that shows he clearly wasnt.

Hes trying to explain that Trey had his chance and got outperformed by a wide margin, and NY is having a hard time dealing with it. I don't see him disagreeing with Trey getting the job handed to him

Originally posted by 49ersRing:

Originally posted by 49ers81:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 49ers81:
Well, that's kind of disingenuous.

2017 He came in late in the season and took over for the QB's who had been mostly ineffective or injured. Went 5-0
2018 He came into camp as the unquestioned starter. Who else was on the roster that the team hadn't already decided he was better than? Then he got hurt
2019 Same question as above who was on the roster for him to compete with? Then he helped the team get to the Super Bowl
2020 Same question as above. Then he gets hurt again, along with several other starters. Team goes 6-10. What other QB on the roster was as good as him.
2021 They draft Lance. Kyle states flat out that Lance would have a hard time beating Jimmy out, if anyone it's Kyle who keeps it from being a true competition.
But no serious person could believe that Lance would have beaten Jimmy out that year in a fair fight.
2022 Lance is handed the job without having done a single thing to earn it beyond being drafted #3 and the fact that Jimmy was coming off an injury and the team was trying to move on from him anyway. Based on George Kittle's recent comments, it seems to me, if that camp had been a straight up competition there is a legitimate question as to whether or not Lance would have come out on top then either. Lucky for them they decided to keep Jimmy around for one more year and, once again, he helped get them to the NFC Championship game.

If anything, it was Lance who was handed the job without having to compete for it. Now he's in a situation where he has to compete just to remain a viable option for the job. It will be up to him to show what he can do,

Jimmy got handed $125M after 5 games lol. Nothing disingenuous about that. He was the highest paid player at one point. They most certainly did not have to do that. They could have tagged him and see where it went from there.

there wasn't a legit competition for him ever. Not even when Lance came in his rookie yr. Jimmy was the starter and Lance got backup reps all though camp.

Most high end draft picks, especially at QB get the job. You draft a QB top 3 (move up), You're stating he's your dude. Not he has to compete to be the dude with whomever is still on the roster.

You're missing the point. It doesn't have anything to do with Jimmy's contract. 49ersRing's insinuation was that there was some kind of comparison to be drawn between Lance being handed the job in 2022 and Jimmy's tenure for the preceding five years, suggesting that Jimmy never had to compete for the job either, I was simply pointing out the timeline and showing that, after Jimmy's arrival at the end of 2017, there were never any legitimate options on the table outside of him, so who was he supposed to compete with.

I would also contend that Jimmy earned the job by virtue of his performance during the last part of 2017 by helping the team win five straight games, something that no other QB under Shanahan has been able to accomplish prior to Brock's arrival. I would also point out that it was the team who made the calculation to offer him the contract that they did. In exchange for that money, he helped them get to 3 NFC Championship games and a Super Bowl in four years. It seems to me that is a pretty good return on investment. It sucks that they weren't able to bring home the prize, and Jimmy bears some responsibility for that, but not all if it. Hopefully Brock, or Lance, or Darnold, will be able to correct that situation. I think Brock probably offers the best chance based on last season's performance, but I am not ruling out Lance.

However, he will have to actually do something to earn it, and not have it handed to him as it was in 2022. As to what happens with "most high-end draft picks", generally speaking, they get the job because they go to a team that played poorly enough the preceding year to draft that high. That wasn't the case with the 49ers. They believed they had a Super Bowl roster that had been derailed by injuries the previous year. They were NEVER going to let Lance start that year unless Jimmy was injured, which he was, or they fell out of the playoff hunt, which they almost did. To try and make the case for any other outcome at the position that year, just displays an incomplete understanding of that season's particular circumstances and is an argument that is usually supported by unprovable hypothesis and wild speculation.

And no, I'm not stating he's my dude. I'm merely pointing out the salient facts. I imagine that Jimmy now has a thread in the NFL forum. I wouldn't know for sure because I have never visited it and have no plans to, as I am not a Raiders fan. However, I do find myself wondering how many people who made a habit of ripping him in this forum have followed him to the Raider's thread to rip him over there. As I have often tried to point out, it usually isn't the people who supported Jimmy's tenure here that cause the problems. Now he's gone. He's no longer my concern and I will root for whatever QB wins the job this year to succeed. Go Niners!

My point wasn't to bash Jimmy, so I'm not going to go into that any further. My point was to show that most QBs don't have to compete for the job in camp. A lot of people bash Lance for being handed the job last year, but just like you said with Jimmy, who was he supposed to compete with? Nate Sudfeld? Brock Purdy, who at the time was just trying to earn a roster spot? Jimmy G, who they were trying to trade and wasn't healthy enough to participate in TC as it was? None of those make sense and going by the reports at the time, none of those guys outplayed Lance in TC anyways.

They saw enough of Lance in his rookie year in practices and behind the scene to feel comfortable moving forward with him as the starter and moving on from Jimmy. Why do people here have a problem with that? This is the only fanbase I've seen that has ever complained about a 1st round draft pick QB being made the starter without a prolonged camp battle. I doubt GB fans are complaining that Jordan Love is being handed the job in GB. KC fans didn't seem to mind trading away Alex Smith and giving Mahomes the job in 2018 with only 1 meaningless game under his belt.

Okay, fair enough to all that. My only caveat would be that Jimmy was still under contract for one more season. He was coming off surgery that effectively precluded him from being traded and ended up being on the team anyway. So Lance was effectively handed the job without having to prove that he could beat Jimmy out. Just to head off any silly side arguments, I will also acknowledge that it might have been in the team's best interest to move Jimmy so they could have gotten something for him in return rather than let him walk as an unrestricted free agent, but that's not the way it worked out. Larry Krueger has reported that there were at least a few beat writers with access to the team, he among them, who actually thought that Brock Purdy had not only outperformed Sudfield in camp, but Lance as well. So, again, there is least an argument to be made that Lance was given the job because of his draft status and not because he had demonstrated that he was actually better than the two guys who ended up behind him.

And the further caveat to that is, that unlike Jimmy in 2017 and Brock last year, Lance hasn't yet shown he is capable of the same type of play that enabled Jimmy and Brock to step into the #1 spot when their opportunities presented themselves. Now he finds himself behind the eight ball again with Brock's emergence. At this point about the only person who can change his trajectory is him. He will need to come into camp and absolutely ball out and prove that he can run the offense as efficiently as Brock in addition to perhaps giving them some extra value with his stronger arm and better physical upside. Plus, he will also have to overcome the goodwill that Brock has generated within the locker room by virtue of the fact that he has already demonstrated to the team that they can win with Brock, in fairly dominant fashion.

Looks like Brock is on schedule to be opening day starter. Thank god, his elbow is going to be 100%, back.

Originally posted by 49ers81:
Okay, fair enough to all that. My only caveat would be that Jimmy was still under contract for one more season. He was coming off surgery that effectively precluded him from being traded and ended up being on the team anyway. So Lance was effectively handed the job without having to prove that he could beat Jimmy out. Just to head off any silly side arguments, I will also acknowledge that it might have been in the team's best interest to move Jimmy so they could have gotten something for him in return rather than let him walk as an unrestricted free agent, but that's not the way it worked out. Larry Krueger has reported that there were at least a few beat writers with access to the team, he among them, who actually thought that Brock Purdy had not only outperformed Sudfield in camp, but Lance as well. So, again, there is least an argument to be made that Lance was given the job because of his draft status and not because he had demonstrated that he was actually better than the two guys who ended up behind him.

And the further caveat to that is, that unlike Jimmy in 2017 and Brock last year, Lance hasn't yet shown he is capable of the same type of play that enabled Jimmy and Brock to step into the #1 spot when their opportunities presented themselves. Now he finds himself behind the eight ball again with Brock's emergence. At this point about the only person who can change his trajectory is him. He will need to come into camp and absolutely ball out and prove that he can run the offense as efficiently as Brock in addition to perhaps giving them some extra value with his stronger arm and better physical upside. Plus, he will also have to overcome the goodwill that Brock has generated within the locker room by virtue of the fact that he has already demonstrated to the team that they can win with Brock, in fairly dominant fashion.

Argument can also be made that Jimmy didn't demonstrate he was better than Purdy either. He was coming off another injury with zero camp. So why was he made the backup with no competition when the team showed a desire to move on from him? Simple his status as a multi year starter within the offense.

There's a lot of revisionist history now about how good Brock looked because guys want to take credit for seeing it first. I don't recall a single beat writer at the time advocating for Purdy to start. Reality is no one could've seen this coming. Same people that talk up Purdy now thought season done the moment Jimmy got hurt. Hell even I did.

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:
Hes trying to explain that Trey had his chance and got outperformed by a wide margin, and NY is having a hard time dealing with it. I don't see him disagreeing with Trey getting the job handed to him

One game and a series is hardly a chance.

Because you are working back from the conclusion that Lance is terrible you see that as a indictment of him. I see a reality in which Purdy was just that damn good and that altered the calculus going forward. Has much more to do with Brock then Lance.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
One game and a series is hardly a chance.

Because you are working back from the conclusion that Lance is terrible you see that as a indictment of him. I see a reality in which Purdy was just that damn good and that altered the calculus going forward. Has much more to do with Brock then Lance.

But again, it it was just about Purdy, Lance wouldn't be splitting reps and competing with Sam Darnold. They would be taking full advantage of the opportunity to give Lance as many reps as possible and develop him.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
One game and a series is hardly a chance.

Because you are working back from the conclusion that Lance is terrible you see that as a indictment of him. I see a reality in which Purdy was just that damn good and that altered the calculus going forward. Has much more to do with Brock then Lance.

But again, it it was just about Purdy, Lance wouldn't be splitting reps and competing with Sam Darnold. They would be taking full advantage of the opportunity to give Lance as many reps as possible and develop him.

Brock has the starting job because of how well he played - it's more of a reflection on Brock.

IMO, Lance is splitting and competing for the backup job with a known bust is a reflection on Lance and what he's shown the team during his two years. Even though he was barely playing.

Originally posted by tankle104:
Brock has the starting job because of how well he played - it's more of a reflection on Brock.

IMO, Lance is splitting and competing for the backup job with a known bust is a reflection on Lance and what he's shown the team during his two years. Even though he was barely playing.

It's a reflection on where the team thinks Lance is at short term, and not much more than that IMO.

Yesterday, 9ers4eva said it would be an indictment on Lance if he couldn't beat out Sam and I couldn't disagree more. Lance has played one year of football in the last 4 seasons, at the FCS level of college. Him losing out to Darnold wouldn't be an indictment on his future, or shocking in any way shape or form. If he had played the last two years and lost a competition to Darnold, that would be different.