A Possible Reason for not Addressing the OLine. (The Offensive Redshirt Strategy)

Originally posted by Waterbear:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
The offensive line was and is substantially better than people think it is. Thats why.

/thread

LOL. Yet 99.9% of fans/local media want to address the OL high in the draft. We'll see how you feel about this unit after a year with Trey behind it.

Like I said before in previous posts. SWH and NC are both right.

Our offensive line was better than people give it credit for but it still behooves us to make it a primary focus come draft time. We were top 5 per pff mainly due to our run blocking.

But when you look around the league we're clearly better as a pass blocking unit then at least half of the league. If TW goes down we're probably bottom 5-10. That's just the reality of the NFL right now. Quality offensive lineman are becoming rarer and rarer while quality defensive lineman are becoming more and more common.

I'm still debating internally whether or not having a bright offensive mind in KS makes OL more or less important.

On one hand I think he can still have success with a subar offensive line but if we managed to have a top 5 pass blocking line I think we would be unstoppable.

Im pro investing in our OL but please look around the league before assuming we're worse than anyone else.

Oh, most definitely. I agree on all points.

I'd say top 10 run blocking unit (really struggled at the end) and top 20 pass protection.

But now that we have a FQB, the standard needs to change. "It wasn't as bad as we thought it was" should no longer be the standard. The issue is that It's never been good enough. It needs to be good enough now if we want #6 and this unit now has even more holes than last off season.

You're right. I do believe Kyle believes he can just scheme around it and get by with get-by players at G and T. But as we've seen, that can only last you a few games until you start to see who Brunskill (C/G), Fusco, Compton, Skule, McKivitz, Person, Moore, etc. really are.

PFF also seems to slant heavily in their grading in run blocking (look at McGlinchey). Maybe because it's a passing league and every OL pass blocks far more now. Not sure why but we've seen that countless times.

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
The offensive line was and is substantially better than people think it is. Thats why.

/thread

LOL. Yet 99.9% of fans/local media want to address the OL high in the draft. We'll see how you feel about this unit after a year with Trey behind it.

Virtually Every mock draft out there has them going defense with first 2 picks

Local or national? As you always say, "Show me."

Both. All out there for you to see
Didn't you just say looking like ER first pick?

Yeah, based on the volume of visits we've had compared to other positions. I listen to every local podcast and every local media has OL as the top priority. Throw in ER/DB in there too depending on BPA.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
The offensive line was and is substantially better than people think it is. Thats why.

/thread

LOL. Yet 99.9% of fans/local media want to address the OL high in the draft. We'll see how you feel about this unit after a year with Trey behind it.

Virtually Every mock draft out there has them going defense with first 2 picks

Local or national? As you always say, "Show me."

Both. All out there for you to see
Didn't you just say looking like ER first pick?

Yeah, based on the volume of visits we've had compared to other positions. I listen to every local podcast and every local media has OL as the top priority. Throw in ER/DB in there too depending on BPA.

Which local guys and who were they projecting? I saw Kyle Madsen throw out a G in his last mock, but he has a new mock weekly and has defense majority of the time: Every mock from Barrows and Lombardi in the athletic has defense going

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
The offensive line was and is substantially better than people think it is. Thats why.

/thread

LOL. Yet 99.9% of fans/local media want to address the OL high in the draft. We'll see how you feel about this unit after a year with Trey behind it.

Virtually Every mock draft out there has them going defense with first 2 picks

Local or national? As you always say, "Show me."

Both. All out there for you to see
Didn't you just say looking like ER first pick?

Yeah, based on the volume of visits we've had compared to other positions. I listen to every local podcast and every local media has OL as the top priority. Throw in ER/DB in there too depending on BPA.

Which local guys and who were they projecting? I saw Kyle Madsen throw out a G in his last mock, but he has a new mock weekly and has defense majority of the time: Every mock from Barrows and Lombardi in the athletic has defense going

Barrows, Lombardi, Maiocco, Biderman, Peacock, Crocker, etc. The whole slew sees OL as the or a top priority like any logical person would. That said, most feel its pretty deep there too so BPA could still apply esp. for ER/DB. It just depends on who's there. Crocker has alluded to possibly a WR...heard SS a couple times.

#1 or #2 pick:

Yet 99.9% of fans/local media want to address the OL high in the draft.

No name drops yet. Too early for that. But if I hear any, I'll let ya know.

Originally posted by lamontb:
Agreed but these dudes not gonna make to day 3.

why?

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by Butter:

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

Originally posted by Giedi:
Agree with you Paso. Also the Jimmy shoulder operation really put a damper on their ability to sign OLine free agents. So I don't think it was totally their choice to forego getting a top flight free agent OLineman. Had Jimmy's contract not been there, I think they could have gotten some good free agent OLinemen.

Having said that, I think they have confidence in the draft being deep in OLinemen. They have had a good history of getting day three gems, and that speaks to me of having an excellent scouting eye with regards to the draft. Maybe, they feel like they can get some good OLine options in the draft. They have (for now - barring a trade for Jimmy) about 9 picks. I don't know if they will get a compensatory pick for losing Laken, but if they somehow use the compensatory pick rule to get more future draft picks, that's also another positive in my book for the future.

With our skill/ luck of drafting in magic Rd 5, i might be okay with trading 2 7ths + our 6th for another 5th, and then with our 3 rd 5 picks taking all OLs. If we do that, odds are good that we end up with 2 starter OLs.

or…go thru draft and then have JL draft us the equivalent of UDFA Mostert, except get an equivalently good OL instead of RB.

Either of those choices may be flights of fancy, but our guys (F.O) have done it before. Time for another End of draft/ UDFA starter OLs "murkle".

It is really interesting that they have a much higher hit rate in the later rounds.

Tin foil hat time, is that because ShannaLynch defer to Peter's and the scouting department?

Personally, and this is just conjecture on my part, but if you have good coaching, and you have a guy willing to put in the work to get better (Jauan for example) even though he's raw, and didn't have a lot of accomplishments in college -- I think that is the way you find these 3rd day gems. In other words, a part of it is good scouting, but also a big part of is (I think) good coaching.

Kyle is a big film junkie. I think a big part of Kyle's drafting evolutionary experience is that the intangibles that a player needs to be a starting NFL player in the League can't be observed on Philm. I think Kyle and John (Agree Adam Peters has a big part in this as well) have been much better recently in zeroing in on those intangibles, like work ethic, like being a workout warrior - and have gotten away, to a certain extent from superbly physically talented individuals (Pettis, Solomon, Reuben) that don't have the well developed intangibles to make it in the NFL.

It's a fair point about having the coaches to "Coach up" raw talent taken in draft, esp later, and also UDFA. Those later round guys …or UDFAs HAVE TO have great coaching to end up being a Mostert, or Kittle, or DJ Jones, et al.

As for kyle being a "philm" junkie, no question. But also there is no question that the intangibles really have a lot to do with how a player turns out. Funny thing tho is a guy like Reuben. Man he had intangibles out the "geegus". Specifically , if you happened to have seen the Gruden chalkboard interview with Reuben , where he got peppered by Gruden with chalkboard "what if " plays…that was the most impressive interview of a high draft pick I've ever seen. Reuben just destroyed that interview and Gruden was very impressed. Fast forward to season, and who is going to know that you have a hidden nut job inside the helmet. But dang could that kid ever diagnose a play when on the field at LB. The sinister part of him was so completely covered up that nobody was going to figure Reuben out. Yet IIRC 30 other teams passed on him in rd 1 and we got him at end of rd 1.

Only later did the real Reuben show up and we got kilt. Point is altho he was so A+++ football wise, we didn't see the dark side. But 30 other teams did and we got blindsided altho we drafted an immense football talent. And no, that isn't on film. That was probably more a case of everyone else knowing Reuben had had some troubles (got kicked out of combine for harassing a lowly radiology tech) plus another red flag i forgot….but the talent was so high level and football smarts off the charts, that it was a reasonable reach, even with red flags. But this was a case of personality subterfuge and thankfully JL will never take a guy like that again. If there are check marks on emotional volatility, it is best to acknowledge them and pass on that player.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
The offensive line was and is substantially better than people think it is. Thats why.

/thread

LOL. Yet 99.9% of fans/local media want to address the OL high in the draft. We'll see how you feel about this unit after a year with Trey behind it.

Virtually Every mock draft out there has them going defense with first 2 picks

Local or national? As you always say, "Show me."

Both. All out there for you to see
Didn't you just say looking like ER first pick?

Yeah, based on the volume of visits we've had compared to other positions. I listen to every local podcast and every local media has OL as the top priority. Throw in ER/DB in there too depending on BPA.

Which local guys and who were they projecting? I saw Kyle Madsen throw out a G in his last mock, but he has a new mock weekly and has defense majority of the time: Every mock from Barrows and Lombardi in the athletic has defense going

Barrows, Lombardi, Maiocco, Biderman, Peacock, Crocker, etc. The whole slew sees OL as the or a top priority like any logical person would. That said, most feel its pretty deep there too so BPA could still apply esp. for ER/DB. It just depends on who's there. Crocker has alluded to possibly a WR...heard SS a couple times.

#1 or #2 pick:

Yet 99.9% of fans/local media want to address the OL high in the draft.

No name drops yet. Too early for that. But if I hear any, I'll let ya know.

Agree OL will be picked like they do every year. But if you look at the majority of their mocks they feel defense (namely ER then secondary help) with first 2 picks then an interior guy with their 3rd/4th pick. Ideally someone who brings flexibility and could possibly be groomed behind Mack

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
Agree OL will be picked like they do every year. But if you look at the majority of their mocks they feel defense (namely ER then secondary help) with first 2 picks then an interior guy with their 3rd/4th pick. Ideally someone who brings flexibility and could possibly be groomed behind Mack

I could buy that. I believe IOL is much deeper too then ER and DB. Makes sense. But look to C or RT as our first pick if MM's (5th year) health isn't great yet or Mack retires. If they go DT or SS first, I'll lose it. LOL

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by Butter:

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

Originally posted by Giedi:
Agree with you Paso. Also the Jimmy shoulder operation really put a damper on their ability to sign OLine free agents. So I don't think it was totally their choice to forego getting a top flight free agent OLineman. Had Jimmy's contract not been there, I think they could have gotten some good free agent OLinemen.

Having said that, I think they have confidence in the draft being deep in OLinemen. They have had a good history of getting day three gems, and that speaks to me of having an excellent scouting eye with regards to the draft. Maybe, they feel like they can get some good OLine options in the draft. They have (for now - barring a trade for Jimmy) about 9 picks. I don't know if they will get a compensatory pick for losing Laken, but if they somehow use the compensatory pick rule to get more future draft picks, that's also another positive in my book for the future.

With our skill/ luck of drafting in magic Rd 5, i might be okay with trading 2 7ths + our 6th for another 5th, and then with our 3 rd 5 picks taking all OLs. If we do that, odds are good that we end up with 2 starter OLs.

or…go thru draft and then have JL draft us the equivalent of UDFA Mostert, except get an equivalently good OL instead of RB.

Either of those choices may be flights of fancy, but our guys (F.O) have done it before. Time for another End of draft/ UDFA starter OLs "murkle".

It is really interesting that they have a much higher hit rate in the later rounds.

Tin foil hat time, is that because ShannaLynch defer to Peter's and the scouting department?

Personally, and this is just conjecture on my part, but if you have good coaching, and you have a guy willing to put in the work to get better (Jauan for example) even though he's raw, and didn't have a lot of accomplishments in college -- I think that is the way you find these 3rd day gems. In other words, a part of it is good scouting, but also a big part of is (I think) good coaching.

Kyle is a big film junkie. I think a big part of Kyle's drafting evolutionary experience is that the intangibles that a player needs to be a starting NFL player in the League can't be observed on Philm. I think Kyle and John (Agree Adam Peters has a big part in this as well) have been much better recently in zeroing in on those intangibles, like work ethic, like being a workout warrior - and have gotten away, to a certain extent from superbly physically talented individuals (Pettis, Solomon, Reuben) that don't have the well developed intangibles to make it in the NFL.

It's a fair point about having the coaches to "Coach up" raw talent taken in draft, esp later, and also UDFA. Those later round guys …or UDFAs HAVE TO have great coaching to end up being a Mostert, or Kittle, or DJ Jones, et al.

As for kyle being a "philm" junkie, no question. But also there is no question that the intangibles really have a lot to do with how a player turns out. Funny thing tho is a guy like Reuben. Man he had intangibles out the "geegus". Specifically , if you happened to have seen the Gruden chalkboard interview with Reuben , where he got peppered by Gruden with chalkboard "what if " plays…that was the most impressive interview of a high draft pick I've ever seen. Reuben just destroyed that interview and Gruden was very impressed. Fast forward to season, and who is going to know that you have a hidden nut job inside the helmet. But dang could that kid ever diagnose a play when on the field at LB. The sinister part of him was so completely covered up that nobody was going to figure Reuben out. Yet IIRC 30 other teams passed on him in rd 1 and we got him at end of rd 1.

Only later did the real Reuben show up and we got kilt. Point is altho he was so A+++ football wise, we didn't see the dark side. But 30 other teams did and we got blindsided altho we drafted an immense football talent. And no, that isn't on film. That was probably more a case of everyone else knowing Reuben had had some troubles (got kicked out of combine for harassing a lowly radiology tech) plus another red flag i forgot….but the talent was so high level and football smarts off the charts, that it was a reasonable reach, even with red flags. But this was a case of personality subterfuge and thankfully JL will never take a guy like that again. If there are check marks on emotional volatility, it is best to acknowledge them and pass on that player.

Agree, and I'll add that *culture* - specifically a winning culture - is a big part of it. Walsh left the 49ers in 1989-1990, but the 49ers kept winning until after Steve Young retired. Steve was a big part of the *winning* culture. It's a standard of excellence. I do remember Walsh saying that anybody who is on the team, is free to challenge for the starting lineup. It was permitted for the rookie to challenge the veteran, actually is expected to, and encouraged to, vs waiting his turn via injury or bad play and relying on the coaching to decide who is starter.

As for intangibles, I think there are health intangibles that the 49ers need to pay attention to. Just as important as work ethic and football IQ (the Reuben Foster example you stated above) is also a health work ethic. Basically, being a workout warrior or health fanatic. Bill Romanowski is an example of this. As much as I hated Bill spitting on JJ, he was a workout warrior and basically was pretty injury free for most of his NFL career. He was a fanatic about his health and took every supplement and did every exercise to strengthen his body and make him almost impervious to injury. His ability was availability and he got better every year because he was healthy every year.

ENOUGH

with the QB talk. I think we're good there. It's obviously Trey Lance QB1 BY DEFAULT until Brocks' arm heals. Maybe even throw a vet in there.

MY CONCERN IS THIS OLINE.

Trent is pretty much one of the GOATS , we all know that but everyone else? Not so much. WTF does Shannylynch have planned on one of theee most important aspects of the game, THE OLINE?

Banks is a winner so two down. There are a number of youngsters around from the last couple of years. The team must surely know by now which of them have the potential. I am hoping for a couple of mid round picks spent on the OL to upgrade.

Interesting fact: for the last 5 years the Niners have drafted an OT in every draft.

Originally posted by English:
Banks is a winner so two down. There are a number of youngsters around from the last couple of years. The team must surely know by now which of them have the potential. I am hoping for a couple of mid round picks spent on the OL to upgrade.

Interesting fact: for the last 5 years the Niners have drafted an OT in every draft.

The interesting conclusion to draw from the bolded sentence above is that the staff is probably not good at assessing OL college talent. In this case, they should first look for free agent OL players with NFL experience and positive performance.

Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:

Originally posted by English:
Banks is a winner so two down. There are a number of youngsters around from the last couple of years. The team must surely know by now which of them have the potential. I am hoping for a couple of mid round picks spent on the OL to upgrade.

Interesting fact: for the last 5 years the Niners have drafted an OT in every draft.

The interesting conclusion to draw from the bolded sentence above is that the staff is probably not good at assessing OL college talent. In this case, they should first look for free agent OL players with NFL experience and positive performance.

Not entirely sure I agree with your conclusion. If it was that simple and the fault of our staff, other teams would not have the problem of busted early picks. But, they do. And many of the picks I mentioned were quite low.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Waterbear:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
The offensive line was and is substantially better than people think it is. Thats why.

/thread

LOL. Yet 99.9% of fans/local media want to address the OL high in the draft. We'll see how you feel about this unit after a year with Trey behind it.

Like I said before in previous posts. SWH and NC are both right.

Our offensive line was better than people give it credit for but it still behooves us to make it a primary focus come draft time. We were top 5 per pff mainly due to our run blocking.

But when you look around the league we're clearly better as a pass blocking unit then at least half of the league. If TW goes down we're probably bottom 5-10. That's just the reality of the NFL right now. Quality offensive lineman are becoming rarer and rarer while quality defensive lineman are becoming more and more common.

I'm still debating internally whether or not having a bright offensive mind in KS makes OL more or less important.

On one hand I think he can still have success with a subar offensive line but if we managed to have a top 5 pass blocking line I think we would be unstoppable.

Im pro investing in our OL but please look around the league before assuming we're worse than anyone else.

Oh, most definitely. I agree on all points.

I'd say top 10 run blocking unit (really struggled at the end) and top 20 pass protection.

But now that we have a FQB, the standard needs to change. "It wasn't as bad as we thought it was" should no longer be the standard. The issue is that It's never been good enough. It needs to be good enough now if we want #6 and this unit now has even more holes than last off season.

You're right. I do believe Kyle believes he can just scheme around it and get by with get-by players at G and T. But as we've seen, that can only last you a few games until you start to see who Brunskill (C/G), Fusco, Compton, Skule, McKivitz, Person, Moore, etc. really are.

PFF also seems to slant heavily in their grading in run blocking (look at McGlinchey). Maybe because it's a passing league and every OL pass blocks far more now. Not sure why but we've seen that countless times.

Solid post NC!

Settling for "...bad as we thought it was..." is a very poor strategy.

IMO, our QB's would stay healthy longer if our OL was better than the "Get by."

I'm really hoping Poe gets a shot at starting somewhere - Love his tenacity.

Originally posted by LasVegasWally:
Solid post NC!

Settling for "...bad as we thought it was..." is a very poor strategy.

IMO, our QB's would stay healthy longer if our OL was better than the "Get by."

I'm really hoping Poe gets a shot at starting somewhere - Love his tenacity.

By every available metric they were far better than get by in 2022.

Far worse OLs had less injury issues. Shows the correlation between injuries and OL quality is specious.