Dion Jordan DE

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
What evidence? The non existent stats like TFL and others that were debunked? I mean forget the questionable pressures, just show me 1 TFL
ah now I see....Oscar is pushing this lol.

Those same "pressures" apply to Blair too hence why they had similar grades.

Except Blair had the sacks, QB hits and TFL to actually back it up, not subjective pressures.
Please provide those TFL's for Moore.

No, total pressures encompasses it all in PFF advanced grading...sacks, hits and hurries added up in a Total Pressures category.

Just to be on the same plane, Dion had 176 snaps and a 65 grade.

I think Saleh/Kocurek love his athleticism and the chance to mold him while also having the versatility to play inside too which is something Moore can't do. I'm not at all against the signing.

NC...He had 1 FF, 1 QB hit and 2 tackles, 0 sacks and 0 TFL. So just right there for pressures he has 1 QB hit and no sacks. Yet somehow PFF attributed a bunch of TFL to him and has him graded as some pressure machine on the same level as Blair, which is flat out false. You can just watch the games and see the impact as a pass rusher Blair has in real time vs. Moore. With Moore you have to rewatch to see if it really was a pressure.
if you have those TFL's I would love to see them.

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

What evidence? The non existent stats like TFL and others that were debunked? I mean forget the questionable pressures, just show me 1 TFL
ah now I see....Oscar is pushing this lol.

Those same "pressures" apply to Blair too hence why they had similar grades.

Except Blair had the sacks, QB hits and TFL to actually back it up, not subjective pressures.
Please provide those TFL's for Moore.

No, total pressures encompasses it all in PFF advanced grading...sacks, hits and hurries added up in a Total Pressures category.

Just to be on the same plane, Dion had 176 snaps and a 65 grade.

I think Saleh/Kocurek love his athleticism and the chance to mold him while also having the versatility to play inside too which is something Moore can't do. I'm not at all against the signing.

NC...He had 1 FF, 1 QB hit and 2 tackles, 0 sacks and 0 TFL. So just right there for pressures he has 1 QB hit and no sacks. Yet somehow PFF attributed a bunch of TFL to him and has him graded as some pressure machine on the same level as Blair, which is flat out false. You can just watch the games and see the impact as a pass rusher Blair has in real time vs. Moore. With Moore you have to rewatch to see if it really was a pressure.
if you have those TFL's I would love to see them.

Sounds like you have an issue with how PFF grades a hurry, hit, and sack and their total pressures category. That's cool.

I'm just saying that they use that same operational definition to grade Blair too.

What are his raw numbers based on your stat source? Do you really believe in 200 snaps Blair had only 3 QB hits?

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
What evidence? The non existent stats like TFL and others that were debunked? I mean forget the questionable pressures, just show me 1 TFL
ah now I see....Oscar is pushing this lol.

Those same "pressures" apply to Blair too hence why they had similar grades.

Except Blair had the sacks, QB hits and TFL to actually back it up, not subjective pressures.
Please provide those TFL's for Moore.

No, total pressures encompasses it all in PFF advanced grading...sacks, hits and hurries added up in a Total Pressures category.

Just to be on the same plane, Dion had 176 snaps and a 65 grade.

I think Saleh/Kocurek love his athleticism and the chance to mold him while also having the versatility to play inside too which is something Moore can't do. I'm not at all against the signing.

NC...He had 1 FF, 1 QB hit and 2 tackles, 0 sacks and 0 TFL. So just right there for pressures he has 1 QB hit and no sacks. Yet somehow PFF attributed a bunch of TFL to him and has him graded as some pressure machine on the same level as Blair, which is flat out false. You can just watch the games and see the impact as a pass rusher Blair has in real time vs. Moore. With Moore you have to rewatch to see if it really was a pressure.
if you have those TFL's I would love to see them.

Sounds like you have an issue with how PFF grades a hurry, hit, and sack and their total pressures category. That's cool.

I'm just saying that they use that same operational definition to grade Blair too.

What are his raw numbers based on your stat source?

Lol A sack and hit are not subjective. Pressures are. When you asked me to go watch the games again rather than going off of various sources, I did and acknowledged he had some pressures.
i assume you didn't or you would know he did not have all these TFL's that PFF attributed to him and the pressures #'s were questionable.
my sources? My sources are pretty much all sites across the board which you disputed, so then I went back and watched the games per your request and gave you a recap
again.... please just provide me just 1 TFL Moore had . Shouldn't be too hard for PFF to gauge what a TFL is. And if they can't then I would seriously question what they are watching

If we were gonna consider someone like Jordan who has been suspended multiple times I would have loved to just bring Aldon Smith back. We know for sure he has elite pass rush skills

Originally posted by NCommand:

200 snaps vs. 57...hence, "...playing at a Blair level."

Now, could he sustain that for 143 more snaps? That's at least debatable.

That's not Blair level because he played in a 1/4 of the snaps. There's no reason to throw Blair into the discussion....again that's like saying Turay played at Bosa' level

Originally posted by okdkid:

I do appreciate the rush to find all his positives though. We could sign a road cone and the zone would play up how unflappable it is under pressure.

Lol true

Just looking at the positives...even is there's not much

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

What evidence? The non existent stats like TFL and others that were debunked? I mean forget the questionable pressures, just show me 1 TFL
ah now I see....Oscar is pushing this lol.

Those same "pressures" apply to Blair too hence why they had similar grades.

Except Blair had the sacks, QB hits and TFL to actually back it up, not subjective pressures.
Please provide those TFL's for Moore.

No, total pressures encompasses it all in PFF advanced grading...sacks, hits and hurries added up in a Total Pressures category.

Just to be on the same plane, Dion had 176 snaps and a 65 grade.

I think Saleh/Kocurek love his athleticism and the chance to mold him while also having the versatility to play inside too which is something Moore can't do. I'm not at all against the signing.

NC...He had 1 FF, 1 QB hit and 2 tackles, 0 sacks and 0 TFL. So just right there for pressures he has 1 QB hit and no sacks. Yet somehow PFF attributed a bunch of TFL to him and has him graded as some pressure machine on the same level as Blair, which is flat out false. You can just watch the games and see the impact as a pass rusher Blair has in real time vs. Moore. With Moore you have to rewatch to see if it really was a pressure.
if you have those TFL's I would love to see them.

Sounds like you have an issue with how PFF grades a hurry, hit, and sack and their total pressures category. That's cool.

I'm just saying that they use that same operational definition to grade Blair too.

What are his raw numbers based on your stat source?

Lol A sack and hit are not subjective. Pressures are. When you asked me to go watch the games again rather than going off of various sources, I did and acknowledged he had some pressures.
i assume you didn't or you would know he did not have all these TFL's that PFF attributed to him and the pressures #'s were questionable.
my sources? My sources are pretty much all sites across the board which you disputed, so then I went back and watched the games per your request and gave you a recap
again.... please just provide me just 1 TFL Moore had . Shouldn't be too hard for PFF to gauge what a TFL is. And if they can't then I would seriously question what they are watching

I totally agree with you in that TFL, hits and (full) sacks are really easy to record and pressures are more subjective (does he move the QB off the spot, force his eyes down to run, etc.).

So I understand where you're coming from when you see the PFF points on "Total Pressures."

All I'm saying is as long as they are consistent in their OWN operational definitions on that, that's fine.

Do you believe Blair only had 3 QB hits in 200 snaps?

PS: I had reviewed every snap back then and had nearly identical to what DL (Oscar) had said and I also asked Jeff Deeney as well so I could get a feel for HOW they grade.

I remember when he was coming out of Oregon, he was a special athlete. Unfortunately, it just never transferred to the field for whatever reason.

As someone above mentioned, he would be helpful with the Mobile QBs cause of his athleticism.

I think the reward here outweighs the risk, but nothing to be excited about

Originally posted by NCommand:
I totally agree with you in that TFL, hits and (full) sacks are really easy to record and pressures are more subjective (does he move the QB off the spot, force his eyes down to run, etc.).

So I understand where you're coming from when you see the PFF points on "Total Pressures."

All I'm saying is as long as they are consistent in their OWN operational definitions on that, that's fine.

Do you believe Blair only had 3 QB hits in 200 snaps?

PS: I had reviewed every snap back then and had nearly identical to what DL had said and I also asked Jeff Deeney as well so I could get a feel for HOW they grade.

I am not sure why Blair and Moore keep getting compared. They are not even in the same stratosphere as players Imo. Not to mention I am specifically questioning the flawed Moore #s,
Interesting. So you saw those high TFL #s attributed to Moore? I would also really like to hear their, and your, explanation as to how they could attribute numerous, let alone 1, TFL to Moore.

They're stockpiling depth in case guys get the virus or get injured. None of these guys are costing a lot of money so it's worth signing them in this uncertain season.

Originally posted by ayleswbj11:

If we were gonna consider someone like Jordan who has been suspended multiple times I would have loved to just bring Aldon Smith back. We know for sure he has elite pass rush skills

I would too, but I think he signed with the Cowboys

Not bad for a rotational/backup guy. Not like we're expecting 8+ sacks. If he gets 2 pressures a game, gravy.

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

I am not sure why Blair and Moore keep getting compared. They are not even in the same stratosphere as players Imo. Not to mention I am specifically questioning the flawed Moore #s,
Interesting. So you saw those high TFL #s attributed to Moore? I would also really like to hear their, and your, explanation as to how they could attribute numerous, let alone 1, TFL to Moore.

The beauty of sports. One player can be less talented than another but both produce on the field in a similar fashion for a variety of reasons. That's what DL's post referenced. Oscar's too.

Do you remember the TFL stat? I'm not disputing that one at all. That may be off. That said, that CAN be a bit subjective too. If Moore tackles a RB right at the LOS, who grades that a TFL and who grades that as just a tackle? 6 inches of where the ball is spotted could be the difference? Or maybe PFF considers that zero-gain a TFL as part of their operational definition?

PS: I was more in line with their total pressures overall. Don't quote me on this (get it?) but I too believe I had 15 total pressures over those 2 games. I know Oscar referenced at least 7 in both. So that adds up to me.

Originally posted by ayleswbj11:

If we were gonna consider someone like Jordan who has been suspended multiple times I would have loved to just bring Aldon Smith back. We know for sure he has elite pass rush skills

No that would be like getting back together with an ex you broke up with because your relationship was completely dysfunctional as all hell.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
I am not sure why Blair and Moore keep getting compared. They are not even in the same stratosphere as players Imo. Not to mention I am specifically questioning the flawed Moore #s,
Interesting. So you saw those high TFL #s attributed to Moore? I would also really like to hear their, and your, explanation as to how they could attribute numerous, let alone 1, TFL to Moore.

The beauty of sports. One player can be less talented than another but both produce on the field in a similar fashion for a variety of reasons. That's what DL's post referenced. Oscar's too.

Do you remember the TFL stat? I'm not disputing that one at all. That may be off. That said, that CAN be a bit subjective too. If Moore tackles a RB right at the LOS, who grades that a TFL and who grades that as just a tackle? 6 inches of where the ball is spotted could be the difference? Or maybe PFF considers that zero-gain a TFL as part of their operational definition?

PS: I was more in line with their QB pressures overall.

Except they didn't perform at the same level and Moore going down is not what caused the pass rush to nosedive, that was my point
you posted the stats multiple times and we had a huge conversation/debate about it which led me to go watch his snaps. He had zero TFL and it Wasn't even close to being subjective he didn't even have as many tackles overall as they said he had in TFL. Which is what I found so bizarre.
ah ok. Well if you go back and watch his snaps would love to see these TFL