Examining the Red Zone Issues & How to Fix Them

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Heroism:

Definitely not clicking.

I read all of it and will save folks the trouble now:

Kyle is starting to get it because he drafted Hurd, Kaden Smith, and signed JMatthews. Getting bigger = more red zone TDs. The end.

It was kinda funny he brought up the rams and their rushing TDs inside the 10....Rams with the greatest offensive mind this league ever seen was at 56% in the RZ which was 19th in the league.

Still like my feelings about RZ being a QB driven number that shows itself when you start to put seasons in scheme together. Drew Brees worst RZ performance was like 56% in NO. Other than that it's usually well in the 60's and more times then not at top 5 finish. Continuity is the thing.

QB'S make faster decisions with continuity. Heck the entire 11 man offense will be faster if they played together longer. But being physically superior running the ball in the red zone makes QB'ing a lot easier. The red zone is the most difficult part of the field to score on. And some offenses (Harbaugh) never figured it out.

Another thing to mention is that I felt like Kyle had some success with RPOs inside the 10. I'd like to see us implement more of that. The RPO gives the advantage of a quicker pass than you'd have with typical play action in that area, with the same benefit of freezing a defender usually.

Originally posted by NCommand:

I'm buying this...esp. coupled with health, OL play and play calling. But this probably has the edge.

Like in Minnesota, are we keeping in max protection (only 2 receiving options) because their DL is so dominant, the OL is too weak to sustain the protection or at executing blocking schemes in tight quarters, the QB might need more time and is excellent at off schedule plays anyways, our weaker receivers might need extra time to shake loose, etc?

So many factors play into this but QB and ay caller in sync with experience is probably key.

What about audibles?

When a team has continuity especially at the QB position it opens up the entire playbook and promotes RZ success. Let say Kyle stayed in ATL and had 4 seasons with Matt Ryan and his numbers were the following:

2015 - 55% (real stat)
2016 - 65% (real stat)
2017 - 60%
2018 - 62%

Of course 17 and 18 are hypothetical and now to the level of the 16 team, but this narrative of Kyle being weak in the RZ wouldn't exist. The above basically represents what McDanial does with Brady and Brees does with Payton. Kyle's never had the benefit of having a QB for a substantial amount of time. Hopefully Jimmy is the guy and this narrative goes away.

I think you guys are over thinking it. When the players and coaches are asked about what's different in the red zone, they all say everything happens quicker. The QB read quicker, the throw quicker, getting open quicker, the misdirection quicker. And it all starts with the qb.

In the last 2 years, has Kyle's got a full season of out of one of his QB?

Yeah, that's the problem.

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by NCommand:

I'm buying this...esp. coupled with health, OL play and play calling. But this probably has the edge.

Like in Minnesota, are we keeping in max protection (only 2 receiving options) because their DL is so dominant, the OL is too weak to sustain the protection or at executing blocking schemes in tight quarters, the QB might need more time and is excellent at off schedule plays anyways, our weaker receivers might need extra time to shake loose, etc?

So many factors play into this but QB and ay caller in sync with experience is probably key.

What about audibles?

When a team has continuity especially at the QB position it opens up the entire playbook and promotes RZ success. Let say Kyle stayed in ATL and had 4 seasons with Matt Ryan and his numbers were the following:

2015 - 55% (real stat)
2016 - 65% (real stat)
2017 - 60%
2018 - 62%

Of course 17 and 18 are hypothetical and now to the level of the 16 team, but this narrative of Kyle being weak in the RZ wouldn't exist. The above basically represents what McDanial does with Brady and Brees does with Payton. Kyle's never had the benefit of having a QB for a substantial amount of time. Hopefully Jimmy is the guy and this narrative goes away.

I'm definitely buying that.

The best solution is score from outside the red zone. I know that's not practical but we all know what a problem it's been for this team. (and others). The DB's and LB's have way less territory to cover as you get closer to the goal line so it's only natural that it gets tougher to score. You can say a strong running game is the answer and it certainly helps, but since passing is more difficult in the zone defenses can cheat a little and defend the run more. When you're inside the 10 the DB's can come up and make tackles on outside runs while the line and LB's shut off the middle. There is a reason so many teams have been successful using that bend but don't break defense over the years.

Why isn't Juice successful as a larger, short yardage back? In the days of Roger Craig and Tom Rathman, Rathman often got the short yardage call and was successful.

I tend to think the problem is the interior OL. ShanaLynch's de-emphasis of the guards most strongly shows up in short yardage. You have to have the threat of a run up the gut getting at least two yards for play action and other pass plays to have a good chance of working.

Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
Why isn't Juice successful as a larger, short yardage back? In the days of Roger Craig and Tom Rathman, Rathman often got the short yardage call and was successful.

I tend to think the problem is the interior OL. ShanaLynch's de-emphasis of the guards most strongly shows up in short yardage. You have to have the threat of a run up the gut getting at least two yards for play action and other pass plays to have a good chance of working.

You are correct and that is a problem. When the pass is being taken away, you need that big back to bust thru the middle. As you stated, when you don't have big dominating guards it is really hard to open those holes. It also helps a lot if the line has been together awhile so they can do the coordinated blocking that is needed down there. We all know that O line continuity has been an issue in recent years.

Originally posted by CatchMaster80:
The best solution is score from outside the red zone. I know that's not practical but we all know what a problem it's been for this team. (and others). The DB's and LB's have way less territory to cover as you get closer to the goal line so it's only natural that it gets tougher to score. You can say a strong running game is the answer and it certainly helps, but since passing is more difficult in the zone defenses can cheat a little and defend the run more. When you're inside the 10 the DB's can come up and make tackles on outside runs while the line and LB's shut off the middle. There is a reason so many teams have been successful using that bend but don't break defense over the years.

Bill Walsh agrees with the bolded.
http://www.westcoastoffense.com/bill%20walsh%20article%201.htm
I have seen many teams march the ball beautifully, but right around the 15-yard line, they are already warming up their placekicker, because right at that point defenses change, the field they can operate in changes, and suddenly their basic offense goes all to pieces.
My contention is that if we are on their 25, we're going for the end zone.

Originally posted by thl408:
Bill Walsh agrees with the bolded.
http://www.westcoastoffense.com/bill%20walsh%20article%201.htm
I have seen many teams march the ball beautifully, but right around the 15-yard line, they are already warming up their placekicker, because right at that point defenses change, the field they can operate in changes, and suddenly their basic offense goes all to pieces.
My contention is that if we are on their 25, we're going for the end zone.

BOMBS AWAY!!!!!!!

Originally posted by CatchMaster80:

Originally posted by thl408:

Bill Walsh agrees with the bolded.
http://www.westcoastoffense.com/bill%20walsh%20article%201.htm
I have seen many teams march the ball beautifully, but right around the 15-yard line, they are already warming up their placekicker, because right at that point defenses change, the field they can operate in changes, and suddenly their basic offense goes all to pieces.
My contention is that if we are on their 25, we're going for the end zone.

BOMBS AWAY!!!!!!!

That's what I've been saying. Kyle's redzone is more like the 30, maybe even the 40.

Remember Celek Time



Look at all that space to work in the redzone 😂

Originally posted by thl408:
Bill Walsh agrees with the bolded.
http://www.westcoastoffense.com/bill%20walsh%20article%201.htm
I have seen many teams march the ball beautifully, but right around the 15-yard line, they are already warming up their placekicker, because right at that point defenses change, the field they can operate in changes, and suddenly their basic offense goes all to pieces.
My contention is that if we are on their 25, we're going for the end zone.

" My contention is that if we are on their 25, we're going for the end zone. Failing at that, we will kick a field goal. In an evenly matched game, I don't want to try to take the ball from their 25 to the goal line by trying to smash it through people, because three out of four times, you won't make it. Unless you are superior. Of course, if you are vastly superior it makes very little difference how you do it.

Why? First, every defensive coach in the country is going to his blitzes about right there. The pass coverage, by and large, will be man-to-man coverage. We know that if they don't blitz one down, they're going to blitz the next down. Automatically. They'll seldom blitz twice in a row but they'll blitz every other down. If we go a series where there haven't been blitzes on the first two downs, here comes the safety blitz on the third down. So we are looking, at that point, to get into the end zone.

By the style of our football, we'll have somebody to get the ball to a little bit late-just as an outlet to get 4 or 5 yards, to try to keep it. But from the 25 to the 10, we're going for the end zone."

The bolded and italicized is basically what we know as the west coast offense.....You are either throwing a TD or a checkdown.

Originally posted by qnnhan7:

I think you guys are over thinking it. When the players and coaches are asked about what's different in the red zone, they all say everything happens quicker. The QB read quicker, the throw quicker, getting open quicker, the misdirection quicker. And it all starts with the qb.

In the last 2 years, has Kyle's got a full season of out of one of his QB?

Yeah, that's the problem.

I'll just add that the throwing windows are much tinyer. I mean the John Taylor TD throw by Joe in the Super Bowl was in a very tight window, and if I recall correctly, it was not much more than a 3 step drop. You need to be either stronger, quicker or faster than the other defense in the red zone to have a good chance of scoring.

HOW TO FIX THE RED ZONE
PROBLEM


1. Have a great QB
2. The offense needs to exceute it's play
better than the defense.


THE END

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:

I think you guys are over thinking it. When the players and coaches are asked about what's different in the red zone, they all say everything happens quicker. The QB read quicker, the throw quicker, getting open quicker, the misdirection quicker. And it all starts with the qb.

In the last 2 years, has Kyle's got a full season of out of one of his QB?

Yeah, that's the problem.

I'll just add that the throwing windows are much tinyer. I mean the John Taylor TD throw by Joe in the Super Bowl was in a very tight window, and if I recall correctly, it was not much more than a 3 step drop. You need to be either stronger, quicker or faster than the other defense in the red zone to have a good chance of scoring.

I remember Phil Simms talked about throwing in the redzone/goal line when he was just started playing for Parcells. Simms has good arm but not the strongest in the NFL at the time. Parcells was critical of him in the redzone. I don't remember Simms exact words but he basically said Parcells told him to grow some balls and throw the ball. The opportunities are there. The windows aren't going to get any bigger for him. Oh, and BTW don't go retard and throw an INT

So he had to find it within himself to overcome whatever it was, make a timely thrown ball and not s**t the bed either.

I think our QB not name Jimmy G might have to learn that too

Love the Bill Walsh quotes - nice job providing that!

I think the key to redzone running back success is the RB's ability to slip tackles in creases for 2 yards, not necessarily blow thru people. Think Marcus Allen. His ability to find a crease and avoid the big direct hit was legendary. Think of all the RB TD runs you see - the RB glances off the first hit and still gets 2 yards.

I see some hope for Hurd in this regard. Watch his running highlights. He seems to avoid the big hits and find those creases for extra yards. Imagine combining that ability with his size on a bubble screen?

I have hopes he can add a lot to our RZ options this year.