How to build around a franchise QB

Originally posted by NCommand:

Build the trenches, inside-out, strong down the middle.

Buckner, Day, Foster, Tartt and Colbert.

Since we have the defense, move to the offense:

Jimmy, C, G's, Breida, HB and Juice.

Build the trenches, strong down the middle....basically a variation of Vince Lombardi...."build your lines first." As to the above, i would add Solomon to Buckner, Day, Foster, Tartt and Adrian. Also would keep AA for rotation in middle. Keep Mitchell. And remember we turned ove 37 of our 53 players last yr, ended up with 20 on IR, PUP or whatever, so first thing is to evaluate WTF we have on D, and then add to the guys we want to keep. We are just an ER away , plus a LB. I think we find 2, maybe even 3 guys that john has brot in to make a very nice D...but we need that ER.

On O, it is straight forward....OG, C , OG, and try as hard as we can to get C and 1 OG in FA and then high pick rd 1 or 2 OG. Then keep Garnett, and let Laken, FSCO, not Kilgore, and let them fight it out for rotation behind the two OGs and one C we pick up. Joe and Trenton are our OTs, and see if we can bring D. Williams as our backup OT....make it open competition.

Meantime, we have lots of talent on DL, esp if you factor in the guys we picked up along with our draft picks. Etc. So see is some of those 17 guys we didn't Schd can can actually play. remember we are looking for an ER primarily, and then need a more depth around those named above. When we get those 20 guys off IR, and on the field, it will be interesting to see what's we really have. I am hoping it is more then we think. Right now we have to have starter OG C OG ER. That would sure go a long way towards getting us healthy. with Day, I am curious what else we get out of Day. But right now i like buck, Solomon, Reuben, day, AA, Mitchell, dooms, etc with Reuben in middle and Adrian in back.

Originally posted by NinerLegionnaire:

A FQB is extremely rare to have, and they can leave, get injured, or eventually regress/decline. With that in mind I would choose to maximize the offensive potential, but that doesn't necessarily men 1st round picks across the board, it's all about getting guys to execute the scheme.

In my opinion any team who focuses on one side of the ball, puts themselves at a disadvantage. In the playoffs they can get beat by teams who more balanced or whose strength is better than and matches up with it's own strength. The Packers are a great example of that right now, the Saints in the past are another, although there are always exceptions. The FQB is going to execute the scheme, hitting guys on time and elevating the play of those around him. I really feel you need guys like that on both sides, so the philosophy always remains whole. Dilfer and the Ravens and teams like those are outliers, teams that consistently compete for championships have balance. Brady hasn't always had the best of defenses, but even in those times the defense has either had a front seven to get to the QB, or a secondary that creates timely turnovers.

My philosophy consists of an offense with professional types who put in the film work and go out and execute the play, and a defense with aggressive athletic types, who fly to the ball and once again execute. People talk about middle of the defense, but you line both sides up and it's the middle of the team that needs to be strong. QB, Line, RB, D-Line, LB. With a FQB on the roster, the 1st priority is to protect him. Find the best lineman for the scheme and do whatever it takes to get them. Skill players are like chess pieces, you use them to execute certain concepts/strategies/situations, so you get guys who do certain things that compliment your scheme, those guys can be found after the 1st. If you have that FQB the idea is to get him on the field as much as possible and have him remain on the field as much as possible. You have the protection fixed first, then identify what traits for skill positions compliment your scheme. Next you focus on getting your FQB on the field, which is front seven. Collapse the pocket first and foremost then fly to the ball. Athletic guys who can do that on defense tend to go high, so if you just focus on the offense you more than likely won't be able to find those guys unless you pay for them. Paying for those guys cost you the ability to resign your complimentary pieces which leaves holes for good teams to exploit.

Simple summary:
Process with FQB in place.
1.Build Line: Spend 1-3 years getting the best possible scheme-fit lineman available.
2. Defensive Dogs: After identifying the best lineman available each year the focus would shift to the best scheme-fit athletic defenders. Pass rushers and LB's with range and closing ability first, then aggressive DB's.
3. Identify skill players with incomplete all-around skill sets whose plus traits compliment scheme. Later Draft picks/Lower tier FA. Install those guys into concepts they can execute and slowly have the franchise QB help build up there skill sets.
4. Stick to the process: Once the line is built you can choose who to let go and replace, and go piece by piece. The skill players in my philosophy are always replaceable, and the defense is constantly phased out for young and athletic players. Big Money goes to QB and O-line only. Any other players wouldn't be resigned to top tier contracts. Players like Buckner and Foster could be exceptions. Both can play multiple positions and disrupt in multiple facets of the game and their positions typically don't cost as much as ends and cornerbacks. Both of those positions (DE/DB) would be drafted highly each year to replace talent and for rotation and never resigned unless to team friendly deals, same goes for Safeties, and on offense WR's and RB's, although those positions the focus would be more on later rounds.

We don't have the time for a 7 year plan

Just sit Jimmy next to Lynch and tell him what he wants lol

Originally posted by Heroism:
Mike Lombardi was 95.7 a few months ago, and a similar conversation came up. He worked under Bill Walsh as scout 1984-1987 and said that Walsh believed that the offensive skill positions should be invested in only after the OL and defense were built.

Do that.

Heavy DB focus in 1981 draft. Dwight Clark in very late round.

Craig in 1983?

Rice in 1985.

Haley & Taylor in 1986.

Romanowski in 1988?

There are a few others I'm not naming because I'm unsure of year. Figure Don Griffin and Tim Mckyer in the late '80s. Brent Jones I believe was '87 or '88.

Niner OL was rebuilt a few times during the '80s I think.

'81 49ers were #2 or #3 defense I believe.

Originally posted by JTsBiggestFan:

Originally posted by Heroism:
Mike Lombardi was 95.7 a few months ago, and a similar conversation came up. He worked under Bill Walsh as scout 1984-1987 and said that Walsh believed that the offensive skill positions should be invested in only after the OL and defense were built.

Do that.

Heavy DB focus in 1981 draft. Dwight Clark in very late round.

Craig in 1983?

Rice in 1985.

Haley & Taylor in 1986.

Romanowski in 1988?

There are a few others I'm not naming because I'm unsure of year. Figure Don Griffin and Tim Mckyer in the late '80s. Brent Jones I believe was '87 or '88.

Niner OL was rebuilt a few times during the '80s I think.

'81 49ers were #2 or #3 defense I believe.

Thanks to Joe Thomas' OJ trade, Walsh was short of top draft picks before '81. The defense showed it as it was awful before that season. What was fascinating about that team was that outside of Montana, we had no one of repute on offense. Ricky Patton, Freddie Solomon and Dwight Clark (though thanks to Joe, Clark made the Pro Bowl in '81 and Freddie had just shy of 1000 yds.) weren't on anybody's radar as top skill players. Patton led the team in rushing with 543 yds!

We had Joe, very good lines, and a brand new defense in '81. On D we had 4/5 new starters (rookies Ronnie Lott, Carlton Williamson and Eric Wright in the secondary, long-in-the-tooth crazy man tough guy leader Rams castoff FA Hacksaw Reynold as MLB on running downs, and most importantly Fred Dean, the perennial 1st team All-Pro pass rusher extraordinaire in the trade steal from the Chargers). A good line, Joe, and the Bill Walsh offense killed it while on defense we got nowhere until we had talent.

Originally posted by RTFirefly:

Originally posted by JTsBiggestFan:

Originally posted by Heroism:
Mike Lombardi was 95.7 a few months ago, and a similar conversation came up. He worked under Bill Walsh as scout 1984-1987 and said that Walsh believed that the offensive skill positions should be invested in only after the OL and defense were built.

Do that.

Heavy DB focus in 1981 draft. Dwight Clark in very late round.

Craig in 1983?

Rice in 1985.

Haley & Taylor in 1986.

Romanowski in 1988?

There are a few others I'm not naming because I'm unsure of year. Figure Don Griffin and Tim Mckyer in the late '80s. Brent Jones I believe was '87 or '88.

Niner OL was rebuilt a few times during the '80s I think.

'81 49ers were #2 or #3 defense I believe.

Thanks to Joe Thomas' OJ trade, Walsh was short of top draft picks before '81. The defense showed it as it was awful before that season. What was fascinating about that team was that outside of Montana, we had no one of repute on offense. Ricky Patton, Freddie Solomon and Dwight Clark (though thanks to Joe, Clark made the Pro Bowl in '81 and Freddie had just shy of 1000 yds.) weren't on anybody's radar as top skill players. Patton led the team in rushing with 543 yds!

We had Joe, very good lines, and a brand new defense in '81. On D we had 4/5 new starters (rookies Ronnie Lott, Carlton Williamson and Eric Wright in the secondary, long-in-the-tooth crazy man tough guy leader Rams castoff FA Hacksaw Reynold as MLB on running downs, and most importantly Fred Dean, the perennial 1st team All-Pro pass rusher extraordinaire in the trade steal from the Chargers). A good line, Joe, and the Bill Walsh offense killed it while on defense we got nowhere until we had talent.

Very true. If we have a good O-line and D, we will always be in the mix so long as we have a QB. We also have to keep in mind the talent that will be available. There will be good corners, guards, and linebackers available. Pass rushers, not so much, unless we use our first round pick. And even then, I feel more secure in the first round corners (Jackson) and linebackers (Smith) that will be available than the pass rushers. Chubb looks good, but lacks the speed we will need. Landry has the speed, but Smith is more of a sure bet.

Hoping that we will address our needs but will be wise in doing so and won't reach for a player. On defense, I'm thinking we can have 10 solid starters next year and hoping that we can see more big plays from at least one guy at every level. We should have secured position for the next 2-3 years with the exception of RDE (I'm only excluding that because I don't see it being filled provided what is available.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Build the trenches, inside-out, strong down the middle.

Buckner, Day, Foster, Tartt and Colbert.

Since we have the defense, move to the offense:

Jimmy, C, G's, Breida, HB and Juice.

Build the trenches, strong down the middle....basically a variation of Vince Lombardi...."build your lines first." As to the above, i would add Solomon to Buckner, Day, Foster, Tartt and Adrian. Also would keep AA for rotation in middle. Keep Mitchell. And remember we turned ove 37 of our 53 players last yr, ended up with 20 on IR, PUP or whatever, so first thing is to evaluate WTF we have on D, and then add to the guys we want to keep. We are just an ER away , plus a LB. I think we find 2, maybe even 3 guys that john has brot in to make a very nice D...but we need that ER.

On O, it is straight forward....OG, C , OG, and try as hard as we can to get C and 1 OG in FA and then high pick rd 1 or 2 OG. Then keep Garnett, and let Laken, FSCO, not Kilgore, and let them fight it out for rotation behind the two OGs and one C we pick up. Joe and Trenton are our OTs, and see if we can bring D. Williams as our backup OT....make it open competition.

Meantime, we have lots of talent on DL, esp if you factor in the guys we picked up along with our draft picks. Etc. So see is some of those 17 guys we didn't Schd can can actually play. remember we are looking for an ER primarily, and then need a more depth around those named above. When we get those 20 guys off IR, and on the field, it will be interesting to see what's we really have. I am hoping it is more then we think. Right now we have to have starter OG C OG ER. That would sure go a long way towards getting us healthy. with Day, I am curious what else we get out of Day. But right now i like buck, Solomon, Reuben, day, AA, Mitchell, dooms, etc with Reuben in middle and Adrian in back.

To be fair, Walsh's strategy worked because he hit on a lot of draft picks. :) Baalke also adopted the middle-out approach but he couldn't deliver the talent.

In reality, the decisions are more complicated because teams allocate budget based on positions more broadly. If you are over-budget on WR's then it has to come from somewhere. It forms the basis of a salary structure for a team and each team prefers a certain mix. Complicating matters is that certain free agents don't sign with you or teams draft guys you want, increasing the need for flexibility.

The emergence of Goodwin has provided some breathing at the WR position so I would say this team could really improve if the following needs can be met:
- An edge rusher
- Interior offensive line
- CB to start opposite Witherspoon
- RB

Available free agents:
DE - A. Clayborn, Ez. Ansah
C - M. Paradis (RFA), J. Sullivan, W. Richburg, T. Swanson
OG - A. Norwell, J. Pugh,
CB - T. Johnson, M. Butler, R. Melvin, K. Fuller
RB - Hyde, Bell, Dev. Lewis

Based on a brief scan here I think the 49ers should look long at hard at Adrian Clayborn if the Falcons are running up against cap issues. The defensive line is missing an edge rusher and full of youth, Clayborn provides experience and talent in a position of need. Perhaps the connection with Shanahan will help our case. I actually think the 49ers could address C and CB through free agency, DE a bonus, and use the draft on RB and G.

Originally posted by bzborow1:

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Build the trenches, inside-out, strong down the middle.

Buckner, Day, Foster, Tartt and Colbert.

Since we have the defense, move to the offense:

Jimmy, C, G's, Breida, HB and Juice.

Build the trenches, strong down the middle....basically a variation of Vince Lombardi...."build your lines first." As to the above, i would add Solomon to Buckner, Day, Foster, Tartt and Adrian. Also would keep AA for rotation in middle. Keep Mitchell. And remember we turned ove 37 of our 53 players last yr, ended up with 20 on IR, PUP or whatever, so first thing is to evaluate WTF we have on D, and then add to the guys we want to keep. We are just an ER away , plus a LB. I think we find 2, maybe even 3 guys that john has brot in to make a very nice D...but we need that ER.

On O, it is straight forward....OG, C , OG, and try as hard as we can to get C and 1 OG in FA and then high pick rd 1 or 2 OG. Then keep Garnett, and let Laken, FSCO, not Kilgore, and let them fight it out for rotation behind the two OGs and one C we pick up. Joe and Trenton are our OTs, and see if we can bring D. Williams as our backup OT....make it open competition.

Meantime, we have lots of talent on DL, esp if you factor in the guys we picked up along with our draft picks. Etc. So see is some of those 17 guys we didn't Schd can can actually play. remember we are looking for an ER primarily, and then need a more depth around those named above. When we get those 20 guys off IR, and on the field, it will be interesting to see what's we really have. I am hoping it is more then we think. Right now we have to have starter OG C OG ER. That would sure go a long way towards getting us healthy. with Day, I am curious what else we get out of Day. But right now i like buck, Solomon, Reuben, day, AA, Mitchell, dooms, etc with Reuben in middle and Adrian in back.

To be fair, Walsh's strategy worked because he hit on a lot of draft picks. :) Baalke also adopted the middle-out approach but he couldn't deliver the talent.

In reality, the decisions are more complicated because teams allocate budget based on positions more broadly. If you are over-budget on WR's then it has to come from somewhere. It forms the basis of a salary structure for a team and each team prefers a certain mix. Complicating matters is that certain free agents don't sign with you or teams draft guys you want, increasing the need for flexibility.

The emergence of Goodwin has provided some breathing at the WR position so I would say this team could really improve if the following needs can be met:
- An edge rusher
- Interior offensive line
- CB to start opposite Witherspoon
- RB

Available free agents:
DE - A. Clayborn, Ez. Ansah
C - M. Paradis (RFA), J. Sullivan, W. Richburg, T. Swanson
OG - A. Norwell, J. Pugh,
CB - T. Johnson, M. Butler, R. Melvin, K. Fuller
RB - Hyde, Bell, Dev. Lewis

Based on a brief scan here I think the 49ers should look long at hard at Adrian Clayborn if the Falcons are running up against cap issues. The defensive line is missing an edge rusher and full of youth, Clayborn provides experience and talent in a position of need. Perhaps the connection with Shanahan will help our case. I actually think the 49ers could address C and CB through free agency, DE a bonus, and use the draft on RB and G.

Great post

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/01/17/conference-championship-teams-built-vikings-eagels-patriots-jaguars-mmqb

Originally posted by FL9er:

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/01/17/conference-championship-teams-built-vikings-eagels-patriots-jaguars-mmqb

Good read

Originally posted by RTFirefly:

Originally posted by bzborow1:

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Build the trenches, inside-out, strong down the middle.

Buckner, Day, Foster, Tartt and Colbert.

Since we have the defense, move to the offense:

Jimmy, C, G's, Breida, HB and Juice.

Build the trenches, strong down the middle....basically a variation of Vince Lombardi...."build your lines first." As to the above, i would add Solomon to Buckner, Day, Foster, Tartt and Adrian. Also would keep AA for rotation in middle. Keep Mitchell. And remember we turned ove 37 of our 53 players last yr, ended up with 20 on IR, PUP or whatever, so first thing is to evaluate WTF we have on D, and then add to the guys we want to keep. We are just an ER away , plus a LB. I think we find 2, maybe even 3 guys that john has brot in to make a very nice D...but we need that ER.

On O, it is straight forward....OG, C , OG, and try as hard as we can to get C and 1 OG in FA and then high pick rd 1 or 2 OG. Then keep Garnett, and let Laken, FSCO, not Kilgore, and let them fight it out for rotation behind the two OGs and one C we pick up. Joe and Trenton are our OTs, and see if we can bring D. Williams as our backup OT....make it open competition.

Meantime, we have lots of talent on DL, esp if you factor in the guys we picked up along with our draft picks. Etc. So see is some of those 17 guys we didn't Schd can can actually play. remember we are looking for an ER primarily, and then need a more depth around those named above. When we get those 20 guys off IR, and on the field, it will be interesting to see what's we really have. I am hoping it is more then we think. Right now we have to have starter OG C OG ER. That would sure go a long way towards getting us healthy. with Day, I am curious what else we get out of Day. But right now i like buck, Solomon, Reuben, day, AA, Mitchell, dooms, etc with Reuben in middle and Adrian in back.

To be fair, Walsh's strategy worked because he hit on a lot of draft picks. :) Baalke also adopted the middle-out approach but he couldn't deliver the talent.

In reality, the decisions are more complicated because teams allocate budget based on positions more broadly. If you are over-budget on WR's then it has to come from somewhere. It forms the basis of a salary structure for a team and each team prefers a certain mix. Complicating matters is that certain free agents don't sign with you or teams draft guys you want, increasing the need for flexibility.

The emergence of Goodwin has provided some breathing at the WR position so I would say this team could really improve if the following needs can be met:
- An edge rusher
- Interior offensive line
- CB to start opposite Witherspoon
- RB

Available free agents:
DE - A. Clayborn, Ez. Ansah
C - M. Paradis (RFA), J. Sullivan, W. Richburg, T. Swanson
OG - A. Norwell, J. Pugh,
CB - T. Johnson, M. Butler, R. Melvin, K. Fuller
RB - Hyde, Bell, Dev. Lewis

Based on a brief scan here I think the 49ers should look long at hard at Adrian Clayborn if the Falcons are running up against cap issues. The defensive line is missing an edge rusher and full of youth, Clayborn provides experience and talent in a position of need. Perhaps the connection with Shanahan will help our case. I actually think the 49ers could address C and CB through free agency, DE a bonus, and use the draft on RB and G.

Great post

Clayborn is solid insurance and a solid base elephant IMO but hes not a nickel edge rusher. Thats when a day 1 rookie edge rusher comes in assuming we strike out on Lawrence/Ansah/Julius Peppers.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Build the trenches, inside-out, strong down the middle.

Buckner, Day, Foster, Tartt and Colbert.

Since we have the defense, move to the offense:

Jimmy, C, G's, Breida, HB and Juice.

Build the trenches, strong down the middle....basically a variation of Vince Lombardi...."build your lines first." As to the above, i would add Solomon to Buckner, Day, Foster, Tartt and Adrian. Also would keep AA for rotation in middle. Keep Mitchell. And remember we turned ove 37 of our 53 players last yr, ended up with 20 on IR, PUP or whatever, so first thing is to evaluate WTF we have on D, and then add to the guys we want to keep. We are just an ER away , plus a LB. I think we find 2, maybe even 3 guys that john has brot in to make a very nice D...but we need that ER.

On O, it is straight forward....OG, C , OG, and try as hard as we can to get C and 1 OG in FA and then high pick rd 1 or 2 OG. Then keep Garnett, and let Laken, FSCO, not Kilgore, and let them fight it out for rotation behind the two OGs and one C we pick up. Joe and Trenton are our OTs, and see if we can bring D. Williams as our backup OT....make it open competition.

Meantime, we have lots of talent on DL, esp if you factor in the guys we picked up along with our draft picks. Etc. So see is some of those 17 guys we didn't Schd can can actually play. remember we are looking for an ER primarily, and then need a more depth around those named above. When we get those 20 guys off IR, and on the field, it will be interesting to see what's we really have. I am hoping it is more then we think. Right now we have to have starter OG C OG ER. That would sure go a long way towards getting us healthy. with Day, I am curious what else we get out of Day. But right now i like buck, Solomon, Reuben, day, AA, Mitchell, dooms, etc with Reuben in middle and Adrian in back.

Men after my own heart really well said and I agree 100%.

We will have so much cap room even after Garoppolo is signed why not get a top guard signed? There are a bunch, young and old on the market. Maybe even the center as well. (Maybe even more so than guard!) Then you can draft a lineman or two middle/late rounds that may need a year or two, but are immediate depth and if they win outright who cares? It means we are a better football team.

I will argue just making sure we have a top o-line guarantees a top 16 offense - assuming nothing else!

After the o-line it should be all defense. Is there an edge rusher in FA that makes sense for our defense? I'm not sure and defer to you guys, but if there is, sign him. We could really sign JG, guard, center, edge rusher, and still be cap healthy. Never mind CB, WR, and other areas where we could add solid guys without breaking the bank.

Now in the draft we can simply worry about bpa and not think about one specific need, but be picky in a good way. I wouldn't mind them loading up on defense this draft simply because I think Garoppolo behind that sick o-line with a great defense will have us setup for a deep playoff run next year or two at the most.

Wrong question, it's going to be how good the offensive line becomes.

I think the biggest thing is stability, at least in the early stages of their development. Luckily our HC is an offensive guy so he doesn't have to worry about a new playbook everytime our oc gets fired.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Step 1. Look at what the Colts did with Andrew Luck.

Step 2. Look at what the Saints and Packers did on defense with Brees and Rodgers for most of their careers.

Step 3. Don't do that.

I'm not in the camp that believes that you NEED a legit #1 WR. I think a QB like Garoppolo with some quality targets can pick a defense apart given the time.

This cracked me up! I agree with your points as well as enjoy your comedic touch.

Shanahan's offense can scheme with less that all pro players but elite players on either side of the ball are always nice to have. I would go BPA after making sure you have basic needs covered. Since they need people in almost every aspect of the team...BPA, except for QB.

If they have choices--
LB
CB
C
OG
WR

--would be my ranking looking at team talent.