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Week 17 2017: Thoughts after rewatching the last three games...

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  • jcs
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 39,794
Originally posted by SteveYoung:
Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
Great analysis Marv as usual. And great to see you back.

The only thing I have is about Hyde. I really hope we can keep him somehow, and Shanny don't fall into the "our guy" kind of thing. I made this point in another thread: Breida as an every down back. He's a very good change-of-pace back (which is needed), but not a bell-cow (which is needed first). There's currently no better option than Hyde on the roster; he's our best, most complete back we have.

Was Hyde's stats where we'd like to see them? No! But teams played the 49ers vastly different when Hyde was in the game vis-à-vis when Breida was in the game. Hyde didn't face the nickel defenses that Breida faced. Breida wasn't constantly facing stacked boxes like Hyde was constantly facing (with a below average run-blocking O-line too). If he were his 190lbs frame simply wouldn't hold up, especially having to face NFC West D-lines. This is why our play-action game more effective with Hyde in the backfield than Breida. Plus, and perhaps more importantly, Hyde's pass blocking is glaringly more superior than Breida. Breida's production is more of a reflection of Shanny's play calling than anything.

If we can get him back at a discount it'll be a mistake to not resign him. If we let him walk, fine! But we had better have a plan of replacement because Breida isn't that kind of back. And if we go into the 2018 season as Breida as our primary back then that position will regress and our offense will become one-dimensional, IMHO.

I dis-agree about Breida facing stacked D. Breida wasn't a 3rd down back or a change of pace back. He saw as many base D looks as Hyde did.

And Breida won't be a #1 next year any more than Tevin Coleman was for Atl.

We will find a 200 carry back but it won't be Hyde.

+1

The guy who saw most of the 3rd down snaps this year was Hyde.
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Originally posted by SteveYoung:
I dis-agree about Breida facing stacked D. Breida wasn't a 3rd down back or a change of pace back. He saw as many base D looks as Hyde did.

And Breida won't be a #1 next year any more than Tevin Coleman was for Atl.

We will find a 200 carry back but it won't be Hyde.
I'm ok with that. So long as we have a replacement for Hyde I'm good. Just that Breida isn't that kind of back. He's not a bell-cow every-down back.
Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
Originally posted by SteveYoung:
I dis-agree about Breida facing stacked D. Breida wasn't a 3rd down back or a change of pace back. He saw as many base D looks as Hyde did.

And Breida won't be a #1 next year any more than Tevin Coleman was for Atl.

We will find a 200 carry back but it won't be Hyde.
I'm ok with that. So long as we have a replacement for Hyde I'm good. Just that Breida isn't that kind of back. He's not a bell-cow every-down back.

Joe Williams will get a shot to be that guy. Dunno how good he is or can be, but if Hyde leaves Joe will have a crack at it along with Breida and whomever they draft.

Hyde Averaged 3.9 yards per carry this year. That is replaceable production. Some of that is the line of course but its not like Hyde made a case this year that he was irreplaceable. How many passes did he drop that were right in his hands?
[ Edited by Marvin49 on Jan 2, 2018 at 11:44 AM ]
  • jcs
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Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
Originally posted by SteveYoung:
I dis-agree about Breida facing stacked D. Breida wasn't a 3rd down back or a change of pace back. He saw as many base D looks as Hyde did.

And Breida won't be a #1 next year any more than Tevin Coleman was for Atl.

We will find a 200 carry back but it won't be Hyde.
I'm ok with that. So long as we have a replacement for Hyde I'm good. Just that Breida isn't that kind of back. He's not a bell-cow every-down back.

Joe Williams will get a shot to be that guy. Dunno how good he is or can be, but if Hyde leaves Joe will have a crack at it along with Breida and whomever they draft.

Hyde Averaged 3.9 yards per carry this year. That is replaceable production. Some of that is the line of course but its not like Hyde made a case this year that he was irreplaceable. How many passes did he drop that were right in his hands?
How many blocks did he miss that got his QB killed too...
I actually had never seen that video. Thanks for sharing! Good stuff
  • Giedi
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  • Posts: 33,371
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
Originally posted by SteveYoung:
I dis-agree about Breida facing stacked D. Breida wasn't a 3rd down back or a change of pace back. He saw as many base D looks as Hyde did.

And Breida won't be a #1 next year any more than Tevin Coleman was for Atl.

We will find a 200 carry back but it won't be Hyde.
I'm ok with that. So long as we have a replacement for Hyde I'm good. Just that Breida isn't that kind of back. He's not a bell-cow every-down back.

Joe Williams will get a shot to be that guy. Dunno how good he is or can be, but if Hyde leaves Joe will have a crack at it along with Breida and whomever they draft.

Hyde Averaged 3.9 yards per carry this year. That is replaceable production. Some of that is the line of course but its not like Hyde made a case this year that he was irreplaceable. How many passes did he drop that were right in his hands?

Great review of the three games! I agree, Hyde isn't a fit, and if Joe Williams can beat him out - or if they *think* Joe can beat him out, he's gone. ShanaLynch will show Jimmy da Mohnaay, I'm pretty sure. I also agree about Marquis - I think he's a bit too small to be our number 1 receiver. Great to have you back before you leave again.
Originally posted by jcs:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
Originally posted by SteveYoung:
I dis-agree about Breida facing stacked D. Breida wasn't a 3rd down back or a change of pace back. He saw as many base D looks as Hyde did.

And Breida won't be a #1 next year any more than Tevin Coleman was for Atl.

We will find a 200 carry back but it won't be Hyde.
I'm ok with that. So long as we have a replacement for Hyde I'm good. Just that Breida isn't that kind of back. He's not a bell-cow every-down back.

Joe Williams will get a shot to be that guy. Dunno how good he is or can be, but if Hyde leaves Joe will have a crack at it along with Breida and whomever they draft.

Hyde Averaged 3.9 yards per carry this year. That is replaceable production. Some of that is the line of course but its not like Hyde made a case this year that he was irreplaceable. How many passes did he drop that were right in his hands?
How many blocks did he miss that got his QB killed too...
jcs, I think you're mixing Hyde with Breida on that. Blocking was one glaring difference between the two, and a real reason (that and his 190lbs frame) I don't think Breida is an every-down bell-cow back. Now, that just may be Williams. We don't know.

Marv, I actually hope it's Williams (though I'd like him to add about 10 lbs). And I hope to dear god he can block. Or maybe we can bring back Gore . For me, in Shanny's offense I'm not all that convinced that you need Zeek Elliot to be lethal, just a real ground threat that the defense has to commit another body in the box to account for that threat. Just look at how potent this offense turned out to be with a competent QB at the helm. Hyde, while not a "gamebreaker", consistently forces the defense to account for him just by his presence in the backfield because he's already proven he can be a real problem for the defense. Shanny rely heavily on play-action, and with Hyde in the backfield the play-action is way more convincing. You won't get that with Breida. With Hyde's blocking, running, what he forces the defense to do I'll take the occasional drops.

My main point is this: IMHO if Breida is our every-down back he will not be able to reproduce the production in 2018 as he did in 2017. Given the kind of runner Breida is it will be unrealistic to expect that.
Love it that you made it back Marvin49 I would absolutely love to get Sony Michel from Georgia to pair with Williams & Brieda. Would give us a very explosive back field that Kyle & Garoppolo could have a bunch of fun with next year
Originally posted by defenderDX:
I actually had never seen that video. Thanks for sharing! Good stuff

Me either. What a great breakdown!
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by defenderDX:
I actually had never seen that video. Thanks for sharing! Good stuff

Me either. What a great breakdown!

I know!
  • AZ9er
  • Veteran
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Thanks Marvin great posts all season long
Front loading the s**t out of Jimmy's contract makes a s**t ton of sense. They should do that.
Welcome back! Been looking for your thoughts every Monday!
  • jcs
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 39,794
Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
Originally posted by jcs:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
Originally posted by SteveYoung:
I dis-agree about Breida facing stacked D. Breida wasn't a 3rd down back or a change of pace back. He saw as many base D looks as Hyde did.

And Breida won't be a #1 next year any more than Tevin Coleman was for Atl.

We will find a 200 carry back but it won't be Hyde.
I'm ok with that. So long as we have a replacement for Hyde I'm good. Just that Breida isn't that kind of back. He's not a bell-cow every-down back.

Joe Williams will get a shot to be that guy. Dunno how good he is or can be, but if Hyde leaves Joe will have a crack at it along with Breida and whomever they draft.

Hyde Averaged 3.9 yards per carry this year. That is replaceable production. Some of that is the line of course but its not like Hyde made a case this year that he was irreplaceable. How many passes did he drop that were right in his hands?
How many blocks did he miss that got his QB killed too...
jcs, I think you're mixing Hyde with Breida on that. Blocking was one glaring difference between the two, and a real reason (that and his 190lbs frame) I don't think Breida is an every-down bell-cow back. Now, that just may be Williams. We don't know.

Marv, I actually hope it's Williams (though I'd like him to add about 10 lbs). And I hope to dear god he can block. Or maybe we can bring back Gore . For me, in Shanny's offense I'm not all that convinced that you need Zeek Elliot to be lethal, just a real ground threat that the defense has to commit another body in the box to account for that threat. Just look at how potent this offense turned out to be with a competent QB at the helm. Hyde, while not a "gamebreaker", consistently forces the defense to account for him just by his presence in the backfield because he's already proven he can be a real problem for the defense. Shanny rely heavily on play-action, and with Hyde in the backfield the play-action is way more convincing. You won't get that with Breida. With Hyde's blocking, running, what he forces the defense to do I'll take the occasional drops.

My main point is this: IMHO if Breida is our every-down back he will not be able to reproduce the production in 2018 as he did in 2017. Given the kind of runner Breida is it will be unrealistic to expect that.
Not mixing anyone up...Brieda was rarely used in pass protection.

Hyde on the other hand not only missed assignments pass blocking all season long but a few of the guys he did get his hands on were able to get around him as if he wasn't even there this season and laid some brutal hits on our QB's because of it.
  • Shifty
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 23,429
While I don't disagree with the long ball concerns, I do think that's where full in depth knowledge of Shanahan's entire scheme will pay off. Having a full offseason with the receivers and Shanahan, improved o-line (hopefully), Garcon back (hopefully another big time weapon added too) and guys like Taylor, Kittle and Goodwin mastering this offense will improve the long ball statistics.

Not trying to make excuses because it needs to get a lot better, but I definitely think it will improve significantly.
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