Which current 49ers fit in a 4-3 defense, which don't, and what will it look like

Originally posted by PhillyNiner:
This is completely irrational. Second year player with an injury = throw him away for nothing? It truly is a in instant gratification world now isn't it?

In march he becomes a 3rd year player drafted to help the pass rush with just 4.5 career sacks. Oh and he's the worst run defender of any Dlinemen on this team.

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
Agree to disagree.

I've been around football my whole life. And the one thing that I've learned is that the best 11 should always be on the field. That's where coaching comes into play. Your football reasons are sound. I was never disputing that. But I'm sorry, there's no way that AA should be coming off the bench, in any scheme. He might not be a 4-3 DE, but he defiantly can play 4-3 DT. He's just too powerful and too talented to be spelling anyone. He will demand a double-team when playing with the proper technique. I concede that he's more of a 3-4 end than 4-3 end. But that don't mean that he couldn't make the transition. And I cannot stress enough how much his injury has stunted his progress and production. IMHO fans are much too willing to give up on the guy, or, like yourself, too quick to relegate him to backup status without a real chance to show his stuff in the system.

Fair response. But I do have a question. You seem to be pretty high on him, saying he will command double-teams and is absolutely one of our best 11. Beyond his draft position, what makes you so sure? 2016 pretty much gets thrown out because of an injury, so we only have 375 healthy snaps to go off of, and from what I remember, they weren't super impressive...

It's kind of the opposite side of the coin from your stance. You don't think it's fair for people to call him a bust, while I don't think it's fair to say he's definitely a starting caliber player. This training camp and preseason will be his time to prove to the coaches that he is that kind of player.

AA has a grand total of 720 snaps for his entire career. 345 of those was with a ripped shoulder last year. The other 375 he was mostly used in pass rush situations as a rookie (not focused on run stopping) as he was being eased into the lineup. In short, we don't know s**t about AA yet.

Originally posted by NCommand:
AA has a grand total of 720 snaps for his entire career. 345 of those was with a ripped shoulder last year. The other 375 he was mostly used in pass rush situations as a rookie (not focused on run stopping) as he was being eased into the lineup. In short, we don't know s**t about AA yet.

Finally, a voice of reason.......and good knowledge!

Originally posted by NCommand:
AA has a grand total of 720 snaps for his entire career. 345 of those was with a ripped shoulder last year. The other 375 he was mostly used in pass rush situations as a rookie (not focused on run stopping) as he was being eased into the lineup. In short, we don't know s**t about AA yet.

While I agree that the injury makes it tough to tell about his ceiling and what he can do when full strength, there are other factors that you can look to to see the odds are more against him being an all-pro type than for. He had problems that weren't to do with his injury. Pad level, gap awareness, smoothness in hips - those things were not good in almost all of his 720 snaps. While his rookie year I'll give him that he was a rookie, he was also a mid-1st round rookie. So, that "wait and see" approach is shortened. You expect more production and readiness from a guy selected where he was. If not, he should've been a 2nd or 3rd round selection.

Buckner was only selected a few spots up from where AA was and looks MUCH more NFL ready in everything. While AA looks the part on measurables, he just seems to have this air of a Sheldon Richardson or Muhammed Wilkerson to him than a Marcel Dareus.

Originally posted by jcs:

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
Agree to disagree.

I've been around football my whole life. And the one thing that I've learned is that the best 11 should always be on the field. That's where coaching comes into play. Your football reasons are sound. I was never disputing that. But I'm sorry, there's no way that AA should be coming off the bench, in any scheme. He might not be a 4-3 DE, but he defiantly can play 4-3 DT. He's just too powerful and too talented to be spelling anyone. He will demand a double-team when playing with the proper technique. I concede that he's more of a 3-4 end than 4-3 end. But that don't mean that he couldn't make the transition. And I cannot stress enough how much his injury has stunted his progress and production. IMHO fans are much too willing to give up on the guy, or, like yourself, too quick to relegate him to backup status without a real chance to show his stuff in the system.

This is a big point. He rarely uses proper technique. He doesn't maintain his gap control and he doesn't set the edge very well. He doesn't locate the ball well and he tends to give up on plays. He's also not very productive. This is 49er Arik...ironically it is also Predraft Arik coming out of Oregon.

You do realize he was playing with an injury, right? It's kind of hard to get any push off needed to set any edge when your shoulder is basically coming out of socket. Plus the guy is only going into her 3 season. I think fans are really being criminally unfair with Armstead.

Originally posted by NCommand:
AA has a grand total of 720 snaps for his entire career. 345 of those was with a ripped shoulder last year. The other 375 he was mostly used in pass rush situations as a rookie (not focused on run stopping) as he was being eased into the lineup. In short, we don't know s**t about AA yet.

Every damn bit of this.

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:

Originally posted by NCommand:
AA has a grand total of 720 snaps for his entire career. 345 of those was with a ripped shoulder last year. The other 375 he was mostly used in pass rush situations as a rookie (not focused on run stopping) as he was being eased into the lineup. In short, we don't know s**t about AA yet.

Every damn bit of this.

he definitely still has a high ceiling, plenty of room for AA to develop into a force , he could be a solid, if not, dominant left defensive end in the 4-3

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:

You do realize he was playing with an injury, right? It's kind of hard to get any push off needed to set any edge when your shoulder is basically coming out of socket. Plus the guy is only going into her 3 season. I think fans are really being criminally unfair with Armstead.

I would think we are warranted to worry about the 15th overall pick if he has done absolutely nothing going into his 3rd year. That said,thr talent is there and if he can build on what was apparently a dominant camp he could be a nice bookend where all he needs to do is use his length to set the edge and get after the QB. No read and react. Just attack. I think that will be where AA succeeds.

I think his best position may be LDE.

LDE - AA / Blair
NT- Dial
RDT- Buckner
RDE - Lynch / Harold

That said, I fully expect us to draft and/or sign at least two edge rushers and a nose tackle.

Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Right now, speculation is that the best fits across the line until we add a fierce, highly athletic and talented RDE, is this:

LDE: Buckner/Dial

LDT: FA/ROOKIE

RDT: Armstead

RDE: Lynch

However... I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the team let Buckner try RDE in some cases, even despite his size. If they know he can beat a guy that others can't, I see them putting him in that spot.

This is just us playing coach but just because Defo can play at the DE spot doesn't necessarily mean he should play there because armstead will be a liability. I'd rather have jones out there at DE, he showed that he can disengage and is decent against the run. Defo is our most promising interior pass rusher, I'd keep him at the DT 3 tech. If AA can actually outplay Defo at the DT spot then I move Defo to the DE spot, I just don't see this happening.

Here's what John Lynch says about the twin towers:

Lynch believes that Armstead and Buckner will transition well from the 3-4 defense to the 4-3. "I think they fit very well," Lynch said Tuesday on 95.7 The Game. "And that's one thing I want to make sure because I really believe it. I think Trent Baalke did a great job of getting guys that really – yes, they were picked for one system, but I think they transition very well to our system. One thing that we've talked about, Kyle and I, from the start is – and it's often a buzz word but we really mean it – we want to play with great urgency, with great aggressiveness. One of the things is I'm excited to see those guys. They were very much in a read and react posture last year. I'm excited to cut them loose."

- See more at: http://www.49erswebzone.com/articles/103811-john-lynch-excited-about-49ers-offensive-defensive-lines/#sthash.zkinXFnS.dpuf

Originally posted by NCommand:

AA has a grand total of 720 snaps for his entire career. 345 of those was with a ripped shoulder last year. The other 375 he was mostly used in pass rush situations as a rookie (not focused on run stopping) as he was being eased into the lineup. In short, we don't know s**t about AA yet.

That is how Aldon Smith was used his rookie year. Why did we learn so much about Aldon's skills his rookie year and so little about AA his rookie year? Could it be there is less to learn from AA?

Originally posted by jonnydel:

While I agree that the injury makes it tough to tell about his ceiling and what he can do when full strength, there are other factors that you can look to to see the odds are more against him being an all-pro type than for. He had problems that weren't to do with his injury. Pad level, gap awareness, smoothness in hips - those things were not good in almost all of his 720 snaps. While his rookie year I'll give him that he was a rookie, he was also a mid-1st round rookie. So, that "wait and see" approach is shortened. You expect more production and readiness from a guy selected where he was. If not, he should've been a 2nd or 3rd round selection.

Buckner was only selected a few spots up from where AA was and looks MUCH more NFL ready in everything. While AA looks the part on measurables, he just seems to have this air of a Sheldon Richardson or Muhammed Wilkerson to him than a Marcel Dareus.

Sure. Agreed. Buckner came in way more polished than AA...which is why he only had 300 snaps his rookie year...slowly building him up and working him in.

Interesting comments from Lynch...turn them loose huh?

Originally posted by Draftology:

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
Agree to disagree.

I've been around football my whole life. And the one thing that I've learned is that the best 11 should always be on the field. That's where coaching comes into play. Your football reasons are sound. I was never disputing that. But I'm sorry, there's no way that AA should be coming off the bench, in any scheme. He might not be a 4-3 DE, but he defiantly can play 4-3 DT. He's just too powerful and too talented to be spelling anyone. He will demand a double-team when playing with the proper technique. I concede that he's more of a 3-4 end than 4-3 end. But that don't mean that he couldn't make the transition. And I cannot stress enough how much his injury has stunted his progress and production. IMHO fans are much too willing to give up on the guy, or, like yourself, too quick to relegate him to backup status without a real chance to show his stuff in the system.

Fair response. But I do have a question. You seem to be pretty high on him, saying he will command double-teams and is absolutely one of our best 11. Beyond his draft position, what makes you so sure? 2016 pretty much gets thrown out because of an injury, so we only have 375 healthy snaps to go off of, and from what I remember, they weren't super impressive...

It's kind of the opposite side of the coin from your stance. You don't think it's fair for people to call him a bust, while I don't think it's fair to say he's definitely a starting caliber player. This training camp and preseason will be his time to prove to the coaches that he is that kind of player.

Because that guy was dominant in college, and from what I saw he has all the tools and talent to be dominant in the NFL. And yes, I give extra benefit of the doubt for 1st rounders until they have duly shown otherwise, especially when their progression and production is stunted by injury.

Now I'm sure you disagree with that, and that's fine. But I refuse to give up on a player who was hurt his one season, and playing hurt the next. Nor will I knock him, for example, for not being good in the run game, when most of his snaps he wasn't asked to set an edge (probably because the coaches knew his shoulder trashed). Now, does he need to fix his technique? Yup! I won't deny that. But really, just how much can a player work on his flaws if he's not even able to work at all ot is limited, or when he is working some of his primary tools are defective. (After all, in order or him to work on his flaws he has to do so during padded, physical practices, not just in film study. And given his injury just how much do you think coaches had him wearing the black jersey in practice?) How much push can you get when your shoulder is barely staying in place? How good can your technique be when your shoulder is barely staying in it's socket? How long in the game do you think it took for opposing, veteran OT's and OG's to figure out he could barely lift his arms above his shoulders? Hell yeah you're gonna be out of position and get pushed around a bit. He's going up against 300+ lbs world class athletes, who likely knows he's playing injured, basically one armed - and even then he showed me flashes of dominance. But under those circumstances how much productivity can we realistically expect for that player?

I'm sorry, but I refuse to label this guy a backup. There's simply not enough good time on the field for me to start that talk. So in my mind, until he shows otherwise while fully healthy, he's among the starting 11, in any scheme.

Originally posted by ronniefreakinlott42:

That is how Aldon Smith was used his rookie year. Why did we learn so much about Aldon's skills his rookie year and so little about AA his rookie year? Could it be there is less to learn from AA?

Good question. WILL is the premier pass rush pin-your-ears back position and that's how Fangio used him...but mostly on obvious passing situations...and off Justin Smith's double team specials. This singled Aldon up to just play...do what he does.

AA was used a bit like that too but on the strong side and in the 3-4, this still means he's facing 2. And like Lynch said above, last year, both he and Buckner were in, "...read and react posture last year."