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Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
If it's really not you, then you're emotions have you falling into the lemmings group with gushing over the current SB winner and how we can't keep up.. when in reality the 49ers have been at the top longer than most teams and it's the other teams trying to keep up with the 49ers
Originally posted by Heroism:
Is the sky falling or am I simply pointing out the obvious? I'd love to hear a real football counter argument and not a reply of sweet nothings with hope and wishful thinking.
You're can try to downplay those games, but those were the worst ass kickings the 49ers have experienced under Kyle Shanahan. In the 9 seasons that Kyle Shanahan has been the head coach of the 49ers, no team has beat the s**t out of the 49ers worse than Seattle in that divisional round.
MacDonald designed his scheme and built his team to beat Shanahan and successfully did so better than anyone has. This goes so many layers deep, too. It's beyond the personnel; it's how Seattle defends motions and hides their coverages; it's how Macdonald takes Shanahan's pass pro rules and breaks them; etc.
I think these are very valid reasons for concern if you're a 49ers' fan.
Originally posted by Heroism:
Originally posted by DRCHOWDER:
This is the first time I've seen you two go at it lol....
You must have missed the BA thread.
Originally posted by RickyRoma:💯 Much more eloquently said than myself
Originally posted by Heroism:
Is the sky falling or am I simply pointing out the obvious? I'd love to hear a real football counter argument and not a reply of sweet nothings with hope and wishful thinking.
You're can try to downplay those games, but those were the worst ass kickings the 49ers have experienced under Kyle Shanahan. In the 9 seasons that Kyle Shanahan has been the head coach of the 49ers, no team has beat the s**t out of the 49ers worse than Seattle in that divisional round.
MacDonald designed his scheme and built his team to beat Shanahan and successfully did so better than anyone has. This goes so many layers deep, too. It's beyond the personnel; it's how Seattle defends motions and hides their coverages; it's how Macdonald takes Shanahan's pass pro rules and breaks them; etc.
I think these are very valid reasons for concern if you're a 49ers' fan.
I respect your overall opinion on these forums but I think you are forgetting something incredibly important when it comes to sports....it's what I call hype and momentum. I can do research on this, and lay out probably hundreds of examples in every sport where one team gets destroyed by another, and it's not even remotely close to a difference in talent, but that of momentum, hype, adrenalin, etc. etc. There are teams/home field advantages that tilt the game far more than others, and playing in Seattle, at night when the fans are most rowdy and the Hawks defense can get revved up, it takes on a different life of its own. An avalanche can over roll a team in a heartbeat.
I think most people understood the challenge going into Seattle in the divisional round game and coming away with a victory. Given all the disadvantages the 49ers had going into that game, losing player after player (especially a heartbeat guy like Kittle the previous week), the dam will eventually burst. The bounces had to go the Niners way against Seattle....but when you start with an opening kickoff returned for a TD, I knew that was game over from a psychological standpoint. And little can be done by having a great coaching staff to stem the tide.
Go ask any Niner fan who watched the 1986 playoff game against the Giants at the Meadowlands.....0-0 in the first quarter, Jerry Rice takes a quick slant I believe from Montana and broke free. It was an automatic TD. Niners up 7-0. Jerry Rice did something that you almost never see any NFL player do.....as he was running with the football....he simply fumbled it. He wasn't touched....he was doing what he did a hundred plus times in his career....breaking away from the pack to score a TD. That day as he was running clear with the football, he literally fumbled it away on his own into the end zone. Giants recovered. Final score was 49-3. That score was clearly not indicative of the talent, but when something as deflating as that happens, a funny thing can happen to the mind knowing it was an uphill battle in the first place. That 1986 team had just reloaded to shape the back/back SB teams a few years later....right in the middle of their dynasty years. You'd really have to not understand how sports can work if you really think those Giants were THAT much better than SF....especially when they played earlier that year and SF lost by 4 points. Those Giants/49ers teams make the current Seahawks/49ers teams look like little b***hes.
Go look at the Sea/SF matchups from a dozen plus years ago.....somewhat similar to last year. Seattle had a better team than SF, but look at what happened with games in Seattle - Sunday Night in 2012, the Niners got rolled 42-13. The following year in Seattle it was 29-3. Those games were not indicative of the talent difference - no way - Seattle rode a wave of momentum/hype/adrenalin to simply overwhelm SF. I knew those games were over before they really got underway. Seattle is a place where that momentum can carry a team further than any other place in the NFL, especially if you build up a good defensive front. Arrowhead stadium in the 90's when the Chiefs had Derrick Thomas and Neil Smith was a nightmare place. Old Mile High in Denver was another.
Yes Seattle had the better talent...especially with all the missing players from SF, but I think you're getting carried away here....this ain't the 1976 Steel Curtain going up against the expansion Bucs of that same year. I certainly am not dismissing Seattles defense, as they could very well be the best, but I'd like to see at least a fair fight with both teams at equal strength before I start declaring the Seahawks the best thing since sliced bread. If I'm wrong, you can clearly call me out and I'll admit error.
Originally posted by RickyRoma:
Originally posted by Heroism:
Is the sky falling or am I simply pointing out the obvious? I'd love to hear a real football counter argument and not a reply of sweet nothings with hope and wishful thinking.
You're can try to downplay those games, but those were the worst ass kickings the 49ers have experienced under Kyle Shanahan. In the 9 seasons that Kyle Shanahan has been the head coach of the 49ers, no team has beat the s**t out of the 49ers worse than Seattle in that divisional round.
MacDonald designed his scheme and built his team to beat Shanahan and successfully did so better than anyone has. This goes so many layers deep, too. It's beyond the personnel; it's how Seattle defends motions and hides their coverages; it's how Macdonald takes Shanahan's pass pro rules and breaks them; etc.
I think these are very valid reasons for concern if you're a 49ers' fan.
I respect your overall opinion on these forums but I think you are forgetting something incredibly important when it comes to sports....it's what I call hype and momentum. I can do research on this, and lay out probably hundreds of examples in every sport where one team gets destroyed by another, and it's not even remotely close to a difference in talent, but that of momentum, hype, adrenalin, etc. etc. There are teams/home field advantages that tilt the game far more than others, and playing in Seattle, at night when the fans are most rowdy and the Hawks defense can get revved up, it takes on a different life of its own. An avalanche can over roll a team in a heartbeat.
I think most people understood the challenge going into Seattle in the divisional round game and coming away with a victory. Given all the disadvantages the 49ers had going into that game, losing player after player (especially a heartbeat guy like Kittle the previous week), the dam will eventually burst. The bounces had to go the Niners way against Seattle....but when you start with an opening kickoff returned for a TD, I knew that was game over from a psychological standpoint. And little can be done by having a great coaching staff to stem the tide.
Go ask any Niner fan who watched the 1986 playoff game against the Giants at the Meadowlands.....0-0 in the first quarter, Jerry Rice takes a quick slant I believe from Montana and broke free. It was an automatic TD. Niners up 7-0. Jerry Rice did something that you almost never see any NFL player do.....as he was running with the football....he simply fumbled it. He wasn't touched....he was doing what he did a hundred plus times in his career....breaking away from the pack to score a TD. That day as he was running clear with the football, he literally fumbled it away on his own into the end zone. Giants recovered. Final score was 49-3. That score was clearly not indicative of the talent, but when something as deflating as that happens, a funny thing can happen to the mind knowing it was an uphill battle in the first place. That 1986 team had just reloaded to shape the back/back SB teams a few years later....right in the middle of their dynasty years. You'd really have to not understand how sports can work if you really think those Giants were THAT much better than SF....especially when they played earlier that year and SF lost by 4 points. Those Giants/49ers teams make the current Seahawks/49ers teams look like little b***hes.
Go look at the Sea/SF matchups from a dozen plus years ago.....somewhat similar to last year. Seattle had a better team than SF, but look at what happened with games in Seattle - Sunday Night in 2012, the Niners got rolled 42-13. The following year in Seattle it was 29-3. Those games were not indicative of the talent difference - no way - Seattle rode a wave of momentum/hype/adrenalin to simply overwhelm SF. I knew those games were over before they really got underway. Seattle is a place where that momentum can carry a team further than any other place in the NFL, especially if you build up a good defensive front. Arrowhead stadium in the 90's when the Chiefs had Derrick Thomas and Neil Smith was a nightmare place. Old Mile High in Denver was another.
Yes Seattle had the better talent...especially with all the missing players from SF, but I think you're getting carried away here....this ain't the 1976 Steel Curtain going up against the expansion Bucs of that same year. I certainly am not dismissing Seattles defense, as they could very well be the best, but I'd like to see at least a fair fight with both teams at equal strength before I start declaring the Seahawks the best thing since sliced bread. If I'm wrong, you can clearly call me out and I'll admit error.
Originally posted by Heroism:
Originally posted by DRCHOWDER:
This is the first time I've seen you two go at it lol....
You must have missed the BA thread.
Originally posted by Cisco0623:
Originally posted by Heroism:
Originally posted by DRCHOWDER:
This is the first time I've seen you two go at it lol....
You must have missed the BA thread.
He isn't lying, you and Hoov are usually awesome and chill lol All in good fun though. I agree with your thinking more in this case. I don't see how running out mostly the same players, only a year older...why we should expect different results. Especially o-line. Same for the secondary as another good poster, 9ers4eva points out.
We have a lot of holes to fill. I assume they will draft a pass rusher opposite Bosa. So that leaves us 5 picks to address other areas. Maybe they can trade around and accumulate some more picks. If we roll out the same o-line and safeties it's going to be bumpy.
Originally posted by Cisco0623:
He isn't lying, you and Hoov are usually awesome and chill lol All in good fun though. I agree with your thinking more in this case. I don't see how running out mostly the same players, only a year older...why we should expect different results. Especially o-line. Same for the secondary as another good poster, 9ers4eva points out.
We have a lot of holes to fill. I assume they will draft a pass rusher opposite Bosa. So that leaves us 5 picks to address other areas. Maybe they can trade around and accumulate some more picks. If we roll out the same o-line and safeties it's going to be bumpy.
Originally posted by Chance:
Originally posted by Cisco0623:
Originally posted by Heroism:
Originally posted by DRCHOWDER:
This is the first time I've seen you two go at it lol....
You must have missed the BA thread.
He isn't lying, you and Hoov are usually awesome and chill lol All in good fun though. I agree with your thinking more in this case. I don't see how running out mostly the same players, only a year older...why we should expect different results. Especially o-line. Same for the secondary as another good poster, 9ers4eva points out.
We have a lot of holes to fill. I assume they will draft a pass rusher opposite Bosa. So that leaves us 5 picks to address other areas. Maybe they can trade around and accumulate some more picks. If we roll out the same o-line and safeties it's going to be bumpy.
I mean is it the same team we're rolling out there? Did we forget how much injuries decimated us all over last year, still managing to be one of the better teams out there. I just have a hard time looking at this offseason so far and seeing anything but a miracle in that we were able to address some of our biggest needs with limited resources. A healthy 49ers team playing a healthy Seahawks team is not really so different.
Now we have the draft and whatever other help we bring in through FA. We are far from perfect, but should be among the best teams once again. That's all you can ask for year in year out.
i posit this question to armchair GMs: what exactly would you have done differently to address our manifold needs with a limited budget and draft capital this year?
From where I'm standing WR and interior pass rush were addressed in big ways. I'd argue interior pass rush was our biggest need and when combined with a healthy Bosa, should create the biggest return for our defensive turnaround.
Picking up Evans for a relative bargain gives Brock a HOF target, sorely needed and the type of guy who can break that vaunted Seattle shell.
Now we have some flexibility in the draft and still more needs to be met, so I guess we should see how it plays out, then see how the most season and season play out. It's not out of the ordinary for an oline to stink one year, and then gel the next with even one change, or guys getting healthy or experiencing improvement. I just don't see the point in freaking out right now. In fact, one should be encouraged we've addressed some huge needs already.
This may be the last hurrah before a rebuild, so why not enjoy the ride?
Originally posted by VinculumJuris:
I don't subscribe to this view because it falls short of explaining the beating we took at home against a division rival with the number 1 seed on the line. You're telling me their guys showed up more hyped for that game than our guys, yet that mindset difference won't carry on into future matchups?
It also just feels like a cop out to point to something so amorphous as the primary difference. Sure, momentum matters, but I think it can be (and is) simultaneously true that they have the advantage in talent, age, and scheme (at least on the defensive side of the ball). To disregard those advantages and attribute the beatings to momentum seems awfully optimistic, and I don't share that view.
I guess we'll find out because we get to play them twice a year at least. I expect the beatings to continue for a couple seasons but will gladly own it if we do hang with them.
Edit: I acknowledge that injuries played a major role as well and also have a lot of faith in Shanny (not so much Lynch) to keep us competitive with the broader league. Many factors to consider here.
Originally posted by Cisco0623:
Originally posted by Chance:
Originally posted by Cisco0623:
Originally posted by Heroism:
Originally posted by DRCHOWDER:
This is the first time I've seen you two go at it lol....
You must have missed the BA thread.
He isn't lying, you and Hoov are usually awesome and chill lol All in good fun though. I agree with your thinking more in this case. I don't see how running out mostly the same players, only a year older...why we should expect different results. Especially o-line. Same for the secondary as another good poster, 9ers4eva points out.
We have a lot of holes to fill. I assume they will draft a pass rusher opposite Bosa. So that leaves us 5 picks to address other areas. Maybe they can trade around and accumulate some more picks. If we roll out the same o-line and safeties it's going to be bumpy.
I mean is it the same team we're rolling out there? Did we forget how much injuries decimated us all over last year, still managing to be one of the better teams out there. I just have a hard time looking at this offseason so far and seeing anything but a miracle in that we were able to address some of our biggest needs with limited resources. A healthy 49ers team playing a healthy Seahawks team is not really so different.
Now we have the draft and whatever other help we bring in through FA. We are far from perfect, but should be among the best teams once again. That's all you can ask for year in year out.
i posit this question to armchair GMs: what exactly would you have done differently to address our manifold needs with a limited budget and draft capital this year?
From where I'm standing WR and interior pass rush were addressed in big ways. I'd argue interior pass rush was our biggest need and when combined with a healthy Bosa, should create the biggest return for our defensive turnaround.
Picking up Evans for a relative bargain gives Brock a HOF target, sorely needed and the type of guy who can break that vaunted Seattle shell.
Now we have some flexibility in the draft and still more needs to be met, so I guess we should see how it plays out, then see how the most season and season play out. It's not out of the ordinary for an oline to stink one year, and then gel the next with even one change, or guys getting healthy or experiencing improvement. I just don't see the point in freaking out right now. In fact, one should be encouraged we've addressed some huge needs already.
This may be the last hurrah before a rebuild, so why not enjoy the ride?
I think they have done very well with this FA. I am not big on overspending in FA, and they always use it to try and fill obvious needs without going bonkers. I believe you maintain a good roster via solid drafting.
My gripe is my usual, the o-line appears to the same or worse depending on what happens with TW and LG. It doesn't matter how open the WR or TE is when a defender is in Purdy's face. (Remember the SB? Folks believe this is why BA lost his damn mind)
Those last two Seattle games were a beating and beating is putting it lightly tbh. The interior was obliterated. I really do not expect different results if they don't upgrade the line. They have not really planned for the o-line at all over the years. It's always patchwork. I am curious what they do in the draft, but I am not holding my breath.
I like the trade for Osa. He is a great addition. I like West and Collins to rotate with him, but we should probably draft another body for the middle as well. We for sure need an edge opposite Bosa. I also don't assume Bosa, Williams, etc will just be their usual selves after serious injuries. Bodies don't get better with age and injury etc..
The secondary is pretty suspect. Lenoir was ok. Green was pretty bad at times, Stout flashed but also made a lot of mistakes as a rookie. Our safeties imo are pretty bad. My hope here is Morris can turn that unit around, but who knows? I think safety needs better talent regardless.
I am not freaking out. I just see myself as being realistic. Why should this last hurrah have a different result, (especially the trenches)? This is my take as of today btw, it's always been what they do in the draft that matters.
Originally posted by 49ers808:It's opposite of being at the bottom
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
If it's really not you, then you're emotions have you falling into the lemmings group with gushing over the current SB winner and how we can't keep up.. when in reality the 49ers have been at the top longer than most teams and it's the other teams trying to keep up with the 49ers
What is your definition of being "at the top?"
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Originally posted by Heroism:If it's really not you, then you're emotions have you falling into the lemmings group with gushing over the current SB winner and how we can't keep up.. when in reality the 49ers have been at the top longer than most teams and it's the other teams trying to keep up with the 49ers
Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
You are fixated on the rams and Seahawks recent drafts that yielded immediate, big impacts . You are also hyper focused on those last 2 games with the Seahawks . And that's understandable. It's also no different than last offseason when you were fretting that teams like the lions , eagles, packers etc were going to run roughshod over the Niners and everyone else with their revolutionized run games . How'd that work out ? I'm just saying you are operating off a little bit off of emotion here imo . , but we shall see
Huh? What revolutionized run game? I don't think I even posted much during last offseason.
I think you've mixed me up with someone else.
Also, no counter argument again.
Originally posted by Koldo:
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Originally posted by Heroism:If it's really not you, then you're emotions have you falling into the lemmings group with gushing over the current SB winner and how we can't keep up.. when in reality the 49ers have been at the top longer than most teams and it's the other teams trying to keep up with the 49ers
Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
You are fixated on the rams and Seahawks recent drafts that yielded immediate, big impacts . You are also hyper focused on those last 2 games with the Seahawks . And that's understandable. It's also no different than last offseason when you were fretting that teams like the lions , eagles, packers etc were going to run roughshod over the Niners and everyone else with their revolutionized run games . How'd that work out ? I'm just saying you are operating off a little bit off of emotion here imo . , but we shall see
Huh? What revolutionized run game? I don't think I even posted much during last offseason.
I think you've mixed me up with someone else.
Also, no counter argument again.
Love those moral championships, they're far better than the actual ones.
Originally posted by RickyRoma:
First, it was nowhere near the beating that happened in Seattle, which is a major crux of my point. As I said, the Niners needed the ball to bounce their way, and when they give up a truly demoralizing opening KOR for a major, that's about as bad a start as one can have given the situation. Playing IN Seattle, when the Hawks have a strong defensive front, is a major advantage as I've explained. Second, I didn't say it was the 'only' reason, but that hype/adrenalin is a real factor....and clearly it shows when you look at games played in environments that really are major home field advantages.
