Why didn't we counter against Giants defense (Belichick) better?

Originally posted by Niners816:
Another thing that made the Giant a tough matchup was their style of offense. The were a big TOP offense that milked the clock and really pounded the ball. When they played us, they tried to shorten the game and limit our offense touches. It was a fun rivalry and tough matchups trying to move the ball against that defense. To this day, I still don't think I've seen a harder hitting game then the 1990 NFC title game.

Agree.....that game was the bloodbath game of the Super Bowl era, IMO.

Originally posted by 9moon:
Walsh and Jones were really never together.. together as in, Jones was only an under study .. the TEs under Walsh were JOHN FRANK, RON HELLER and JAMIE WILLIAMS.. Brent Jones was a special team player only and only got the starting job when John Frank retired after Super Bowl 23 (vs the Bengals) because he wanted to be a DOCTOR..

Jones became a starter under Casanova Seifert !!!

LOL @ Casanova Seifert!

If I ever went the hair implant route, I'd have to go visit John Frank!!

Walsh is a lot better than belli. He transformed offenses permanently and belli had the sickest defenders on the Giants of the 80s with the Bears. Belli also struggled with the Browns and wasn't great towards the beginning with New England until Brady. It's mainly about talent. But belli is a great coach, Walsh can do more with less talent j

Originally posted by RishikeshA:
Belichick picks the right system and players that fit that system year after year. He is light years ahead of other NFL coaches. As for the rivalry with the Giants, it was a heavyweight brawl, we won some and lost some.

This

Originally posted by JTsBiggestFan:

Originally posted by Niners816:
Another thing that made the Giant a tough matchup was their style of offense. The were a big TOP offense that milked the clock and really pounded the ball. When they played us, they tried to shorten the game and limit our offense touches. It was a fun rivalry and tough matchups trying to move the ball against that defense. To this day, I still don't think I've seen a harder hitting game then the 1990 NFC title game.

Agree.....that game was the bloodbath game of the Super Bowl era, IMO.

IMO - those games were the SuperBowls

Its continually boggles my mind thinking about Belichick successfully calling defense against Bill Walsh's WCO at its height of success and now 30 years later dude is still at the top of his game as an NFL head coach.

Originally posted by elguapo:

Walsh is a lot better than belli. He transformed offenses permanently and belli had the sickest defenders on the Giants of the 80s with the Bears. Belli also struggled with the Browns and wasn't great towards the beginning with New England until Brady. It's mainly about talent. But belli is a great coach, Walsh can do more with less talent j

Belichick made it to the playoffs with the Browns. That alone should qualify him for the HOF. He assembled a ridiculously talented coaching staff and front office.


A lot of what he did while in Cleveland helped set up the Ravens for their 1st SB.



The way I see it, Halas, Brown, Lombardi, Landry, Shula, Noll, Walsh and Belichick are the all time NFL coaching greats, rank them however you wish.

Originally posted by valrod33:
Belichek>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Walsh

obviously.

Originally posted by JTsBiggestFan:

Originally posted by 9moon:

Walsh and Jones were really never together.. together as in, Jones was only an under study .. the TEs under Walsh were JOHN FRANK, RON HELLER and JAMIE WILLIAMS.. Brent Jones was a special team player only and only got the starting job when John Frank retired after Super Bowl 23 (vs the Bengals) because he wanted to be a DOCTOR..

Jones became a starter under Casanova Seifert !!!

LOL @ Casanova Seifert!

If I ever went the hair implant route, I'd have to go visit John Frank!!

John Frank became Ian Ziering and went on to star in 90210

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Its continually boggles my mind thinking about Belichick successfully calling defense against Bill Walsh's WCO at its height of success and now 30 years later dude is still at the top of his game as an NFL head coach.

Just for the hell of it I ran Walsh's yardage numbers against the Giants (Belichek was there for the entire time). Walsh offense's averaged 362.7 yards per game, 234.0 passing yards per game and 128.7 rush yards per game. In the 10 games he faced them he had over 400 yards 4 times.

These numbers includes the debacle that was the 1986 season playoff game (I feel that most of this narrative of them owning the WCO is based on this game, they murdered us). If you remove that game Walsh's averages vs the Giants was 382.6 yards, 242.8 pass and 139.8 rush.

Now post Walsh vs Belichek led Giants was different. It was 287 yards per game, 212.7 pass and 74.3 rush.

Now the 49ers running a WCO vs a defense that had Belichek attached to it had the following number:

362.9 yards per game
239.6 pass yards
123.1 rush yards

This was based on 13 games with the Giants, 1 game with the Browns and 1 game with the Jets.

Originally posted by ChazBoner:

Originally posted by valrod33:
Belichek>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Walsh

obviously.

NOT so fast my friend...

As great as Bill is, he can't find offensive talent years after years as well as Bill was able to.. Bill found Joe, traded for Steve, and continue to win then, Bill would could have never have won all those Super Bowls w/o Brady or win them with Drew as his QB..

Bill woulda been fired and long gone had the JETS LB never injured Drew.. Brady woulda been bouncing around as a backup up to this point.

So, even if Bill has more SB win than Bill, he could never build a team from ground zero the way Bill can..

.. and deep down, Bill became a great coach because of trying to figure out how to beat Bill..

Originally posted by LasVegasWally:

Originally posted by JTsBiggestFan:

Originally posted by Niners816:

Another thing that made the Giant a tough matchup was their style of offense. The were a big TOP offense that milked the clock and really pounded the ball. When they played us, they tried to shorten the game and limit our offense touches. It was a fun rivalry and tough matchups trying to move the ball against that defense. To this day, I still don't think I've seen a harder hitting game then the 1990 NFC title game.

Agree.....that game was the bloodbath game of the Super Bowl era, IMO.

IMO - those games were the SuperBowls

I was really young back in those days, and really never thought to go back and research offensive and defensive strategies. Quick story. Until two years ago I worked as a Drug Treatment Specialist at the Federal Prison in Mississippi. Got to know and talk with Mark Ingram, Sr. We talked about those classic 49ers/Giants game. He told me the 1990 MNF game (7-3 game) was full of hitting. Said he was deep on the bench and heard Lott knock the block out of someone. Fast forward. He told me they wouldn't have won SB25 if Phil Simms would have started. Surprised the heck out of me. Said Phil played way too safe, and they had to take shots against Buffalo. Dude had a ton of LT stories by the way.

Originally posted by 9moon:
NOT so fast my friend...

As great as Bill is, he can't find offensive talent years after years as well as Bill was able to.. Bill found Joe, traded for Steve, and continue to win then, Bill would could have never have won all those Super Bowls w/o Brady or win them with Drew as his QB..

Bill woulda been fired and long gone had the JETS LB never injured Drew.. Brady woulda been bouncing around as a backup up to this point.

So, even if Bill has more SB win than Bill, he could never build a team from ground zero the way Bill can..

.. and deep down, Bill became a great coach because of trying to figure out how to beat Bill..

There has been no greater QB coach than Bill Walsh and yeah, Belichick has sucked badly at drafting WRs, over a decade's worth of repeat failures, he has pretty much given up on drafting them, nor does he really have to at this point with the offensive system they run, just insert a bunch of random slot receivers, have a big TE to throw to and you're good to go.

Bill would could have never have won all those Super Bowls w/o Brady or win them with Drew as his QB..

So you think Walsh would have won the same amount of SB's with Steve DeBerg as his QB?

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by 9moon:

NOT so fast my friend...

As great as Bill is, he can't find offensive talent years after years as well as Bill was able to.. Bill found Joe, traded for Steve, and continue to win then, Bill would could have never have won all those Super Bowls w/o Brady or win them with Drew as his QB..

Bill woulda been fired and long gone had the JETS LB never injured Drew.. Brady woulda been bouncing around as a backup up to this point.

So, even if Bill has more SB win than Bill, he could never build a team from ground zero the way Bill can..

.. and deep down, Bill became a great coach because of trying to figure out how to beat Bill..

There has been no greater QB coach than Bill Walsh and yeah, Belichick has sucked badly at drafting WRs, over a decade's worth of repeat failures, he has pretty much given up on drafting them, nor does he really have to at this point with the offensive system they run, just insert a bunch of random slot receivers, have a big TE to throw to and you're good to go.

Bill would could have never have won all those Super Bowls w/o Brady or win them with Drew as his QB..

So you think Walsh would have won the same amount of SB's with Steve DeBerg as his QB?

IMO, belichick is doing what Walsh woulda done had he coached in the NFL
Longer than just 10 years. I think that had Walsh taken the month off after
SB23 he woulda have coached at least 5 or more years. If this had been the case,
I think we have at least one more title if not 2.

I give the hoodie a ton of credit for being a total football savant and have almost an amoeba like approach to planing. However, I just think the era that Walsh competed in was a higher level of league. That was especially the case at the top of the league. Hell, a ton of experts see the '85 bears as the best ever (personally I don not) yet in their era they were a one off champion.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by 9moon:
NOT so fast my friend...

As great as Bill is, he can't find offensive talent years after years as well as Bill was able to.. Bill found Joe, traded for Steve, and continue to win then, Bill would could have never have won all those Super Bowls w/o Brady or win them with Drew as his QB..

Bill woulda been fired and long gone had the JETS LB never injured Drew.. Brady woulda been bouncing around as a backup up to this point.

So, even if Bill has more SB win than Bill, he could never build a team from ground zero the way Bill can..

.. and deep down, Bill became a great coach because of trying to figure out how to beat Bill..

There has been no greater QB coach than Bill Walsh and yeah, Belichick has sucked badly at drafting WRs, over a decade's worth of repeat failures, he has pretty much given up on drafting them, nor does he really have to at this point with the offensive system they run, just insert a bunch of random slot receivers, have a big TE to throw to and you're good to go.

Bill would could have never have won all those Super Bowls w/o Brady or win them with Drew as his QB..

So you think Walsh would have won the same amount of SB's with Steve DeBerg as his QB?

JUST WHEN I THOUGHT you were beginning to understand, then you pull a STEVE DEBERG crap...

ALL I'm saying is that BILL woulda won with both Joe and Steve... which is the obvious.. but Bill would have never won a SUPER BOWL with DREW !!!!