Niners hire Jim O'Neil as DC

Well, if it leaves the middle 1/3 of the field wide open on passing downs, we'll know it is the mangini scheme.. That would be a very unwelcome surprise. We should remember tho, this team is going to be way more talented than last yrs. Just too many great acquisitions, guys coming off IR, and so on. This team is way more talented than last ....pretty much across the board, QB being the only somewhat similar situation...and there, I think Blaine has had a good half season under his belt to become the legit best option at QB....but who knows?

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Jcool:

Alex Marvez ‏@alexmarvez
Interesting: @MichaelWilhoite says new @49ers defense more similar to what SF ran in '14 than under Eric Mangini in '15 @SiriusXMNFL

Interesting. I believe thl alluded to the points that there are elements to both (some Fangio, some Mangini) actually but that's interesting MW thinks it mostly resembles Fangio's scheme overall.

I have no doubt that Wilhoite is referring to the coverage scheme between JoN and Fangio. For the ILBs, they will probably be pattern matching in a way similar to Fangio. For the CBs, a shift back to man coverage is also a shift back to what Fangio preferred.
My hope is that JoN reveals he is willing to pattern match with all 7 defenders and that he held back in CLE. Maybe he comes in and Reid Bethea tell him that they are comfortable playing in a full pattern match scheme and that allows JoN to do more elaborate coverage calls. Then again, many of the CBs on the roster did not get snaps under Fangio. Last season, I thought Mangini would retain Fangios coverage scheme simply because he came from Belichick's tree that involved patter matching. That was a very wrong assumption.

Man.. The last three pages have been an excellent read.. Nothing negative, just greatness.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Jcool:

Alex Marvez ‏@alexmarvez
Interesting: @MichaelWilhoite says new @49ers defense more similar to what SF ran in '14 than under Eric Mangini in '15 @SiriusXMNFL

Interesting. I believe thl alluded to the points that there are elements to both (some Fangio, some Mangini) actually but that's interesting MW thinks it mostly resembles Fangio's scheme overall.

I have no doubt that Wilhoite is referring to the coverage scheme between JoN and Fangio. For the ILBs, they will probably be pattern matching in a way similar to Fangio. For the CBs, a shift back to man coverage is also a shift back to what Fangio preferred.
My hope is that JoN reveals he is willing to pattern match with all 7 defenders and that he held back in CLE. Maybe he comes in and Reid Bethea tell him that they are comfortable playing in a full pattern match scheme and that allows JoN to do more elaborate coverage calls. Then again, many of the CBs on the roster did not get snaps under Fangio. Last season, I thought Mangini would retain Fangios coverage scheme simply because he came from Belichick's tree that involved patter matching. That was a very wrong assumption.

Wrong or right, assumptions were all we had back then. Like the assumption that, since the new DC and OC had a front row seat, if we ran the same systems from the previous regime and just focused on improving the glaring list of issues (like we kept reading about during the off season), we'd be in great shape despite the youth movement. Then the season started and...umm...well.

You'd HOPE any intelligent DC would walk in here and review the skill sets of players, review the tape and successes of the previous DC and modify his own playbook. There were even some successes under Mangini too.

There is an element of ego that needs to be removed in doing that though. That's why your point about talking to the veterans is a good point.

That said, like you said previously, there was a reason why we went after man CB's in Norman, Smith and grabbed Robinson and why we're even trying out Ward and Reaser outside too.

My guess is that the pattern matching will remain mostly dedicated to the ILB coverage even if that includes Tartt.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Jcool:

Alex Marvez ‏@alexmarvez
Interesting: @MichaelWilhoite says new @49ers defense more similar to what SF ran in '14 than under Eric Mangini in '15 @SiriusXMNFL

Interesting. I believe thl alluded to the points that there are elements to both (some Fangio, some Mangini) actually but that's interesting MW thinks it mostly resembles Fangio's scheme overall.

I have no doubt that Wilhoite is referring to the coverage scheme between JoN and Fangio. For the ILBs, they will probably be pattern matching in a way similar to Fangio. For the CBs, a shift back to man coverage is also a shift back to what Fangio preferred.
My hope is that JoN reveals he is willing to pattern match with all 7 defenders and that he held back in CLE. Maybe he comes in and Reid Bethea tell him that they are comfortable playing in a full pattern match scheme and that allows JoN to do more elaborate coverage calls. Then again, many of the CBs on the roster did not get snaps under Fangio. Last season, I thought Mangini would retain Fangios coverage scheme simply because he came from Belichick's tree that involved patter matching. That was a very wrong assumption.

Interesting enough, I too believe we definitely revert back to our man coverage days with a mixture of pattern matching sprinkled in on the back end . It will be interesting though to see how close this defense resembles the browns of the last two years. At the moment it's mostly what we have to go off of.

But, it's also important to point out that although O'Neil comes from that Pettine/Ryan school, O'Neil was coordinating Pettine's defense in Cleveland. Will O'Neil change it up a little bit now that he is definitively coordinating his own defense?

Originally posted by Willisfn4life:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Jcool:

Alex Marvez ‏@alexmarvez
Interesting: @MichaelWilhoite says new @49ers defense more similar to what SF ran in '14 than under Eric Mangini in '15 @SiriusXMNFL

Interesting. I believe thl alluded to the points that there are elements to both (some Fangio, some Mangini) actually but that's interesting MW thinks it mostly resembles Fangio's scheme overall.

I have no doubt that Wilhoite is referring to the coverage scheme between JoN and Fangio. For the ILBs, they will probably be pattern matching in a way similar to Fangio. For the CBs, a shift back to man coverage is also a shift back to what Fangio preferred.
My hope is that JoN reveals he is willing to pattern match with all 7 defenders and that he held back in CLE. Maybe he comes in and Reid Bethea tell him that they are comfortable playing in a full pattern match scheme and that allows JoN to do more elaborate coverage calls. Then again, many of the CBs on the roster did not get snaps under Fangio. Last season, I thought Mangini would retain Fangios coverage scheme simply because he came from Belichick's tree that involved patter matching. That was a very wrong assumption.

Interesting enough, I too believe we definitely revert back to our man coverage days with a mixture of pattern matching sprinkled in on the back end . It will be interesting though to see how close this defense resembles the browns of the last two years. At the moment it's mostly what we have to go off of.

But, it's also important to point out that although O'Neil comes from that Pettine/Ryan school, O'Neil was coordinating Pettine's defense in Cleveland. Will O'Neil change it up a little bit now that he is definitively coordinating his own defense?

Let's hope so. I would like to think that a new DC has his own ideas about improving a system he has been implementing.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Jcool:

Alex Marvez ‏@alexmarvez
Interesting: @MichaelWilhoite says new @49ers defense more similar to what SF ran in '14 than under Eric Mangini in '15 @SiriusXMNFL

Interesting. I believe thl alluded to the points that there are elements to both (some Fangio, some Mangini) actually but that's interesting MW thinks it mostly resembles Fangio's scheme overall.

I have no doubt that Wilhoite is referring to the coverage scheme between JoN and Fangio. For the ILBs, they will probably be pattern matching in a way similar to Fangio. For the CBs, a shift back to man coverage is also a shift back to what Fangio preferred.
My hope is that JoN reveals he is willing to pattern match with all 7 defenders and that he held back in CLE. Maybe he comes in and Reid Bethea tell him that they are comfortable playing in a full pattern match scheme and that allows JoN to do more elaborate coverage calls. Then again, many of the CBs on the roster did not get snaps under Fangio. Last season, I thought Mangini would retain Fangios coverage scheme simply because he came from Belichick's tree that involved patter matching. That was a very wrong assumption.

Wrong or right, assumptions were all we had back then. Like the assumption that, since the new DC and OC had a front row seat, if we ran the same systems from the previous regime and just focused on improving the glaring list of issues (like we kept reading about during the off season), we'd be in great shape despite the youth movement. Then the season started and...umm...well.

You'd HOPE any intelligent DC would walk in here and review the skill sets of players, review the tape and successes of the previous DC and modify his own playbook. There were even some successes under Mangini too.

There is an element of ego that needs to be removed in doing that though. That's why your point about talking to the veterans is a good point.

That said, like you said previously, there was a reason why we went after man CB's in Norman, Smith and grabbed Robinson and why we're even trying out Ward and Reaser outside too.

My guess is that the pattern matching will remain mostly dedicated to the ILB coverage even if that includes Tartt.

To be fair, Mangini could have looked at the tape from 2014 and then realized that we lost Willis, J Smith, Aldon, Borland, Ray Mac, Culliver, and cox. Maybe he came to the conclusion that Fangios system would not have worked with last year's players and tried to scheme to cover up the weaknesses. It was a failed experiment, but I think it looked a lot worse because of the expected drop off in talent. I doubt if Fangio had stayed we still would have been a top 5 defense but the stability and continuity probably would have prevented us from being so Jekyll and Hyde. No pun intended.

Originally posted by SofaKing:

Originally posted by thl408:

This is a good question. I don't think Reid has enough range to be a good Cover1 safety. I would like to say Ward because the hype around him on draft day was mini Earl Thomas. That's a hefty label to live up to, but their build and game seems similar. Quick, smart, plays bigger than he is. In the past, Fangio seemed to switch around who his Cover1 safety was whether it was Reid, Bethea, and even Whitner. Mangini preferred to use Reid whenever he dialed up Cover1 if I recall correctly. .

I agree. If we're going to be playing that much Cover 1, Ward should definitely be the single-high safety.

I'm not big into 40 times, but with a cover 1 safety, it matters. Pure track speed is not as important as reading a play quickly, but that extra recovery time can help. Reid's 4.53 is not exceptional.

I do think Ward could play single deep, but unless it's a robber play, the other safety would be put in man coverage. If the team takes a safety off the field for a corner, the d becomes easily telegraphed.

Although I think Ward might be the best cover 1 guy on the team because of his range, I think the team's best package and balance would be with Reid kicking back into deep coverage and Ward kicking up into man. Ward is so much better at man coverage than the other guys, Yet only a little better at being a single high deep safety. Robber plays give this look variation and unpredictability. Then there's always cover 3 zone blitzes, and two man coverages.

Originally posted by flynhayn15:

To be fair, Mangini could have looked at the tape from 2014 and then realized that we lost Willis, J Smith, Aldon, Borland, Ray Mac, Culliver, and cox. Maybe he came to the conclusion that Fangios system would not have worked with last year's players and tried to scheme to cover up the weaknesses. It was a failed experiment, but I think it looked a lot worse because of the expected drop off in talent. I doubt if Fangio had stayed we still would have been a top 5 defense but the stability and continuity probably would have prevented us from being so Jekyll and Hyde. No pun intended.

To add to that. Mangini liked the zone coverages which are more read and react than anything and can be effective but it is heavily dependent upon a good pass rush. When Mangini implemented his scheme, he thought he would have Aldon at his disposal and maybe, possibly Justin Smith. Obviously neither happened and by the time Aldon was released it was already late summer when it is a little too late for a major schematic overhaul.

Originally posted by flynhayn15:

To be fair, Mangini could have looked at the tape from 2014 and then realized that we lost Willis, J Smith, Aldon, Borland, Ray Mac, Culliver, and cox. Maybe he came to the conclusion that Fangios system would not have worked with last year's players and tried to scheme to cover up the weaknesses. It was a failed experiment, but I think it looked a lot worse because of the expected drop off in talent. I doubt if Fangio had stayed we still would have been a top 5 defense but the stability and continuity probably would have prevented us from being so Jekyll and Hyde. No pun intended.

Flyn, all true, but maybe I'm a little less sanguine about Mangini. Perhaps he did consider all the above. Or perhaps he was so busy angling for the slot at HC that he was otherwise occupied. Not trying to be unkind but that D, no matter what it is mangini ran, was always done with one eye looking at the HC slot. I believe with tomsul, he saw a way to the HC position. Ergo, he wasn't paying attn to the middle of the field being wide open what seemed like all game every game. WRs running amuck right down the mid 1/3 of our D backfield. Now maybe I exaggerate, but it was more than a bit disconcerting to see that same pattern occur over and over again. Maybe mangini was tuned in 100% to the task at hand. But as many times as I saw that mid 1/3 of the field wide open.....I wonder.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Jcool:

Alex Marvez ‏@alexmarvez
Interesting: @MichaelWilhoite says new @49ers defense more similar to what SF ran in '14 than under Eric Mangini in '15 @SiriusXMNFL

Interesting. I believe thl alluded to the points that there are elements to both (some Fangio, some Mangini) actually but that's interesting MW thinks it mostly resembles Fangio's scheme overall.

I have no doubt that Wilhoite is referring to the coverage scheme between JoN and Fangio. For the ILBs, they will probably be pattern matching in a way similar to Fangio. For the CBs, a shift back to man coverage is also a shift back to what Fangio preferred.
My hope is that JoN reveals he is willing to pattern match with all 7 defenders and that he held back in CLE. Maybe he comes in and Reid Bethea tell him that they are comfortable playing in a full pattern match scheme and that allows JoN to do more elaborate coverage calls. Then again, many of the CBs on the roster did not get snaps under Fangio. Last season, I thought Mangini would retain Fangios coverage scheme simply because he came from Belichick's tree that involved patter matching. That was a very wrong assumption.

The closer we get to the system Fangio ran, the better the defense can be. That's my take. Core players who have familiarity with it: Reid/Ward/Bethea, along with Bowman, Lynch, Brock and Johnson make the transition back a little easier. I have a feeling Johnson and Ward will be rotationally used based on matchups (hopefully no more using 5-10 Ward vs 6-5 receivers in the Red Zone.


Early prediction for starting defense:




I think Dial may start games initially, but Buckner's going to get loads of time. Wouldn't even be surprised if he actually wound up with more snaps than Dial, despite not "officially" starting. It bodes well that we have such good depth at DL and in the secondary, if these guys do wind up having to be on the field more, we have the depth to switch players if the current group keeps giving up plays, or if folks need a breather, we have quality players to step in for them. For some teams, a winded starter is still better than the alternative. Some teams don't have that luxury of rotating guys.

Originally posted by Willisfn4life:

Originally posted by flynhayn15:

To be fair, Mangini could have looked at the tape from 2014 and then realized that we lost Willis, J Smith, Aldon, Borland, Ray Mac, Culliver, and cox. Maybe he came to the conclusion that Fangios system would not have worked with last year's players and tried to scheme to cover up the weaknesses. It was a failed experiment, but I think it looked a lot worse because of the expected drop off in talent. I doubt if Fangio had stayed we still would have been a top 5 defense but the stability and continuity probably would have prevented us from being so Jekyll and Hyde. No pun intended.

To add to that. Mangini liked the zone coverages which are more read and react than anything and can be effective but it is heavily dependent upon a good pass rush. When Mangini implemented his scheme, he thought he would have Aldon at his disposal and maybe, possibly Justin Smith. Obviously neither happened and by the time Aldon was released it was already late summer when it is a little too late for a major schematic overhaul.

I was going to say the same.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Willisfn4life:

Originally posted by flynhayn15:

To be fair, Mangini could have looked at the tape from 2014 and then realized that we lost Willis, J Smith, Aldon, Borland, Ray Mac, Culliver, and cox. Maybe he came to the conclusion that Fangios system would not have worked with last year's players and tried to scheme to cover up the weaknesses. It was a failed experiment, but I think it looked a lot worse because of the expected drop off in talent. I doubt if Fangio had stayed we still would have been a top 5 defense but the stability and continuity probably would have prevented us from being so Jekyll and Hyde. No pun intended.

To add to that. Mangini liked the zone coverages which are more read and react than anything and can be effective but it is heavily dependent upon a good pass rush. When Mangini implemented his scheme, he thought he would have Aldon at his disposal and maybe, possibly Justin Smith. Obviously neither happened and by the time Aldon was released it was already late summer when it is a little too late for a major schematic overhaul.

I was going to say the same.

I was in agreement and nodding my head, and then saw Pasodocs post above. It made me wonder just how much time Mangini was running the defense and how much time he spent angling for Tomsula's job.

Originally posted by thl408:
Yeah less area to cover does make it easier. I wasn't thinking about that when I wrote the above. It doesn't always happen though. Only when the WR is lined up outside the numbers (plus split), with the ball marked on the far hashmark. This makes it a very far throw (width of the field).

Thanks for the info!

Originally posted by OnTheClock:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Jcool:
Alex Marvez ‏@alexmarvez
Interesting: @MichaelWilhoite says new @49ers defense more similar to what SF ran in '14 than under Eric Mangini in '15 @SiriusXMNFL

Interesting. I believe thl alluded to the points that there are elements to both (some Fangio, some Mangini) actually but that's interesting MW thinks it mostly resembles Fangio's scheme overall.

I have no doubt that Wilhoite is referring to the coverage scheme between JoN and Fangio. For the ILBs, they will probably be pattern matching in a way similar to Fangio. For the CBs, a shift back to man coverage is also a shift back to what Fangio preferred.
My hope is that JoN reveals he is willing to pattern match with all 7 defenders and that he held back in CLE. Maybe he comes in and Reid Bethea tell him that they are comfortable playing in a full pattern match scheme and that allows JoN to do more elaborate coverage calls. Then again, many of the CBs on the roster did not get snaps under Fangio. Last season, I thought Mangini would retain Fangios coverage scheme simply because he came from Belichick's tree that involved patter matching. That was a very wrong assumption.

The closer we get to the system Fangio ran, the better the defense can be. That's my take. Core players who have familiarity with it: Reid/Ward/Bethea, along with Bowman, Lynch, Brock and Johnson make the transition back a little easier. I have a feeling Johnson and Ward will be rotationally used based on matchups (hopefully no more using 5-10 Ward vs 6-5 receivers in the Red Zone.


Early prediction for starting defense:

Armstead - Williams - Dial

Lynch - Bowman - Hodges - Harold

D. Johnson/Ward - Brock

Bethea - Reid

I think Dial may start games initially, but Buckner's going to get loads of time. Wouldn't even be surprised if he actually wound up with more snaps than Dial, despite not "officially" starting. It bodes well that we have such good depth at DL and in the secondary, if these guys do wind up having to be on the field more, we have the depth to switch players if the current group keeps giving up plays, or if folks need a breather, we have quality players to step in for them. For some teams, a winded starter is still better than the alternative. Some teams don't have that luxury of rotating guys.

yeah I think that is exactly what base will look like but we'll be in sub packages the majority of the time.