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Originally posted by fortyninerglory:Lolz -- who are these Hall of Famer (s) with an "S" that you speak of? I only know of one -- Jerry Rice.
Whereas there's no doubt Randy Moss, Gronkowski, Welker, and Edelman all have a superb chance to get in.
Originally posted by NinerGM:
"I think that it's really hard to put anyone in that bucket," Montana told the Hallmark Channel. "Even before he got five — you look back to some of the guys some people don't even know, Sammy Baugh or Otto Graham, I can't remember which one but one of them won like seven or nine championships and so far ahead of their time. It's so hard to compare guys from then to now, how they would compare here and how we would compare back then."
For the record, Graham is the quarterback who won seven championships, four with the Browns in the All-America Football Conference and then three more after the AAFC folded and the Browns moved to the NFL. Baugh was a two-time NFL champion and perhaps the greatest example of a player who simply can't be compared to today's quarterbacks: Baugh was not only a quarterback who led the NFL in passing yards four times, but also a punter who led the NFL in punting average five times and a defensive back who led the NFL in interceptions once.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/02/10/joe-montana-i-cant-call-tom-brady-or-anyone-the-best-ever/
Originally posted by genus49:This has already been mentioned as a flawed argument.
There are injury prone QBs in today's game as well and there are guys who hardly miss a start. Brady is one of those guys and his diet and training is very unique and not something a lot of other guys do.
Tony Romo is playing in the same rules as Brady and he can't stay healthy. RG3, same rules can't stay healthy. Ben Roethlisberger, same rules can't stay healthy.
If the new rules help anything it's stats. They allow drives to continue where they wouldn't before. However Brady played before the recent rule changes were made and still won a SB...hell the Pats were the reason the rules were changed.
But do you think somehow because a flag is thrown defenders aren't looking to put Brady on a stretcher? The hit he took from TJ Ward would somehow not put him out for a season if it was flagged?
And once again the hit that took out Montana was and is perfectly legal today. So why exactly would Brady get retired early with different rules? Dan Marino played with the same rules as Montana he didn't get retired early.
Part of Montana's game was scrambling around...that leads to more hits regardless of era. Brady's game is different and it's why he doesn't get killed nearly as much as someone who would run around back there holding the ball longer.
Yes it's difficult grading guys across different eras but I'd say playing today definitely has it's own challenges including dealing with the salary cap so winning in today's NFL when there are lot more teams(Since Montana mentioned Graham that was like 16 teams and 1 playoff game for the championship game, little easier to win) and talent is spread out so much because of the cap.
Originally posted by fortyninerglory:
Have you ever seen Montana play? Im curious as to why is it so hard to admit that Montana had "it" over Brady? Are you blind by the longevity and stats? Is Bill Russell greater than Jordan? Is Emmitt Smith greater than Tomlinson?
Hah you've seen the greatness of Brady against your Hawks. He dinked and dunked your boys all game long and your defense wasn't quick enough to make a tackle 1 on 1.
Originally posted by genus49:Brady played with Moss for 2 seasons. Gronk can't stay healthy. Walker and Edelman are no HOFers. Not even close.
Originally posted by natediaz:according to heath evans, brady/manning were doing rocket science compared what the teams ran in the 80's especially niners west coast offense. i agree. let's be very honest here. west coast offense is too simple for today's nfl.
and the difference between montana and brady aren't the actually play on the field. montana was great. brady is great. but the big difference is not when the play starts. it's before the snap. this isn't just my own opinion. many great ex-players such as steve smith, ray lewis, jason taylor, etc said the same thing.
both brady/manning are legendary when it comes to deciphering the defense.
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
You're reaching. Welker has a good chance for the hall and edelman is turning into all pro. Gronk is going in the hall.
Originally posted by birdie2bogey:
Agree to disagree.
When Brady took a hit that knocked him out for the season, the NFL made that hit illegal and then said any grazing hit to the head is illegal.
Everytime Brady gets hit relatively hard he expects a flag and sadly, he gets them. As a byproduct, playing defense is much tougher now. I am sure players want to.put a good hit on the QB, but one roughing the passer equates to 15 yards and a likely fine. To make that fair, everytime the QB pleads for a flag for a legal hit should be under review for a fine (just a random thought).
I don't blame Brady or hold it against him, but the protection for the QB is very real right now. Yes, injuries happen in all eras and fortunately there is an emphasis on concussion awareness now, but because QBs still get hurt currently ignores that today's NFL puts an emphasis to protect their golden product (QB).
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
So manning is better now too?
Originally posted by genus49:I'm reaching and you're the one saying Welker is a HOFer and Edelman is an all pro?
What did Welker do before or after Brady? He had a big TD season but that was with Manning and their historical offense then quickly fell into nothing.
He's 47th in receiving yards. 119th in TDs. Those HOF numbers to you? Those will only get lower as other guys keep putting up big numbers.
As for Edelman being all pro...what? He's reached 1000 yards twice in his career. His career high in TDs in a season is 7. His best yardage output in a season is 1106 yards. It took him 5 seasons to crack over 400 yards in a season.
He's a tough and smart WR but he's not even close to all pro.
Not to mention you're comparing those guys to friggin Jerry Rice?? Hell they don't even stack up to John Taylor.
Originally posted by genus49:Originally posted by birdie2bogey:Agree to disagree.
When Brady took a hit that knocked him out for the season, the NFL made that hit illegal and then said any grazing hit to the head is illegal.
Everytime Brady gets hit relatively hard he expects a flag and sadly, he gets them. As a byproduct, playing defense is much tougher now. I am sure players want to.put a good hit on the QB, but one roughing the passer equates to 15 yards and a likely fine. To make that fair, everytime the QB pleads for a flag for a legal hit should be under review for a fine (just a random thought).
I don't blame Brady or hold it against him, but the protection for the QB is very real right now. Yes, injuries happen in all eras and fortunately there is an emphasis on concussion awareness now, but because QBs still get hurt currently ignores that today's NFL puts an emphasis to protect their golden product (QB).
So the NFL didn't want to see their best players targeted in the worst spots? How is Brady to blame for that? Same injury happeened to Carson Palmer. But you guys want to act like those rules straight up make it impossible for defenders to make those hits.
They can still do them they'll just get flagged for it...and once again the hit that took out Montana was perfectly legal and still is today.
Brady does look for flags, just like every other smart QB in today's NFL. Many defenders actually commend Brady for taking hits like a champ. Everyone wants to pretend that Montana would thrive today and somehow would never get hurt...he may but we really have no idea. He would certainly be able to put up better stats but he could get hurt even worse today with bigger, stronger and faster players playing the game.
Originally posted by birdie2bogey:
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by birdie2bogey:
Agree to disagree.
When Brady took a hit that knocked him out for the season, the NFL made that hit illegal and then said any grazing hit to the head is illegal.
Everytime Brady gets hit relatively hard he expects a flag and sadly, he gets them. As a byproduct, playing defense is much tougher now. I am sure players want to.put a good hit on the QB, but one roughing the passer equates to 15 yards and a likely fine. To make that fair, everytime the QB pleads for a flag for a legal hit should be under review for a fine (just a random thought).
I don't blame Brady or hold it against him, but the protection for the QB is very real right now. Yes, injuries happen in all eras and fortunately there is an emphasis on concussion awareness now, but because QBs still get hurt currently ignores that today's NFL puts an emphasis to protect their golden product (QB).
So the NFL didn't want to see their best players targeted in the worst spots? How is Brady to blame for that? Same injury happeened to Carson Palmer. But you guys want to act like those rules straight up make it impossible for defenders to make those hits.
They can still do them they'll just get flagged for it...and once again the hit that took out Montana was perfectly legal and still is today.
Brady does look for flags, just like every other smart QB in today's NFL. Many defenders actually commend Brady for taking hits like a champ. Everyone wants to pretend that Montana would thrive today and somehow would never get hurt...he may but we really have no idea. He would certainly be able to put up better stats but he could get hurt even worse today with bigger, stronger and faster players playing the game.
Pretty sure I said I dont hold it against Brady in my post. My point is that it is difficult to compare across different eras. Also, I mentioned players get fined for illegal hits. Once you threaten a players money, they will be forced to adjust.
If we want to play the hypothetical, then what if Montana was able to play 16 seasons like Brady with Bill Walsh? In 9 seasons, Montana won 4 Super Bowls. It took Brady 14 seasons to win 4. What if Montana had the opportunity to start for 16 seasons as a Niner with Walsh? Could have 6+... We could never know because obviously it never happened, but if you compare across different eras, then you start to run into the hypothetical scenarios. Nonetheless, there are real differences between the eras that shouldn't be ignored.
My point remains, that Brady is the best of his era and Montana was the best of his era. Comparing them to identify the best becomes more complicated than people are willing to address.