Colin Kaepernick Thread

Originally posted by Joecool:
Optimistic perspective: maybe they are both really good which explains why both are performing the same.

No. I don't think either QB is really good right now. They are both inconsistent and both struggle in different areas. At the end of the day, I want the guy that gives us the best chance to win. If it's Blaine, so be it. If it's Kaep, so be it.

One thing that I will say...if it's Blaine, you're not going to see me dedicate years of my life s**tting on the guy (even if he takes us all the way to the Super Bowl) just because I'm upset about the decision. That's my word.

Originally posted by Buchy:
Really?

I remember multiple film breakdown threads from JonnyDel and THL in 2013 and 2014 where he was going through multiple reads and progressions,a s well as changing to the right plays at the LOS based on the pre-snap read.

Undoubtedly something broke last season, I suspect it was confidence after 2 seasons of abysmal oline play where we were second in most sacks allowed in both seasons.

I think Kap's issue is anticipation in terms of throwing before a receiver comes open, but that should be less of an issue in Chip's system.

I'm also curious if any of the Kap critics would take Newton over Kap, because Newton has worse accuracy issues, is widely critiqued on reading the field and progressions but he's used in an offensive system tailored to him and it got him MVP and a Superbowl appearance, after he was slated for his performance in 2014.

There is evidence of Kaep going through multiple reads and progressions. People look at an "athletic" QB and automatically assume he's dumb and can't go through progressions. Can't read defenses. Only seem to hear this about those kinds of QB's. It's hard to really determine what the play call is and what the QB is instructed to do. It's amazing to me that without this information people can determine that Kaep is not making the right reads and isn't going through progressions properly but Gabbert magically is. It's a perception that is born out of ignorance IMO.

Cam Newton just a year ago was really in trouble. Thing about him is he was able to sit in the pocket and go through his progressions. Kaep was running for his life. Very easy to make the right reads without pressure. There's a reason why teams try to pressure QBs because it's very difficult to make the right read when you have no time to throw and start watching the rush. What would have benefited Kaep was quick checkdowns...exactly what Blaine did...(whom on many occasions automatically checked it down before even going through his reads). It would have at least quieted the group that think immediately checking the ball down = reading defenses.

Kaep has his own issues but it's hard as hell to work on those when you don't have time to throw. And the funny thing on top of that is he also changed his throwing motion. So he was running for his life AND changing his throwing motion AND injured. I mean, not excusing the kid but it gives some reasoning as to why he fell off a cliff last year. Some good games (had time against meh defenses) and bad games (no time against better defenses).

Originally posted by NYniner85:
I think you and jonnydel always bring up good points and this is a solid discussion. I do see Kap running more simply on the fact that they will be out of the shotgun exclusively unlike in the past. Kap might not be the most accurate if you're going off a 2015 season but I don't put stock into most of our players good or bad. Blaine's numbers in this league have been piss poor for years and throwing a bunch of check downs doesn't equal being more accurate IMO.

You bring up Kap having a superior team but do you think Blaine would have won more games or done the things Kap did with the same team around him? I sure as heck don't think so.

I don't hate the idea of Blaine in fact I'll love it if he can play to the level of his draft pick...I can't see him taking the team down the field if we are down and coming back just can't see it. We've seen Kap do it. I'll root for both but prefer the upside of Kap in this system vs the "safe" play of Blaine

Last season in Chicago against the bears Blaine did exactly that. Down 7 with under 2 minutes left ran the ball in for a TD. Then in OT he hit Torrey on a deep pass for the game winning TD. Not a huge Gabbert fan, but he does have some play making ability.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000595480/49ers-vs-Bears-highlights

The San Francisco 49ers are who they are because starting with Bill Walsh and Joe Montana, we would out smart you. No matter what you did on defense, our in play offensive adjustment would make it wrong.

The name of the game on defense in the NFL is to take away what you do well, and force you to beat us with what you don't do so well. If you can't make in play adjustments, that makes the defense's job much easier.

Chip Kelly likes to put all five eligible receivers into the pattern. There's a reason for that. You can't cover five receivers all the time consistently. You can cover one or two very well. What that means is that you will need to make post snap adjustments to quickly get off the covered receivers and get to the better match ups or windows, and the quarterback that can best do that will be the one that will make this offense work. If you don't have a quarterback that can do that, you should have kept Harbaugh, and he didn't last very long in the NFL.

Originally posted by BOI49er:
The San Francisco 49ers are who they are because starting with Bill Walsh and Joe Montana, we would out smart you. No matter what you did on defense, our in play offensive adjustment would make it wrong.

The name of the game on defense in the NFL is to take away what you do well, and force you to beat us with what you don't do so well. If you can't make in play adjustments, that makes the defense's job much easier.

Chip Kelly likes to put all five eligible receivers into the pattern. There's a reason for that. You can't cover five receivers all the time consistently. You can cover one or two very well. What that means is that you will need to make post snap adjustments to quickly get off the covered receivers and get to the better match ups or windows, and the quarterback that can best do that will be the one that will make this offense work. If you don't have a quarterback that can do that, you should have kept Harbaugh, and he didn't last very long in the NFL.

The qb is getting all the attention, but the other guys on offense are learning Kelly's system too. It's only been 1 week of camp for all of these guys. We should slow the expectation a bit. Hopefully this will be a functional offense once the season starts, but it's going to be a work in progress well into the season. It's not going to be a well oil machine of Walsh and Montana.

Originally posted by Blindfury:
There is evidence of Kaep going through multiple reads and progressions. People look at an "athletic" QB and automatically assume he's dumb and can't go through progressions. Can't read defenses. Only seem to hear this about those kinds of QB's. It's hard to really determine what the play call is and what the QB is instructed to do. It's amazing to me that without this information people can determine that Kaep is not making the right reads and isn't going through progressions properly but Gabbert magically is. It's a perception that is born out of ignorance IMO.

Cam Newton just a year ago was really in trouble. Thing about him is he was able to sit in the pocket and go through his progressions. Kaep was running for his life. Very easy to make the right reads without pressure. There's a reason why teams try to pressure QBs because it's very difficult to make the right read when you have no time to throw and start watching the rush. What would have benefited Kaep was quick checkdowns...exactly what Blaine did...(whom on many occasions automatically checked it down before even going through his reads). It would have at least quieted the group that think immediately checking the ball down = reading defenses.

Kaep has his own issues but it's hard as hell to work on those when you don't have time to throw. And the funny thing on top of that is he also changed his throwing motion. So he was running for his life AND changing his throwing motion AND injured. I mean, not excusing the kid but it gives some reasoning as to why he fell off a cliff last year. Some good games (had time against meh defenses) and bad games (no time against better defenses).

At one point, I thought Kap was ahead of Cam and Wussell as a pocket passer. That's how highly I thought of Kap. Looking back, that was pretty homerish of me. Cam was fortunate to be in an offense that I thought truly highlighted his strengths, and masked his weaknesses. An offense that incorporated designed QB runs and was run heavy, which allowed him to get a good playaction game going. It attacked intermediate/deep by keeping in extra pass blockers - more blockers, less routes. That's an offense I think would also favor Kap and his cannon, and would mask his inconsistent speed of decision making.

One thing Chip's offense has started to face in the past 2 seasons is lots of man coverage (Chip is on record saying this). I always thought Kap was better throwing into man coverage than he was into zone coverage, where every defender is able to read his eyes. I would use his stats vs ARI to backup this claim. I know he had a bad game in his last outing against ARI, but historically, he's been very good against their man scheme. I see him comfortable throwing into tight coverage if the defender's back was turned to him. I saw him be very hesitant throwing into open space before the WR made his break, and not very good at using his eyes to move defenders - things required to bust zone coverage.

So there are things that work for Kap and against Kap in Chip's offense imo. Sending out 5 routes and forcing him to make quick consistent decisions (throw in rhythm) work against him. Facing man coverage and the zone read being the bread and butter run play work towards his strengths.

Originally posted by iLLEST209ER:

Last season in Chicago against the bears Blaine did exactly that. Down 7 with under 2 minutes left ran the ball in for a TD. Then in OT he hit Torrey on a deep pass for the game winning TD. Not a huge Gabbert fan, but he does have some play making ability.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000595480/49ers-vs-Bears-highlights

One game and it should have never happened because the Bears kicker f**ked it up twice! In fact other than on run and throw he had a pretty s**tty game. I'll add smith was wide f**king open lol.

He then followed it up with getting out played by Manziel and throwing 3 INTs in Cin the next two weeks.

People get all tight in the pants off of two plays from Blaine lol. We've seen Kap take over games along with coming back to win it more than once.

I saw wayyy too many check downs,under throws, and lack of pushing the ball down field (especially on 3rd downs) to say he's got play making ability...I will also say I can't put stock into our players play based off last season (good or bad).

We will see I'll root for either, if we want to play just well enough to lose Blaine's the pick if we want a chance to actually make the playoffs Kap or bust...end of the day we should be looking for a new QB, so in the grand scheme maybe I want Blaine lol

#suckforwatson

Originally posted by NYniner85:
One game and it should have never happened because the Bears kicker f**ked it up twice! In fact other than on run and throw he had a pretty s**tty game. I'll add smith was wide f**king open lol.

He then followed it up with getting out played by Manziel and throwing 3 INTs in Cin the next two weeks.

People get all tight in the pants off of two plays from Blaine lol. We've seen Kap take over games along with coming back to win it more than once.

I saw wayyy too many check downs,under throws, and lack of pushing the ball down field (especially on 3rd downs) to say he's got play making ability...I will also say I can't put stock into our players play based off last season (good or bad).

We will see I'll root for either, if we want to play just well enough to lose Blaine's the pick if we want a chance to actually make the playoffs Kap or bust...end of the day we should be looking for a new QB, so in the grand scheme maybe I want Blaine lol

#suckforwatson

I completely understand where you are coming from. I would actually prefer Kaep to return to something close to his previous form. Just saying that Gabbert isn't THAT bad lol.

Originally posted by Buchy:

Undoubtedly something broke last season, I suspect it was confidence after 2 seasons of abysmal oline play where we were second in most sacks allowed in both seasons.

I have wondered that if Kap working with Warner (and others) before last season actually ended up messing him up when the season started. There was a lot of talk that Kap had adjusted his passing delivery and some other mechanics. I don't think he had enough repetitions to make those new mechanics feel natural when the season started. It could be that things like bad offensive line play gave him less time when, due to still trying to adjust to the new mechanics, he actually needed more time. With so much pressure so fast he probably naturally fell back to old habits but his new programming could have gotten in the way and he might have gotten hung up in a terrible in-between situation where he hadn't mastered the new stuff to be better yet and couldn't react the way he had in the past that had worked okay. And that may be one of the biggest reasons he lost his confidence which made his play even worse, which made him lose even more confidence, which made him play worse...

I have no way of knowing whether any of that is true. It's all speculation, but it seems plausible.

Maybe Kap just can't get his head into processing things at a franchise quarterback speed, but maybe last year he got caught in a perfect storm of things that led to his collapse and Kelly will find a way to get him back on track to being a franchise quarterback. Watching which way this develops is one of the things that makes this pre-season so interesting.

GONZO had been given 2 years to get his MOJO back.. instead, he went on a DIVA TRIP and even crossed the line by going after ALDRUNK's meat.

.. while SUNSHINE's been only given last year, and yet, you guys are speaking as IF HE doesn't deserve a shot this year??

RG3 was available
BRADFORD was there...

and no one wanted to make a move (UP) in securing 1 of the 2 QBs..

how do you guys exactly hope to find the next signal caller??

roll the dice and land a Brady?? GOOD LUCK!!

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by jonnydel:
Though, from what I saw of Chip's system on film, the QB running portion of the game is not needing a top flight runner to be successful. Even when he had Vick running the show, the speed element of the QB wasn't as big of an issue. Chip uses the QB as a part of his horizontal stretch scheme to spread out the defense even more and provide good angles in a zone blocking scheme - which most ZBS don't provide. A speed element from the QB could make it more lethal, when employed, but it's not going to make the overall scheme any more effective IMO. The handoff to the RB is based off a read, not the QB's athleticism. From what I saw, it was a low percentage of the plays that the read allowed for a QB run. Most teams, no matter who was playing QB, weren't going to give the guy a free run around the end. So, the running attempts for CK wouldn't skyrocket compared to Bradford or Foles IMO. And overall, I think it's a minority element among the requirements for a QB in Chip's system.

If it was so important, why did Chip trade Foles for Bradford instead of a guy like Tyrod Taylor or another running QB?

The ability of the QB to make sharp, accurate throws is still far more important in a Chip system than the running element - it's why he has said it, over and over and over again.

Chip was getting a 11th year in the league Vick and as much as everyone hates Kap he is actually more accurate than him. So you're saying Kap isn't great at the read option compared to say Blaine? I will disagree with that. I also disagree having a great running threat that can blast out a 70 yard run on any given option doesn't help with scheme.

You also saw Bradford/Foles/Sanchez running the read option (low % of runs) not someone like Kap big difference. MM ran for something like 800 yards with Chip so yeah it can be a BIG part to a QBs game when they actually can do it....there's no point to running a read option if the QB isn't a threat to run IMO.

You throw out Taylor but up until last yr he'd done zero in the league lol poor example IMO. Bradford offered the other element needed in chip's system he's known for being accurate. Plus there were talks of him trying to trade Bradford and other assists to get Mariota.

Also I never said accuracy wasn't important... Blaine Gabbert's career comp % is 56% kap's is 60%

I'm not saying that Kap can't or wouldn't run the read option well. It's the amount of impact he would have running it compared to someone without the top flight speed - in Chip's NFL system. In College, there were times when Mariota would keep the ball or it was designed to keep him because he was such a far and above athlete over the guys trying to cover him, reads didn't really matter. In the NFL, DE's and LB's are so fast that, the QB has to make the correct read on the read-option, regardless of how fast CK is, he can't beat that defender if the guys is playing QB run...period. We've seen that the past 2 years.

What I'm saying is, the amount of times teams playing against Philly, with Vick, Foles and Bradford that they left the QB uncovered on a read-option was, maybe, 5% of the time - that included read-option and passing plays with read-option looks. Just because CK would be in there wouldn't mean there'd be more QB runs, because it's based off the defensive play, not the playcaller or QB. He's supposed to read the defense. If the defense was only willing to give that QB run so few times against the aforementioned QB's, now much less would they allow a guy like CK? Like I've said, we've already seen that the past 2 years.

My statement wasn't against CK's ability to run the read-option, but the defenses' willingness to allow the qb run on a read-option.

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by mojave45:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by mojave45:

If Kaepernick was such a perfect fit for Kelly's offense as his fanatical fans believe there shouldn't even be a competition. I mean here he is, until mid last season our undisputed starter since he took over, and he has to compete with a failed QB,that was almost out of the league. To hear his supporters tell it, the only way Kap could not start is some dark scheme involving nefarious "politics" .

My belief is that if he doesn't start, it is because he lacks the repetitive accuracy and quick decision making Kelly will require.

I even heard some whining that he couldn't be expected to fix all those issues in a "few weeks" under Kelly. I agree. He should have been working on those issues for a few years.

There really shouldn't be a competition. As the long term starter Kap should know the quirks and habits of his team, have a deep rapport with his receivers and RB(Hyde), and be well respected and embraced by his team mates. If he isn't, and doesn't have those things nailed down by now, that isn't politics, that is just sad.

I know his followers are scrambling to cover all the ridiculous statements they made during the past off season, where basically every person except him is to blame, but there is no one to blame but Kap himself if he loses the head to head competition.

Kelly may well choose Kaepernick over Gabbert. Given their respective career numbers it shouldn't even be a dicussion. The fact that it is not only a discussion,but one that is coming down to a preseason decision should be troubling to all 49er fans.

I don't personally believe Gabbert has shown what it takes to be the QB of the future for us, so it is a bad place to be thinking Kap is at the level where he hasn't beaten this guy out by now.

I hear what you're saying and I get it for sure (and yes we disagree on this front it's all good )....I will continue to state he's been throwing the football for what week and a half after not being able to do so for 7 months and 3 surgeries.

Accuracy is important but we saw with Foles/Bradford Chip's offense makes a QB more accurate (look at Philly numbers vs Rams). As far as rapport goes who says he doesn't I mean the practice before yesterday he had a great outing throwing for like 4 TDs I believe.

Nothing wrong with a QB competition IMO.

I agree there is nothing wrong with a competion. My comments about that were a general response to the snark I get from a couple of posters when any criticism at all is made of Kap, and certainly does not include your posts.

I don't know that Kap does or doesn't have that rapport with his team mates, he may well have, but sitting here as a fan I have heard far too much discussion about it to dismiss it out of hand.

Yes, Kelly has made other QB's look more accurate. He may be able to do that, he may choose differently. A couple of weeks will tell.

I am not one of the fans that believe Gabbert is a slam dunk answer at QB. I have concerns with both of them. I come off more critical about Kap because when I post anything critical his attack squad gets involved. Then I respond in kind.

I would be very happy if it turns out that your faith in Kap is proven to be correct! That would be good for us. The difference is that I won't believe it until I see it.

On the flip side, Gabbert can't beat out a guy that just started throwing after 3 surgeries and all of the weight loss. Gabbert got all of the off season throws and he is still struggling to complete passes at the same level of the QB that missed everything and still may not be 100% healthy as he couldn't even fully participate in the last mini camp or OTA's.

Bottom line, we have all seen what a healthy Kap can do as well as a healthy Gabbert. I would take a healthy Kap over Gabbert all day!

In a nutshell, I would take the best I have ever seen of Kap, over the best I have ever seen of Gabbert, of course!

Problem is for me, I don't see the arrow pointing up for him. My issue isn't with Kap vs Gabbert, and am not saying Gabbert will be some kind of savior for us. Like I said earlier, I hope your analysis is correct, that Kap comes back and takes us back to the promised land, lol. I would be ecstatic. But I just don't see it from my perspective. If Gabbert is our starter, I am not feeling that either. I have serious reservations about both,not one over the other.

Let's just hope one of these guys jumps up does something this year!

Originally posted by thl408:
At one point, I thought Kap was ahead of Cam and Wussell as a pocket passer. That's how highly I thought of Kap. Looking back, that was pretty homerish of me. Cam was fortunate to be in an offense that I thought truly highlighted his strengths, and masked his weaknesses. An offense that incorporated designed QB runs and was run heavy, which allowed him to get a good playaction game going. It attacked intermediate/deep by keeping in extra pass blockers - more blockers, less routes. That's an offense I think would also favor Kap and his cannon, and would mask his inconsistent speed of decision making.

One thing Chip's offense has started to face in the past 2 seasons is lots of man coverage (Chip is on record saying this). I always thought Kap was better throwing into man coverage than he was into zone coverage, where every defender is able to read his eyes. I would use his stats vs ARI to backup this claim. I know he had a bad game in his last outing against ARI, but historically, he's been very good against their man scheme. I see him comfortable throwing into tight coverage if the defender's back was turned to him. I saw him be very hesitant throwing into open space before the WR made his break, and not very good at using his eyes to move defenders - things required to bust zone coverage.

So there are things that work for Kap and against Kap in Chip's offense imo. Sending out 5 routes and forcing him to make quick consistent decisions (throw in rhythm) work against him. Facing man coverage and the zone read being the bread and butter run play work towards his strengths.

Nice post, and I agree with all of it. The one thing I would suggest is that if Kaepernick is the QB, the defenses would move away from trend on Kelly and go back to zone to read Kaepernick's eyes and flow to them. That book is already written.

http://www.49erswebzone.com/news/95979-colin-kaepernick-does-not-practice-thursday/

lol Kaep already sore from throwing just one week into TC

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
http://www.49erswebzone.com/news/95979-colin-kaepernick-does-not-practice-thursday/

lol Kaep already sore from throwing just one week into TC

yeah real lol that a guy injured all offseason is neck to neck with a healthy guy who had 7 months head start.