Colin Kaepernick Thread

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Though, from what I saw of Chip's system on film, the QB running portion of the game is not needing a top flight runner to be successful. Even when he had Vick running the show, the speed element of the QB wasn't as big of an issue. Chip uses the QB as a part of his horizontal stretch scheme to spread out the defense even more and provide good angles in a zone blocking scheme - which most ZBS don't provide. A speed element from the QB could make it more lethal, when employed, but it's not going to make the overall scheme any more effective IMO. The handoff to the RB is based off a read, not the QB's athleticism. From what I saw, it was a low percentage of the plays that the read allowed for a QB run. Most teams, no matter who was playing QB, weren't going to give the guy a free run around the end. So, the running attempts for CK wouldn't skyrocket compared to Bradford or Foles IMO. And overall, I think it's a minority element among the requirements for a QB in Chip's system.

If it was so important, why did Chip trade Foles for Bradford instead of a guy like Tyrod Taylor or another running QB?

The ability of the QB to make sharp, accurate throws is still far more important in a Chip system than the running element - it's why he has said it, over and over and over again.

Chip was getting a 11th year in the league Vick and as much as everyone hates Kap he is actually more accurate than him. So you're saying Kap isn't great at the read option compared to say Blaine? I will disagree with that. I also disagree having a great running threat that can blast out a 70 yard run on any given option doesn't help with scheme.

You also saw Bradford/Foles/Sanchez running the read option (low % of runs) not someone like Kap big difference. MM ran for something like 800 yards with Chip so yeah it can be a BIG part to a QBs game when they actually can do it....there's no point to running a read option if the QB isn't a threat to run IMO.

You throw out Taylor but up until last yr he'd done zero in the league lol poor example IMO. Bradford offered the other element needed in chip's system he's known for being accurate. Plus there were talks of him trying to trade Bradford and other assists to get Mariota.

Also I never said accuracy wasn't important... Blaine Gabbert's career comp % is 56% kap's is 60%

Don't want to disrupt the flow of this, but was thinking about a couple if things you mentioned and what johhnydel said.

I don't think we would see more running from Kap, because as it was pointed out, that is based on the read by the QB and not by design, but yes it would seem that Kap would be more dangerous when he does run. Based on making the correct reads, which is a concern for me, but we can disagree there.

The accuracy issue... I believe your career numbers on Kap vs Gabbert, but would think that the only really fair comparison is last year when they were both hurried and so evaluated fairly equally. Kap has had superior teams around him up to that point so if his numbers weren't the better ones I would be surprised.

But back to the important thing you posted out... In Kelly's system, if Kap runs it correctly, abd his runs are more limited and his passing accuracy is where it should be, therefore runs being more of a surprise, they should be highly effective. This is where Steve Young was able to change his emphasis away from being ready to take it and run every play, and instead emphasized his passing, making fewer runs more devastating.


Or am I missing the point?

Originally posted by BleedsRedNGold:

Originally posted by BOI49er:
No we not, we talking about his whole body of work, and his confidence, and his effort, and his improvement in six years.

That body of work is pretty damn good. The selective amnesia of the Kap haters is typical of haters of all kinds. He passes the "YouTube Test" for me. Meaning that if he has a highlight reel over over 10 minutes of unique footage, he's a pretty damn good quarterback.

You can b***h about his 2014 and 2015 seasons all you want, but those were horrible situations for any QB much less a relatively inexperienced one.

I'm not onboard anyone's train right now. I just say stop the hate and let the chips fall as they may. Chip Kelly is a capable coach and I trust his judgement. The best QB will be on the field leading the offense.

This is where we differ. Obviously, you judge his body of work by the team success. What I'm saying is that he was Never very good at pre snap reads, post snap reads, going through his progressions, seeing the whole field, and making quick decision adjustments to the play depending on defensive movements. It's not that he could do these things in 2012 and 2013, and only when the team got weaker, he didn't have time. Drill down into his personal performance, and it's clear to see he could Never do these things well. And today, it's clear he has been Completely incapable of getting Any better in any of these things. The only difference is that Harbaugh didn't require them, and built a simple read offense around him. Now that every other coach in the league requires these skills, and he knows he can't do it, he'd rather warm the bench and collect his $11.9, than bet on himself with a $7m salary and a Super Bowl team.

Originally posted by BOI49er:

http://49ers.pressdemocrat.com/49ers-trKaaining-camp-report-day-9-return-kezar-stadium/

Kaeprrnick can't get passed an occasional second read, and can't make two reads on opposite sides of the field. He stares down his receivers. Is he even trying, or is he this bad?

He didn't bet on himself in a perfect Super Bowl situation in Denver for a pay cut to $7m, instead opting for a guaranteed $11.9m even if he finds himself sitting on his butt. I think he's done, and just trying to bank as much money before he's out the door. If he can milk an injury for next year too, he will. Watch out, Niners! His confidence is shot, and I don't think even he thinks he can compete. He can't read defenses nor make quick reads and adjustments, and the only guy that would let him get away with that and tell him he's great is now out of the league and in a league he has no eligibility.

Sad, but pretty well sums it up.

Originally posted by BOI49er:

Originally posted by BleedsRedNGold:

Originally posted by BOI49er:
No we not, we talking about his whole body of work, and his confidence, and his effort, and his improvement in six years.

That body of work is pretty damn good. The selective amnesia of the Kap haters is typical of haters of all kinds. He passes the "YouTube Test" for me. Meaning that if he has a highlight reel over over 10 minutes of unique footage, he's a pretty damn good quarterback.

You can b***h about his 2014 and 2015 seasons all you want, but those were horrible situations for any QB much less a relatively inexperienced one.

I'm not onboard anyone's train right now. I just say stop the hate and let the chips fall as they may. Chip Kelly is a capable coach and I trust his judgement. The best QB will be on the field leading the offense.

This is where we differ. Obviously, you judge his body of work by the team success. What I'm saying is that he was Never very good at pre snap reads, post snap reads, going through his progressions, seeing the whole field, and making quick decision adjustments to the play depending on defensive movements. It's not that he could do these things in 2012 and 2013, and only when the team got weaker, he didn't have time. Drill down into his personal performance, and it's clear to see he could Never do these things well. And today, it's clear he has been Completely incapable of getting Any better in any of these things. The only difference is that Harbaugh didn't require them, and built a simple read offense around him. Now that every other coach in the league requires these skills, and he knows he can't do it, he'd rather warm the bench and collect his $11.9, than bet on himself with a $7m salary and a Super Bowl team.

Kaep is not a first round prospect and was/is a project. to do what he has done is crazy.

This year is the first year he is receiving actual coaching from real offensive coaches.

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by BOI49er:

Originally posted by BleedsRedNGold:

Originally posted by BOI49er:

No we not, we talking about his whole body of work, and his confidence, and his effort, and his improvement in six years.

That body of work is pretty damn good. The selective amnesia of the Kap haters is typical of haters of all kinds. He passes the "YouTube Test" for me. Meaning that if he has a highlight reel over over 10 minutes of unique footage, he's a pretty damn good quarterback.

You can b***h about his 2014 and 2015 seasons all you want, but those were horrible situations for any QB much less a relatively inexperienced one.

I'm not onboard anyone's train right now. I just say stop the hate and let the chips fall as they may. Chip Kelly is a capable coach and I trust his judgement. The best QB will be on the field leading the offense.

This is where we differ. Obviously, you judge his body of work by the team success. What I'm saying is that he was Never very good at pre snap reads, post snap reads, going through his progressions, seeing the whole field, and making quick decision adjustments to the play depending on defensive movements. It's not that he could do these things in 2012 and 2013, and only when the team got weaker, he didn't have time. Drill down into his personal performance, and it's clear to see he could Never do these things well. And today, it's clear he has been Completely incapable of getting Any better in any of these things. The only difference is that Harbaugh didn't require them, and built a simple read offense around him. Now that every other coach in the league requires these skills, and he knows he can't do it, he'd rather warm the bench and collect his $11.9, than bet on himself with a $7m salary and a Super Bowl team.

Kaep is not a first round prospect and was/is a project. to do what he has done is crazy.

This year is the first year he is receiving actual coaching from real offensive coaches.

Careful there, that means you are criticizing Harbaugh the great, lol!

I imagine this will piss off a couple of posters, but Scott Ostler said Kaepeenick should be third string:

http://www.sfchronicle.com/49ers/ostler/article/New-look-49ers-visit-old-home-as-QB-duel-continues-9135713.php?t=a77bff9f9d7d4f3860&cmpid=twitter-premium

Seems a bit extreme to me, but I am interested in what everyone thinks (with the exception of a couple of posters, that is).

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

Originally posted by BOI49er:
http://49ers.pressdemocrat.com/49ers-trKaaining-camp-report-day-9-return-kezar-stadium/

Kaeprrnick can't get passed an occasional second read, and can't make two reads on opposite sides of the field. He stares down his receivers. Is he even trying, or is he this bad?

He didn't bet on himself in a perfect Super Bowl situation in Denver for a pay cut to $7m, instead opting for a guaranteed $11.9m even if he finds himself sitting on his butt. I think he's done, and just trying to bank as much money before he's out the door. If he can milk an injury for next year too, he will. Watch out, Niners! His confidence is shot, and I don't think even he thinks he can compete. He can't read defenses nor make quick reads and adjustments, and the only guy that would let him get away with that and tell him he's great is now out of the league and in a league he has no eligibility.

Sad, but pretty well sums it up.

i mean if I was in his shoes I'd take the 5 mil this year too, then hope you look good enough in preseason to either have another team take a 1 year contract shot at you for '17. You should always take guaranteed money when its that high, that he doesn't believe in himself is bs.

Originally posted by BOI49er:

Originally posted by BleedsRedNGold:

Originally posted by BOI49er:
No we not, we talking about his whole body of work, and his confidence, and his effort, and his improvement in six years.

That body of work is pretty damn good. The selective amnesia of the Kap haters is typical of haters of all kinds. He passes the "YouTube Test" for me. Meaning that if he has a highlight reel over over 10 minutes of unique footage, he's a pretty damn good quarterback.

You can b***h about his 2014 and 2015 seasons all you want, but those were horrible situations for any QB much less a relatively inexperienced one.

I'm not onboard anyone's train right now. I just say stop the hate and let the chips fall as they may. Chip Kelly is a capable coach and I trust his judgement. The best QB will be on the field leading the offense.

This is where we differ. Obviously, you judge his body of work by the team success. What I'm saying is that he was Never very good at pre snap reads, post snap reads, going through his progressions, seeing the whole field, and making quick decision adjustments to the play depending on defensive movements. It's not that he could do these things in 2012 and 2013, and only when the team got weaker, he didn't have time. Drill down into his personal performance, and it's clear to see he could Never do these things well. And today, it's clear he has been Completely incapable of getting Any better in any of these things. The only difference is that Harbaugh didn't require them, and built a simple read offense around him. Now that every other coach in the league requires these skills, and he knows he can't do it, he'd rather warm the bench and collect his $11.9, than bet on himself with a $7m salary and a Super Bowl team.

Really?

I remember multiple film breakdown threads from JonnyDel and THL in 2013 and 2014 where he was going through multiple reads and progressions,a s well as changing to the right plays at the LOS based on the pre-snap read.

Undoubtedly something broke last season, I suspect it was confidence after 2 seasons of abysmal oline play where we were second in most sacks allowed in both seasons.

I think Kap's issue is anticipation in terms of throwing before a receiver comes open, but that should be less of an issue in Chip's system.

I'm also curious if any of the Kap critics would take Newton over Kap, because Newton has worse accuracy issues, is widely critiqued on reading the field and progressions but he's used in an offensive system tailored to him and it got him MVP and a Superbowl appearance, after he was slated for his performance in 2014.

Originally posted by BOI49er:
This is where we differ. Obviously, you judge his body of work by the team success. What I'm saying is that he was Never very good at pre snap reads, post snap reads, going through his progressions, seeing the whole field, and making quick decision adjustments to the play depending on defensive movements. It's not that he could do these things in 2012 and 2013, and only when the team got weaker, he didn't have time. Drill down into his personal performance, and it's clear to see he could Never do these things well. And today, it's clear he has been Completely incapable of getting Any better in any of these things. The only difference is that Harbaugh didn't require them, and built a simple read offense around him. Now that every other coach in the league requires these skills, and he knows he can't do it, he'd rather warm the bench and collect his $11.9, than bet on himself with a $7m salary and a Super Bowl team.

The thing is that he could. We've seen him progress through his reads when the play calls for it. My point is that no one really knew the scheme we were using and what decision-making capabilities it gave the QB. Maybe the majority of passing plays had an anointed receiver, we don't know. But we've seen even great QBs like Brady and Rodgers have their play regress with line issues. In early 2014 a common media narrative was that Tom Brady was on the decline, especially after they were blown out by the Chiefs on a Monday night. Then Belichek fixed the line issues and Brady returned to form.

No QB in the league operates in a bubble where he is expected to perform despite what's going on in the locker room, front-office and other positions on the field. In 2014 we saw this as plain as day when in the first Rams game Kap didn't get sacked once and shredded their defense. The next Rams game, he got sacked 8 or 9 times due to Kilgore being out and played horribly. It's hard to go through reads or get into rhythm when you're looking down instead of up.

I say the same thing about Blaine. He was thrown into a s**tty situation. He didn't have the benefit of a Brady or Rodgers who got to sit behind a good QB and watch and learn. He was thrown into the mix with a horrible team and expected to carry them. And lets not perpetuate the myth that Brady or Rodgers carried their teams without help. Both QBs were glorified game managers when they started out. The coaches were smart enough to take it easy on them and as they grew up in the same system, they became the QBs they are today. Without a decent o-line and a consistent running game, both QBs would suck.

Let's sit back and watch this competition and see how these QBs perform with a healthy running game, a stout oline and a real pro passing game. No need to denigrate one QB or another by cherry-picking games and stats.

Originally posted by BleedsRedNGold:

Originally posted by BOI49er:

This is where we differ. Obviously, you judge his body of work by the team success. What I'm saying is that he was Never very good at pre snap reads, post snap reads, going through his progressions, seeing the whole field, and making quick decision adjustments to the play depending on defensive movements. It's not that he could do these things in 2012 and 2013, and only when the team got weaker, he didn't have time. Drill down into his personal performance, and it's clear to see he could Never do these things well. And today, it's clear he has been Completely incapable of getting Any better in any of these things. The only difference is that Harbaugh didn't require them, and built a simple read offense around him. Now that every other coach in the league requires these skills, and he knows he can't do it, he'd rather warm the bench and collect his $11.9, than bet on himself with a $7m salary and a Super Bowl team.

The thing is that he could. We've seen him progress through his reads when the play calls for it. My point is that no one really knew the scheme we were using and what decision-making capabilities it gave the QB. Maybe the majority of passing plays had an anointed receiver, we don't know. But we've seen even great QBs like Brady and Rodgers have their play regress with line issues. In early 2014 a common media narrative was that Tom Brady was on the decline, especially after they were blown out by the Chiefs on a Monday night. Then Belichek fixed the line issues and Brady returned to form.

No QB in the league operates in a bubble where he is expected to perform despite what's going on in the locker room, front-office and other positions on the field. In 2014 we saw this as plain as day when in the first Rams game Kap didn't get sacked once and shredded their defense. The next Rams game, he got sacked 8 or 9 times due to Kilgore being out and played horribly. It's hard to go through reads or get into rhythm when you're looking down instead of up.

I say the same thing about Blaine. He was thrown into a s**tty situation. He didn't have the benefit of a Brady or Rodgers who got to sit behind a good QB and watch and learn. He was thrown into the mix with a horrible team and expected to carry them. And lets not perpetuate the myth that Brady or Rodgers carried their teams without help. Both QBs were glorified game managers when they started out. The coaches were smart enough to take it easy on them and as they grew up in the same system, they became the QBs they are today. Without a decent o-line and a consistent running game, both QBs would suck.

Let's sit back and watch this competition and see how these QBs perform with a healthy running game, a stout oline and a real pro passing game. No need to denigrate one QB or another by cherry-picking games and stats.

Originally posted by GEEK:
Basically my point is that Kap SHOULD outperform Gabbert in pre-season to start day 1 of the regular season. It's going to be our first real sample of his talent level.

Why would you say that? The fact that he just started throwing just a couple weeks ago and seems to be battling an injury to his throwing arm....I'm not so confident he'll outperform Gabbert. Probably be around the same.

Originally posted by mojave45:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by mojave45:
If Kaepernick was such a perfect fit for Kelly's offense as his fanatical fans believe there shouldn't even be a competition. I mean here he is, until mid last season our undisputed starter since he took over, and he has to compete with a failed QB,that was almost out of the league. To hear his supporters tell it, the only way Kap could not start is some dark scheme involving nefarious "politics" .

My belief is that if he doesn't start, it is because he lacks the repetitive accuracy and quick decision making Kelly will require.

I even heard some whining that he couldn't be expected to fix all those issues in a "few weeks" under Kelly. I agree. He should have been working on those issues for a few years.

There really shouldn't be a competition. As the long term starter Kap should know the quirks and habits of his team, have a deep rapport with his receivers and RB(Hyde), and be well respected and embraced by his team mates. If he isn't, and doesn't have those things nailed down by now, that isn't politics, that is just sad.

I know his followers are scrambling to cover all the ridiculous statements they made during the past off season, where basically every person except him is to blame, but there is no one to blame but Kap himself if he loses the head to head competition.

Kelly may well choose Kaepernick over Gabbert. Given their respective career numbers it shouldn't even be a dicussion. The fact that it is not only a discussion,but one that is coming down to a preseason decision should be troubling to all 49er fans.

I don't personally believe Gabbert has shown what it takes to be the QB of the future for us, so it is a bad place to be thinking Kap is at the level where he hasn't beaten this guy out by now.

I hear what you're saying and I get it for sure (and yes we disagree on this front it's all good )....I will continue to state he's been throwing the football for what week and a half after not being able to do so for 7 months and 3 surgeries.

Accuracy is important but we saw with Foles/Bradford Chip's offense makes a QB more accurate (look at Philly numbers vs Rams). As far as rapport goes who says he doesn't I mean the practice before yesterday he had a great outing throwing for like 4 TDs I believe.

Nothing wrong with a QB competition IMO.

I agree there is nothing wrong with a competion. My comments about that were a general response to the snark I get from a couple of posters when any criticism at all is made of Kap, and certainly does not include your posts.

I don't know that Kap does or doesn't have that rapport with his team mates, he may well have, but sitting here as a fan I have heard far too much discussion about it to dismiss it out of hand.

Yes, Kelly has made other QB's look more accurate. He may be able to do that, he may choose differently. A couple of weeks will tell.

I am not one of the fans that believe Gabbert is a slam dunk answer at QB. I have concerns with both of them. I come off more critical about Kap because when I post anything critical his attack squad gets involved. Then I respond in kind.

I would be very happy if it turns out that your faith in Kap is proven to be correct! That would be good for us. The difference is that I won't believe it until I see it.

On the flip side, Gabbert can't beat out a guy that just started throwing after 3 surgeries and all of the weight loss. Gabbert got all of the off season throws and he is still struggling to complete passes at the same level of the QB that missed everything and still may not be 100% healthy as he couldn't even fully participate in the last mini camp or OTA's.

Bottom line, we have all seen what a healthy Kap can do as well as a healthy Gabbert. I would take a healthy Kap over Gabbert all day!

Originally posted by Blindfury:

Originally posted by GEEK:
Basically my point is that Kap SHOULD outperform Gabbert in pre-season to start day 1 of the regular season. It's going to be our first real sample of his talent level.

Why would you say that? The fact that he just started throwing just a couple weeks ago and seems to be battling an injury to his throwing arm....I'm not so confident he'll outperform Gabbert. Probably be around the same.

Optimistic perspective: maybe they are both really good which explains why both are performing the same.

Originally posted by BleedsRedNGold:
The thing is that he could. We've seen him progress through his reads when the play calls for it. My point is that no one really knew the scheme we were using and what decision-making capabilities it gave the QB. Maybe the majority of passing plays had an anointed receiver, we don't know. But we've seen even great QBs like Brady and Rodgers have their play regress with line issues. In early 2014 a common media narrative was that Tom Brady was on the decline, especially after they were blown out by the Chiefs on a Monday night. Then Belichek fixed the line issues and Brady returned to form.

No QB in the league operates in a bubble where he is expected to perform despite what's going on in the locker room, front-office and other positions on the field. In 2014 we saw this as plain as day when in the first Rams game Kap didn't get sacked once and shredded their defense. The next Rams game, he got sacked 8 or 9 times due to Kilgore being out and played horribly. It's hard to go through reads or get into rhythm when you're looking down instead of up.

I say the same thing about Blaine. He was thrown into a s**tty situation. He didn't have the benefit of a Brady or Rodgers who got to sit behind a good QB and watch and learn. He was thrown into the mix with a horrible team and expected to carry them. And lets not perpetuate the myth that Brady or Rodgers carried their teams without help. Both QBs were glorified game managers when they started out. The coaches were smart enough to take it easy on them and as they grew up in the same system, they became the QBs they are today. Without a decent o-line and a consistent running game, both QBs would suck.

Let's sit back and watch this competition and see how these QBs perform with a healthy running game, a stout oline and a real pro passing game. No need to denigrate one QB or another by cherry-picking games and stats.

Agreed. Only thing is Rodgers was never anything like a game manager though. Brady, yes...not Rogers though. Good point though...we look at some of the successful QB's right now. They all had the benefit of good coaching, a system that fit them and an organization committed to building around them.

Originally posted by mojave45:

Don't want to disrupt the flow of this, but was thinking about a couple if things you mentioned and what johhnydel said.

I don't think we would see more running from Kap, because as it was pointed out, that is based on the read by the QB and not by design, but yes it would seem that Kap would be more dangerous when he does run. Based on making the correct reads, which is a concern for me, but we can disagree there.

The accuracy issue... I believe your career numbers on Kap vs Gabbert, but would think that the only really fair comparison is last year when they were both hurried and so evaluated fairly equally. Kap has had superior teams around him up to that point so if his numbers weren't the better ones I would be surprised.

But back to the important thing you posted out... In Kelly's system, if Kap runs it correctly, abd his runs are more limited and his passing accuracy is where it should be, therefore runs being more of a surprise, they should be highly effective. This is where Steve Young was able to change his emphasis away from being ready to take it and run every play, and instead emphasized his passing, making fewer runs more devastating.


Or am I missing the point?

I think you and jonnydel always bring up good points and this is a solid discussion. I do see Kap running more simply on the fact that they will be out of the shotgun exclusively unlike in the past. Kap might not be the most accurate if you're going off a 2015 season but I don't put stock into most of our players good or bad (horrible coaching straight s**t show last yr). Blaine's numbers in this league have been piss poor for years and throwing a bunch of check downs doesn't equal being more accurate IMO.

You bring up Kap having a superior team but do you think Blaine would have won more games or done the things Kap did with the same team around him? I sure as heck don't think so.

I don't hate the idea of Blaine in fact I'll love it if he can play to the level of his draft pick...I can't see him taking the team down the field if we are down and coming back just can't see it. We've seen Kap do it. I'll root for both but prefer the upside of Kap in this system vs the "safe" play of Blaine