Colin Kaepernick Thread

Originally posted by WRATHman44:

Originally posted by sevenup3000:
The sad thing about it is that if Kaepernick was Tannehill, or Ryan, or Stafford, or Cousins...both the franchise AND fanbase would be more than willing to be patient because at the end of the day...Kaepernick would be "their guy" and they would be rooting for him to succeed, personally. That is what separates Cousins from RGIII; a Kaepernick from Gabbert; a Bridgewater from Carr.

For some odd reason, their fanbases only want to be associated with RGIII, Kaepernick, Bridgewater, Newton, Wilson, etc. IF THEY ARE WINNING AND PLAYING WELL. The minute they are not...their fan bases are completely done with them. They are not INVESTED in the INDIVIDUAL. They do not particularly desire for them to be successful, and already have their preconceived notions regarding them, which is dramatically different from the way Cousins, Tannehill, Cutler, Luck, Carr etc. fan base feel about them. Despite the fact it could be argued that the former has accomplished 10x more than the later.

And the same will hold true for Winston. Let Tampa Bay fail to get to the playoffs next year. I promise you there will be LOUD voices in Tampa Bay screaming to bench Winston...the same as Kaepernick.

How many games do you think Kaepernick would last if he were Alex Smith in the first part of his career? What about Carr? Tannehill? Eli Manning?

I really hope the season of RGIII and Kaepernick, and how quickly and decisively their fan bases turned the backs on them, allowed FAR FAR greater leeway for their less talented, less accomplished backups, really opens a lot of eyes--both NFL fans and NFL players.

You appear to be very cautiously playing the race card. All of the QBS receiving patience in your example are white, all of those that you assert have not (or will not, lol) received a fair degree of patience are not.

I find this assertion lazy and weak. SF fans sh1t on Steve Young for years, and doesn't get any whiter than BYU. Obviously, he deserved more patience than he received from this fanbase. He was the best QB in the league, and he still got crapped on by 49er fans who thought Joe won a SB everytime he picked up a football.

There were as many 49er fans killing Alex Smith than there have been piling on Kap. Attitude matters, too. I think Kap's a real good (but shy) dude who's trying too damn hard to look cool and hard, and he comes off like a childish a55hole. Fans put up with it while he was winning, but that sh1t grates while the team is losing and fans want answers.

Not sure what "playing the race card" is. I have come to notice it is often thrown out by certain people as a lazy defense when confronted with uncomfortable truths. I've literally heard law school students claim the professor was "playing the race card" when discussing the origins of the 14th amendment, or why we have Fair Housing Laws...

Anyways, am I explicitly pointing out the differing experiences of white and black QBs as it relates to their fan bases? Yes I am.

I will say it again (less "cautiously"). No, there could never be a black Jay Cutler, Alex Smith, Ryan Tannehill, Matt Stafford, Joe Flacco, or Matt Ryan. They would have long been benched and cut. That is simply the truth.

Look around the NFL, do you see a black starting QB that is not either: In the playoffs, a rookie, or in Taylor's case a first year player? And even in Taylor's case a significant portion of Bills fans want to draft a QB to replace him. A black QB given time to learn, grow, and adjust simply does not exist prior to their fan base jumping down the coaches throat to bench said QB.

I'll wait.

Difference between Cam and Kaep is that Cam has command of both the offense and huddle. Cam is a little better in the pocket but besides that the main difference is Cam has the players attention, while Kaep had seemed to lose that the last 2 years.

When Cam talks players listen
When Kaep talks he's just echoing the coaches orders

Originally posted by Ninertex:

Originally posted by BleedsRedNGold:
Sems that one play vs. the Rams have some people messed up about Kap. Do we really know the context behind hat happened.

Even the great Peyton Manning has 3 interception games, and Tom Brady misses open receivers all the time we are dealing with imperfect men.
The regression is part of the development, the failure to overcome flaws is bad coaching, 2015 was a team without a vision. I would call for a mulligan this year.

That is complete garbage and only makes sense to Kaepernick excuse makers. You think Deandre Jordan is a bad free thrower because Doc Rivers is a bad coach? There are intangibles that a successful NFL quarterback has that Kap doesn't, you can't coach field vision.

Originally posted by jreff22:
I never said Gabbert was a long term answer either. But Kap was designated the franchise QB, he should be functional.

Maybe he'll be functional again. Hey, it's even possible he could be good. He was pretty spectacular for a while - people who think it was all about his legs are just wrong - he had excellent accuracy at one time and he was never what you could call a 'turnover machine.' Up until last season, he had one of the lowest int ratios in the league.

I don't really have a preference here other than the one who Kelly thinks is performing the best. I think it's actually possible that Gabbert fits better, but we'll see. If Kaepernick does end up fitting better, everyone is going to have to worry about these 80 yard scrambles again. But, Gabbert is no slouch in the running department either.

Originally posted by jreff22:

I never said Gabbert was a long term answer either. But Kap was designated the franchise QB, he should be functional.

I wasn't implying that you were saying that. My point was not even a "functional" qb could fix the mess we had last year.

Originally posted by BOI49er:

Originally posted by WRATHman44:

Originally posted by sevenup3000:
The sad thing about it is that if Kaepernick was Tannehill, or Ryan, or Stafford, or Cousins...both the franchise AND fanbase would be more than willing to be patient because at the end of the day...Kaepernick would be "their guy" and they would be rooting for him to succeed, personally. That is what separates Cousins from RGIII; a Kaepernick from Gabbert; a Bridgewater from Carr.

For some odd reason, their fanbases only want to be associated with RGIII, Kaepernick, Bridgewater, Newton, Wilson, etc. IF THEY ARE WINNING AND PLAYING WELL. The minute they are not...their fan bases are completely done with them. They are not INVESTED in the INDIVIDUAL. They do not particularly desire for them to be successful, and already have their preconceived notions regarding them, which is dramatically different from the way Cousins, Tannehill, Cutler, Luck, Carr etc. fan base feel about them. Despite the fact it could be argued that the former has accomplished 10x more than the later.

And the same will hold true for Winston. Let Tampa Bay fail to get to the playoffs next year. I promise you there will be LOUD voices in Tampa Bay screaming to bench Winston...the same as Kaepernick.

How many games do you think Kaepernick would last if he were Alex Smith in the first part of his career? What about Carr? Tannehill? Eli Manning?

I really hope the season of RGIII and Kaepernick, and how quickly and decisively their fan bases turned the backs on them, allowed FAR FAR greater leeway for their less talented, less accomplished backups, really opens a lot of eyes--both NFL fans and NFL players.

You appear to be very cautiously playing the race card. All of the QBS receiving patience in your example are white, all of those that you assert have not (or will not, lol) received a fair degree of patience are not.

I find this assertion lazy and weak. SF fans sh1t on Steve Young for years, and doesn't get any whiter than BYU. Obviously, he deserved more patience than he received from this fanbase. He was the best QB in the league, and he still got crapped on by 49er fans who thought Joe won a SB everytime he picked up a football.

There were as many 49er fans killing Alex Smith than there have been piling on Kap. Attitude matters, too. I think Kap's a real good (but shy) dude who's trying too damn hard to look cool and hard, and he comes off like a childish a55hole. Fans put up with it while he was winning, but that sh1t grates while the team is losing and fans want answers.

The best indication of how much more time and experience will help is not how much time a quarterback has, but how much progress he's making. Guys like Cousins, Winston, Bridgewater, Wilson, Newton and Carr all showed significant improvement early on. Guys like Cutler, Kaepernick, and RGIII never do.

It all gets back to Bill Walsh's number one required trait: athletic instincts. Not athleticism. Athletic instincts means understanding what those fellows on the other side of the ball are doing, and quickly knowing what you need to do to counter that. The guys named above have all been accurately described as only seeing half the field, as you have to keep their reads simple, or have a spectacular OL to give them time to figure it out. To be successful, they all require a great defense and running game. It's a matter of aptitude, for which more time will do little, not ethnic heritage.

Actually fans were calling for Newton's head 2013. Before the season began the analyst were saying the same things they say about Kaep now, they said Cam was a one read qb who can only run and throw the deep ball. However the biggest difference with Cam and Kaep is ownership. Jerry Richardson when he drafted Cam had a talk with him and let him know the scrutiny he would endure and not to lose focus with external happenings etc. This showed that Cam was his guy, he invested in and stuck by. Kaep had the complete opposite just like Alex did, the ownership with the Niners is truly what have you done for me and rightfully so its a business and its their choice they can run it however they deem necessary. The fact Carolina has stuck with Cam speaks volumes about their organization, now Kaep has shown promise he has shown he can play qb in the NFL now has he done it consistently? No and for those reasons he was benched however if we give Alex his just due which was deserved then we should be open to the same with Kaep. Im not saying anoint him the starter but allow him to come in and compete. He and Gabbert's numbers were very similar so its not like there was a huge gap in improved play. This year reminded me of the Mike Nolan years, no offensive philosophy, no o-line, etc.

As for the other qbs mentioned we cant hide the fact that certain qbs are given more chances than others. But the logical argument of showing improvement we can simply point to Jay Cutler, he puts up a ton of fantasy stats but throws a ton of INTs yet he doesnt get the cant read a defense argument or isnt a competent passer, his stats dont get dissected as to when/why his passing totals were so high. Andrew Luck is a good qb no doubt but each year he also throws a ton of INTs yet his TD/Int ratio is never really discussed. Russell Wilson hasnt exactly been the perfect fantasy qb but he gets the job done and has demonstrated his propensity to win. I do believe certain players get more chances than others however.

Originally posted by BobS:

Originally posted by Ninertex:

Originally posted by BobS:

Originally posted by Ninertex:

23 months back Kaepernick had just won nfc championship, and the same guys dissing him were calling him a franchise qb
I can't understand how the bandwagon trolls can go from supportING a qb to calling him a bust when he hasn't even had the chance to develop.
It takes 5 years for a qb to develop of course he misses receiver, of course he can't read a defense he is a project qb that needs to develop. Doesn't mean he can't play just means he needs better coaching and more patience from the franchise and fans.
His early success, hurt his future,may have gotten a ego and bad coaching hurt his development but doesn't mean a guy forgets to play overnight

He never knew how to play in the first place. His early success was based on his running and defense's fear of his running, and his flaws were not all known.

I agree completely he never knew how too play got away on pure talent, my point exactly, he is not developed. He deserves his time to develop. He is a immense talent. Willie mcginest said he is mariota on steroids and I agree.

I would take him over Ken dorsey, Tim rattay, Shaun hill, jt osullivan, Trent dilfer Cody picket.

My case in point is a qb has to develop, look at how Matt ryan has struggled, he has tons of talent around him but you don't give up on talent.
No way a rookie comes in and is successful, build with what you got its going to be a 3 yr process.

But you would have to be crazy or ignorant to give up on a talent like Kaepernick.

That is a glowing endorsement, and along the same lines I would rather lose a finger in an industrial accident instead of both arms.

My point is a talented qb is hard to come by San Fran lasted 10 miserable years before kaep. Ask browns Texans jets etc

Those qb I mentioned were actually our starters before kaep, I didn't make it up or pick the worst group of qb s, many of you had hope in those guys, and to give up on him over bad coaching and impatience is ridiculous.

Originally posted by BobS:

Originally posted by Ninertex:

Originally posted by BleedsRedNGold:

Sems that one play vs. the Rams have some people messed up about Kap. Do we really know the context behind hat happened.

Even the great Peyton Manning has 3 interception games, and Tom Brady misses open receivers all the time we are dealing with imperfect men.
The regression is part of the development, the failure to overcome flaws is bad coaching, 2015 was a team without a vision. I would call for a mulligan this year.

That is complete garbage and only makes sense to Kaepernick excuse makers. You think Deandre Jordan is a bad free thrower because Doc Rivers is a bad coach? There are intangibles that a successful NFL quarterback has that Kap doesn't, you can't coach field vision.

You develop field vision.same thing was said about Steve young and he became one of the greatest passers after he was coached and given time. So yeah I guess you can coach vision, what you can't coach is talent, speed height, and that's what kaep has

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Count Middlekauff among those curious to see how Kelly works with maligned quarterback Colin Kaepernick. "(Kelly) was big on accuracy and decision making," Middlekauff said. "Those two things, for Colin, are in the weakness category."

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/49ers/2016/01/18/sports-talk-radio-host-has-keen-scouting-report-on-kellys-prototypical-players/

Don't read 2 much into that Chip Kelly made Sam Bradford, Nick Foles and Mark Sanchez look good not to mention each QB completion percentage went up in Kelly's system

If kaep has to sit behind gabbert for 2 years and develop I still don't give up on his upside way too much talent to overlook.
He has Michael Jordan type talent if he can ever get it right.
When he was drafted he reminded me of Randall Cunningham, he could of been greatest ever, but impatient owners bad coaching, idiot fan base, wasted his talent.

Originally posted by SF9er05:

Originally posted by BOI49er:

Originally posted by WRATHman44:

Originally posted by sevenup3000:

The sad thing about it is that if Kaepernick was Tannehill, or Ryan, or Stafford, or Cousins...both the franchise AND fanbase would be more than willing to be patient because at the end of the day...Kaepernick would be "their guy" and they would be rooting for him to succeed, personally. That is what separates Cousins from RGIII; a Kaepernick from Gabbert; a Bridgewater from Carr.

For some odd reason, their fanbases only want to be associated with RGIII, Kaepernick, Bridgewater, Newton, Wilson, etc. IF THEY ARE WINNING AND PLAYING WELL. The minute they are not...their fan bases are completely done with them. They are not INVESTED in the INDIVIDUAL. They do not particularly desire for them to be successful, and already have their preconceived notions regarding them, which is dramatically different from the way Cousins, Tannehill, Cutler, Luck, Carr etc. fan base feel about them. Despite the fact it could be argued that the former has accomplished 10x more than the later.

And the same will hold true for Winston. Let Tampa Bay fail to get to the playoffs next year. I promise you there will be LOUD voices in Tampa Bay screaming to bench Winston...the same as Kaepernick.

How many games do you think Kaepernick would last if he were Alex Smith in the first part of his career? What about Carr? Tannehill? Eli Manning?

I really hope the season of RGIII and Kaepernick, and how quickly and decisively their fan bases turned the backs on them, allowed FAR FAR greater leeway for their less talented, less accomplished backups, really opens a lot of eyes--both NFL fans and NFL players.

You appear to be very cautiously playing the race card. All of the QBS receiving patience in your example are white, all of those that you assert have not (or will not, lol) received a fair degree of patience are not.

I find this assertion lazy and weak. SF fans sh1t on Steve Young for years, and doesn't get any whiter than BYU. Obviously, he deserved more patience than he received from this fanbase. He was the best QB in the league, and he still got crapped on by 49er fans who thought Joe won a SB everytime he picked up a football.

There were as many 49er fans killing Alex Smith than there have been piling on Kap. Attitude matters, too. I think Kap's a real good (but shy) dude who's trying too damn hard to look cool and hard, and he comes off like a childish a55hole. Fans put up with it while he was winning, but that sh1t grates while the team is losing and fans want answers.

The best indication of how much more time and experience will help is not how much time a quarterback has, but how much progress he's making. Guys like Cousins, Winston, Bridgewater, Wilson, Newton and Carr all showed significant improvement early on. Guys like Cutler, Kaepernick, and RGIII never do.

It all gets back to Bill Walsh's number one required trait: athletic instincts. Not athleticism. Athletic instincts means understanding what those fellows on the other side of the ball are doing, and quickly knowing what you need to do to counter that. The guys named above have all been accurately described as only seeing half the field, as you have to keep their reads simple, or have a spectacular OL to give them time to figure it out. To be successful, they all require a great defense and running game. It's a matter of aptitude, for which more time will do little, not ethnic heritage.

Actually fans were calling for Newton's head 2013. Before the season began the analyst were saying the same things they say about Kaep now, they said Cam was a one read qb who can only run and throw the deep ball. However the biggest difference with Cam and Kaep is ownership. Jerry Richardson when he drafted Cam had a talk with him and let him know the scrutiny he would endure and not to lose focus with external happenings etc. This showed that Cam was his guy, he invested in and stuck by. Kaep had the complete opposite just like Alex did, the ownership with the Niners is truly what have you done for me and rightfully so its a business and its their choice they can run it however they deem necessary. The fact Carolina has stuck with Cam speaks volumes about their organization, now Kaep has shown promise he has shown he can play qb in the NFL now has he done it consistently? No and for those reasons he was benched however if we give Alex his just due which was deserved then we should be open to the same with Kaep. Im not saying anoint him the starter but allow him to come in and compete. He and Gabbert's numbers were very similar so its not like there was a huge gap in improved play. This year reminded me of the Mike Nolan years, no offensive philosophy, no o-line, etc.

As for the other qbs mentioned we cant hide the fact that certain qbs are given more chances than others. But the logical argument of showing improvement we can simply point to Jay Cutler, he puts up a ton of fantasy stats but throws a ton of INTs yet he doesnt get the cant read a defense argument or isnt a competent passer, his stats dont get dissected as to when/why his passing totals were so high. Andrew Luck is a good qb no doubt but each year he also throws a ton of INTs yet his TD/Int ratio is never really discussed. Russell Wilson hasnt exactly been the perfect fantasy qb but he gets the job done and has demonstrated his propensity to win. I do believe certain players get more chances than others however.

I disagree with most of this, especially that Cutler isn't widely recognized as a quarterback you only want to ask he read half the field, and if by Kaepernick showing promise you mean progress.

Regardless, in the cap era, you can not pay a quarterback franchise money and have him compete for the starting job going into a season. You have to either plan on him being your starter, or you need to look to unload his cap hit to the extent possible.

As I was watching the Panthers-Seahawk game yesterday, I had to wonder how good either Kaepernick or Gabbert could be if they had the kind of time Cam Newton has behind the line. Sometimes it seemed like Newton was just standing there looking around for a long time before he threw the ball. What an incredible O-line the Panthers have! Don't get me wrong - I think Cam Newton is real good and I misjudged him early on. I thought he was pretty much almost all hype, but I was wrong.

The fact still remains, though, that Newton gets great protection compared to ANY QB the Niners have had in a long time.

Originally posted by crake49:

As I was watching the Panthers-Seahawk game yesterday, I had to wonder how good either Kaepernick or Gabbert could be if they had the kind of time Cam Newton has behind the line. Sometimes it seemed like Newton was just standing there looking around for a long time before he threw the ball. What an incredible O-line the Panthers have! Don't get me wrong - I think Cam Newton is real good and I misjudged him early on. I thought he was pretty much almost all hype, but I was wrong.

The fact still remains, though, that Newton gets great protection compared to ANY QB the Niners have had in a long time.

That's the truth! Our o line went from good/overrated to just plain terrible.

Originally posted by Irish40Niner:
That's the truth! Our o line went from good/overrated to just plain terrible.

Even a few years ago when the Niners had a top-5 rushing line, it wasn't that good at pass protection. That Panthers line does both really well.

Originally posted by crake49:
As I was watching the Panthers-Seahawk game yesterday, I had to wonder how good either Kaepernick or Gabbert could be if they had the kind of time Cam Newton has behind the line. Sometimes it seemed like Newton was just standing there looking around for a long time before he threw the ball. What an incredible O-line the Panthers have! Don't get me wrong - I think Cam Newton is real good and I misjudged him early on. I thought he was pretty much almost all hype, but I was wrong.

The fact still remains, though, that Newton gets great protection compared to ANY QB the Niners have had in a long time.

Cam this year to Cam previous years is not even the same guy. A light really went on for him this year, in attitude, control of his offense, accuracy throwing the ball. He literally looks like a different man in the same jersey. It is one of the reasons I think it would be wise to hold on to Kap for one more year, there are a lot of similar qualities there in fact in some regards Cam was worse. Get him some protection, get him a coach that understands what he does well and doesn't force him into situations that magnify his weaknesses and see what you have. Now that his contract is down to a reasonable figure there isn't anything on the street that I would say is worth signing over him. We already have a backup plan in Gabbert and maybe we can draft a back up plan to the back up plan just to be sure.