49ers Offensive Line

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Dan Feeney starting over Forest Lamp in LA. I'd look into what's up with that. Lamp has been injured and a disappointment in LA so far. Change of scenery might be good

Same with Corbett in Cleveland

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Well thank god we're not running the Bo Shembechler run offense.

Having said that, the *kind* of runs that Kyle likes to do is also important. And that is the outside ZBS, where speed and athleticism is a premium.

So Kyle and Benton have to look first to guys that can run fast, then their agility. I think most other non-outside ZBS teams are looking for the opposit.

I think that impacts a lot of fans perception as to what a good OLineman is for the team vs the coaching staff. I think fans are looking for that top of the line guy that can bench press Mount Everest and run like a gazelle. When it's the opposit that Kyle wants.

Key point: It is all about the kind of offense a team is running.

A power-running team doesn't need to have very agile, quick OL, however, they must have a QB that gets rid of the ball quickly because a bulldozer can't PP against Von Miller. That fits the NE model.

OTOH, teams that run an outside ZBS offense must have quick, agile guys to pull and move, and that same type of guy is more likely to be a better pass protector as well.

I would suggest there are more guys in the first category coming out of college than the second. In any case, there clearly is not enough of both to fit all the needs, hence the league-wide conversation about offensive linemen.

Agree about the scarcity of OLine talent for every team. And I think if you look at Staley (former TE), and how well he fits Kyle's offense - and McGlinchy (a former basketball player) then go backwards and find athletes and convert them to the OL, I think that's a legit approach.

How many times have you seen DE's being moved to the LB position? Why can't TE's be moved to the OLine in certain circumstances. Having said that, it takes a player who's willing to do a position change *and* put some legit hard work in there to change their body to become bigger and retain as much as possible, their footspeed and agility. Not an easy thing to do.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

This is a key point by DJ, in that not only is the OL conversation going on league wide, look at bellichek. Season starts in 7 days and he just swapped out 3 OLs. Yikes. So yes, it is fair to say, we ain't the only ones worried about our OL. Wonder what they are saying in PATs land? Can you even imagine what would be said here if 1 week before season, JL traded for 3 OLs? Think on that one a moment ...or two. Cripes this place would be on fire. So at least, we didn't do that. What's fascinating is that the best HC over the last 20 yrs would do that.

He was either desperate ...or kept hoping his OL would improve...and it didn't.

The odd thing is he had a chance at Risner, who we passed on instead of Deebo. So either BB fell asleep at the switch, or thot he would pull another Trent Brown move which landed him another SB ring. But Trent brown moves don't come every yr, and bellichek may have thot , "well , did it with TRent Brown last yr, might as well do the same this yr."...thing is...there WERE NO Trent Browns this yr. And it sounds like BB needed 3 of them. Still, an astounding move, trading for 3 OLs a week before the season. Could the great one have lost his touch?

Sounds like Brady won't be in any better shape than JimmyG is...as far as OLs go. Man, what a fascinating yr this is turning out to be.

To your point that there was no Trent Brown deal for Bill Bellicheat this year, I think maybe the fact that he won the super bowl kind of prejudices other teams from helping them out? I mean Houston Texans are a GM disaster (look at the Seadderall Clowny Deal) and Bellicheat couldn't take advantage of that, in a sense? wow.

I think, one of the things Bellicheat does so well is that he is able to recharge and rebuild after every super bowl. He doesn't go for super bowls *every* year, he kind of spaces it out - in a sense - so that he can use the Free Agency and Trades to reload his team. One year he looses Chris Long, and then he develops his other pass rushers and wins the super bowl again the next year or the year after.

What Bill does so well is talent evaluation and his ability to change his system (offense and defense) in subtle ways to really enhance the available talent in his team.

It's my hope that Kyle's advantage of being able to take UDFA's and make them legit NFL stars is an advantage as good or better than Bellicheat's abiltiy to be able to get has beens (like Trent Brown) to reconstitute their talent and make them better. I think it starts with player cuture, but also Kyle's ability to talent evaluate. Until some coach in the NFL can equal Bellicheat's ability talent evaluate -- Bellicheat is going to contiue to win super bowls. My hope is that Kyle can get there and unseat that cheater.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by libertyforever:

Originally posted by NCommand:

I don't think collectively, anybody thinks our OL is "bad." Probably rank around in the low 20's personally. It is bad at the things it needs to be great at to properly run the offense Kyle wants except zone blocking to set up play action - really good at that run blocking. But yeah, Chargers have been pounded with OL injuries and poor personnel moves there and it always catches up to them despite how explosive their offense can be at times.

In the 2016-2017 season, what was so great about the Falcons offensive line? That Shanahan offense led the league in scoring and yards per play.

You'd have to research that and find out vs. assuming. I did notice last year Atlanta gave up a truck load of QB hits too and had similar Football Outsiders rankings. Then again, they were 7-9 and didn't make the playoffs either. Line play can change in spurts too. The NE line was pretty average for a while but were just lights out in the playoffs.

Maybe this system lends itself to more QB hits save for LAR.

2018 LAR are our goal for this OL in this system. They just lost a key G though so let's see if they drop off too now.

You have to research and find out vs assuming that the OL needs to be great at certain things to have a great Shanahan offense.

Originally posted by libertyforever:

You have to research and find out vs assuming that the OL needs to be great at certain things to have a great Shanahan offense.

Learn to read. I clearly outlined what they DO need to do if Kyle wants to have a wide open offense. The exact things LAR did do last year. As a unit, they played outstanding in these areas and it showed. Better coaching? Better development? Better talent? More chemistry? All of the above?

You can decide why that was but that should be our standard.

Originally posted by libertyforever:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by ninerfan4life:

For those of you who think our oline is bad

#Chargers Week 1 Offensive Line:

LT Trent Scott (2nd-year UDFA, 125 career snaps)
LG Dan Feeney (PFF's No. 80 OG out of 81 last yr)
C Mike Pouncey (No. 29 out of 39 centers)
RG Michael Schofield (Negatively graded in both pass & run block)
RT Sam Tevi (No. 78 out of 80 OTs)

— Evan Silva (@evansilva) September 2, 2019

I don't think collectively, anybody thinks our OL is "bad." Probably rank around in the low 20's personally. It is bad at the things it needs to be great at to properly run the offense Kyle wants except zone blocking to set up play action - really good at that run blocking. But yeah, Chargers have been pounded with OL injuries and poor personnel moves there and it always catches up to them despite how explosive their offense can be at times.

In the 2016-2017 season, what was so great about the Falcons offensive line? That Shanahan offense led the league in scoring and yards per play.

I am pretty sure NCommand meant the OL has to be great in PP. However the Falcons OL gave up 106 QB hits in 2016. That is no way great in PP. Mediocre at best. The Falcons still was great if the the best offense that year. But NCommand somehow complains that our OL should be the priority and is the biggest issue.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

I think the LAR come back to earth for two reasons; 1) loss of guard talent and 2) Hoodie's defensive game plan will be replicated.

I hadn't thought about 2. Copycat league. Good point. I haven't kept up with their transactions on the OL. Anyone know who they lost and who they brought in?

What guard talent did they have? Saffold wasn't some amazing guard until McVay got there. Sullivan wasn't known as a quality center until McVay either (currently out of a job).

One of the reasons BB stuffed McVay during the SB was because he couldn't run the ball.

You can ascertain how or why but in all the meaningful OL stats, they dominated us and it wasn't close. Person and Saffold could be graded identical in PFF but where it counts, it was night and day. Results speak for themselves.

If anything, it makes your case. You don't need 5 1st round picks or need to spend a gazillion dollars in FA.

You need to have taken evaluators who can find OL who excel at not giving up a ton of hits and kill shots, allow a ton of stuffed runs and can run block in the RZ and zone block very well, you're good. In fact, you're a top unit.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by libertyforever:

You have to research and find out vs assuming that the OL needs to be great at certain things to have a great Shanahan offense.

Learn to read. I clearly outlined what they DO need to do if Kyle wants to have a wide open offense. The exact things LAR did do last year. As a unit, they played outstanding in these areas and it showed. Better coaching? Better development? Better talent? More chemistry? All of the above?

You can decide why that was but that should be our standard.

Outline is not the same as research. Learn to read and be respectful. The 2016 Shanahan offense can be our standard too.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

Originally posted by dj43:
We all know that replacing Joe Staley is in our near-term future. How? When? We don't know.

I am going to suggest the FO has moved on that. Here is why I think that:

What has made Staley so good for so long is that he is really a bulked-up TE. He had the agility/footwork of a TE coming out of college. He added enough muscle to play the power game when needed. However, the key to his game is his feet. It not only works in PP but is ideal for outside ZBS.

So, the 49ers went looking for a converted TE that had good footwork and now needs to build into the pro game. With the signing of Ryan Pope to the PS, the 49ers now have two guys that fit the Staley mold. The other guy is Daniel Brunskill. Both are former TEs. The scouting report on Brunskill is that he has better feet than Pope but needs to add lower body strength to make power moves. That is nearly identical to Staley. The difference with Brunskill is that while Staley had multiple years at TE in college, Brunskill only has one. However, he showed great promise in that one year.

Pope is similar but according to scouting reports, does not have the foot skills of Brunskill. However, he has a bit more power. The choices made by Shanahan's staff confirms that Brunskill is ahead of Pope, but both have potential for the team.

In both cases, there is a pattern that has shown success and fits the Shanahan offense better than some bulldozer-type brought in just to fill a back-up roster spot. Now that all the camp fodder is gone, and reps are more concentrated, expect both of these guys to continue to improve and fill a legit role on the team.

Terrific post , DJ. Think about this...two studs at OT that can move, (with Brunskill and Pope in the pipeline, and both like Joe S in a former life, played TE.), added to 4 TEs, who are all good blockers, kittle being the exception as a 1st class blocker and best receiving TE in the league,, added to Au Jus and Hurd, who both can both block, run and catch passes.....and what do you have?

It sounds like a machine that blocks well, catches, well, runs well, paired with an OC who has no equal in today's game, and ends up being a bunch of heavies that can move, block, catch, and run. But they aren't Trent Brown heavies. They are in the fast but sturdy group, which makes it sound like an O none of us have seen before.

Really ,we have the equivalent of 6 TEs, all blockers, and 4 of which are known as good receivers. We also have 2 OTs who can move and block. Then we have a WR who is a TE and RB, plus a FB who can block like a TE , run like a RB and catch like a WR.

Now i ask you: what does this sound like in the very early beginnings? RZ? Goal line? I just don't see those as problems anymore. Sure there will be exceptions, but...when the RZ Defense loads the box we will have 4 guys on the field who can block or run...or receive a pass.

But mainly, if the above is true, this is starting to sound like the beginning of a juggernaut...and one not easily stopped. And strange as it seems it is based on TEs, not WRs, even tho we have 3 very good WRs...ok, exquisite ones. So a running based offense based on guys who also are great receivers. And at OT, we have not only Joe and McG who can move but also BRunskill and Pope, two OLs who were former TEs to work into the lineup when Joe hangs 'em up.

We all have been trying to figure out what kind of O kyle is running, and now DJ has kindly shown us the way.

If this isn't kyle's Plan, i bet it is darn close. Really well done, DJ. If this is truly kyle's Plan, remember DJ figured it out first. And...it just makes sense. Ok, i am finessing the QB protection here, but i bet all this is based on the ball being gone in under 2.0 seconds.

Let's keep this mutual back-patting going here for a bit...

I have read/heard several NFL observers noting that the current rules favoring the passing game have made the days of the 250+ pound LB a thing of the past. Those big guys just cannot keep up with the speed of RBs/TEs that have become favorite targets in offenses like Shanahan's. Today's LB is <240. Look at 49er LBs:
Al-Shaair - 228
Alexander - 227
Greenlaw - 227
Nzeocha - 240
Warner - 236.
All those guys are FAST...but light.

Your concept of running a bunch of TE-types out there is very interesting in light of this development.

We already know that Kittle is a match-up nightmare. Fast enough to out-run a LB and big enough to run over a safety/CB. (see where this is going?)
Now add in some other TEs that have decent speed and can over-power these lighter LBs and definitely blow up any DBs that come up. That becomes a very potent brew at any place on the field.

With a league that is building defenses for speed at the expense of size/strength, having Goodwin to keep their attention, and then run at them with a bunch of big tough guys that can run over those lightweight defenders. That is going to keep some DCs awake at night.

Here is what Kyle can throw at them:
Kittle - 250
Dwelley - 240
Smith - 252
Toilolo - 262

Just when the league thought they had it figured out...

Originally posted by libertyforever:

Outline is not the same as research. Learn to read and be respectful. The 2016 Shanahan offense can be our standard too.

Great, tell us all about it with your 18th post. Seriously. We'd love to hear it. I already outlined what you need to research.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by StubbornRussian:
PFF has the Niners OL ranked at 16 with potential to be great if Tomlinson takes a step up and Richburg regains pre injury form. Seems about right to me and is why we didn't see any desperation by Lynch and co. And that is with CJ and Mullens behind them. JG will elevate their performance some or at least how they are perceived as the opposing defenses should have to stay more honest due to JGs arm talent. But if we take injuries at OL it could decide our fate.

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-nfl-offensive-line-rankings-all-32-teams-units-entering-2019

PFF is terrible at OL grades; probably their worst position grades. It's solid for other positions and units but this one, they've been called out many times on. A better system is football outsiders. They go more in depth for sure. I believe they adjusted ours to around 22nd which seems more accurate to me (obviously, with a healthy Richburg could improve this quite a bit).

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol/2018

Also, there are a few really good OL experts on Twitter that I'd recommend following too.

I disagree with FO's Oline stats being that good. Their only measure of OL pass protection is sack rate, which completely lacks context. Their run blocking ranking might be more relevant, bu does not support your argument about the 49ers OL being crap, so it can be dismissed as well.

If you want to go into individual OLman ranking, your only option is PFF, as BR had discontinued their NFL1000 feature.

Originally posted by Poldarn49:

I disagree with FO's Oline stats being that good. Their only measure of OL pass protection is sack rate, which completely lacks context. Their run blocking ranking might be more relevant, bu does not support your argument about the 49ers OL being crap, so it can be dismissed as well.

If you want to go into individual OLman ranking, your only option is PFF, as BR had discontinued their NFL1000 feature.

Stopped reading at "...your argument about the 49ers OL being crap." And if you're pumping PFF for OL grades, well...

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by libertyforever:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by libertyforever:

Originally posted by NCommand:

I don't think collectively, anybody thinks our OL is "bad." Probably rank around in the low 20's personally. It is bad at the things it needs to be great at to properly run the offense Kyle wants except zone blocking to set up play action - really good at that run blocking. But yeah, Chargers have been pounded with OL injuries and poor personnel moves there and it always catches up to them despite how explosive their offense can be at times.

You have to research and find out vs assuming that the OL needs to be great at certain things to have a great Shanahan offense.

Learn to read. I clearly outlined what they DO need to do if Kyle wants to have a wide open offense. The exact things LAR did do last year. As a unit, they played outstanding in these areas and it showed. Better coaching? Better development? Better talent? More chemistry? All of the above?

You can decide why that was but that should be our standard.

Outline is not the same as research. Learn to read and be respectful. The 2016 Shanahan offense can be our standard too.

Great, tell us all about it with your 18th post. Seriously. We'd love to hear it. I already outlined what you need to research.

I was trying to see when you said in your original post that the OL needs to be great in certain things for the Shanahan offense to run properly, if you actually did your research to reach that conclusion. I guess not. That can be your homework for the day.

One underrated word that makes a huge difference. CONTINUITY.....we have that now with Richburg back.

Originally posted by 808niner4lyphe:

One underrated word that makes a huge difference. CONTINUITY.....we have that now with Richburg back.

Definitely! In fact, on the tweets I was posting in here yesterday, we're one of just a handful of teams starting the same expected 5 (unless Richburg doesn't start). Some teams didn't need to change starters and some chose not too but most had to make changes for whatever reason. I think it's even more important with the zone scheme. I really hope Richburg comes back. He's the QB of that line and crucial to the entire offense's success.