49ers Offensive Line

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by 9moon:
ONE thing about Harbaugh's 49ers... gotta admit.. we had one fine group of OL I recall..

Meh Iupati pass blocked about as well as Compton and Brunskill do. Kap made a lot of plays with his legs.

They were not good at pass-blocking either. Boone and Iupati where very good run-blockers, but not great in pass-pro. Same thing with Davis. Joe was the complete package.

Goodwin was a good vet, but not special.

Originally posted by NCommand:
This has become the other extreme of a WCO (same WCO plays and terminology) but...run to set up the pass and no heavy short passing game to keep the chains moving and set up shot plays. And no full use of the entire field and lowest passing attempts in the NFL annually. Kyle seems to be getting away from the very principles and foundation of the WCO philosophy.

Wait are you saying Jimmy wasn't throwing a ton of short passes?

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by JoseCortez:
Correct.

The 49ers were a superbowl team in the 80s because of Bob Mckitrick. That offensive line was stellar.

Tom brady needed Dante Scarnechia to win all his superbowls with the patriots. He was never touched.

Without an offensive line, your qb is garbage. Look at mahommes in the superbowl last year.

To me, it is the most important position in all of football. And ours sucks.

Everyone on that OL minus Brunskill was graded out as avg or above avg in PBLKing this yr.

Mahomes literally had 4 of his 5 lineman playing different positions a week before the SB. He had a collection of UDFAs and late rd guys on that line. They might as well not even had guys standing there, that's how poor that group was. It was like 4 Brunskills lol.

Brady made a lot of lineman money throughout the yrs all the same. WHEN your QB actually knows where to go with the ball pre-snap that makes everything better. When your QB can recognize post-snap what's what quickly that makes everything better. Jimmy is subpar at doing this.

Truth. And Jimmy Garoppolo and his quick release and low TTT (despite intermediate passing game) are gone now.

Now we're going to have a mobile QB who is going to be at the highest end of TTT. So that pass protection is going to have a massive spot light on it going forward, not only in learning 'how' to block for him but in the length of time needing to block for him.

We're about to find out how much Jimmy his this deficiency.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by JoseCortez:
Correct.

The 49ers were a superbowl team in the 80s because of Bob Mckitrick. That offensive line was stellar.

Tom brady needed Dante Scarnechia to win all his superbowls with the patriots. He was never touched.

Without an offensive line, your qb is garbage. Look at mahommes in the superbowl last year.

To me, it is the most important position in all of football. And ours sucks.

Everyone on that OL minus Brunskill was graded out as avg or above avg in PBLKing this yr.

Mahomes literally had 4 of his 5 lineman playing different positions a week before the SB. He had a collection of UDFAs and late rd guys on that line. They might as well not even had guys standing there, that's how poor that group was. It was like 4 Brunskills lol.

Brady made a lot of lineman money throughout the yrs all the same. WHEN your QB actually knows where to go with the ball pre-snap that makes everything better. When your QB can recognize post-snap what's what quickly that makes everything better. Jimmy is subpar at doing this.

Truth. And Jimmy Garoppolo and his quick release and low TTT (despite intermediate passing game) are gone now.

Now we're going to have a mobile QB who is going to be at the highest end of TTT. So that pass protection is going to have a massive spot light on it going forward, not only in learning 'how' to block for him but in the length of time needing to block for him.

We're about to find out how much Jimmy his this deficiency.

Quick release helps, but he has poor vision. Brady doesn't have Jimmy's quick release (close though) but he reads defenses very well, and most often than not he sees the open guy. Both things that Jimmy struggled with at times.

If Trey has good vision, OL will be fine. Either way, we aren't putting together 4-5 pro bowl lineman, so that thought process needs to stop already.

OLs in the NFL are average across the league, it's how it works now. DL are just too good, and only the elite OL can shut them down and those guys don't come cheap. Before Brady showed up, they had an average OL, then became great. And it wasn't bc of a rookie RT...

Originally posted by TheGore49er:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by JoseCortez:
Correct.

The 49ers were a superbowl team in the 80s because of Bob Mckitrick. That offensive line was stellar.

Tom brady needed Dante Scarnechia to win all his superbowls with the patriots. He was never touched.

Without an offensive line, your qb is garbage. Look at mahommes in the superbowl last year.

To me, it is the most important position in all of football. And ours sucks.

Everyone on that OL minus Brunskill was graded out as avg or above avg in PBLKing this yr.

Mahomes literally had 4 of his 5 lineman playing different positions a week before the SB. He had a collection of UDFAs and late rd guys on that line. They might as well not even had guys standing there, that's how poor that group was. It was like 4 Brunskills lol.

Brady made a lot of lineman money throughout the yrs all the same. WHEN your QB actually knows where to go with the ball pre-snap that makes everything better. When your QB can recognize post-snap what's what quickly that makes everything better. Jimmy is subpar at doing this.

Truth. And Jimmy Garoppolo and his quick release and low TTT (despite intermediate passing game) are gone now.

Now we're going to have a mobile QB who is going to be at the highest end of TTT. So that pass protection is going to have a massive spot light on it going forward, not only in learning 'how' to block for him but in the length of time needing to block for him.

We're about to find out how much Jimmy his this deficiency.

Quick release helps, but he has poor vision. Brady doesn't have Jimmy's quick release (close though) but he reads defenses very well, and most often than not he sees the open guy. Both things that Jimmy struggled with at times.

If Trey has good vision, OL will be fine. Either way, we aren't putting together 4-5 pro bowl lineman, so that thought process needs to stop already.

OLs in the NFL are average across the league, it's how it works now. DL are just too good, and only the elite OL can shut them down and those guys don't come cheap. Before Brady showed up, they had an average OL, then became great. And it wasn't bc of a rookie RT...

Good points but Brady isn't coming out of our locker room. We gotta stop trying to compare guys to the greatest to ever play. Even mentioning Mahomes is silly. We got a rookie qb that hasn't played much ball in 2 years. I'm not looking for 4 pro bowlers but we have to do better than Compton and Brunskill. The o line was one of the main problems in the super bowl and NFCCG. when we need them the most they have failed us. And folks just want to keep rolling out average guys. now once Try has proven he can make guys better than i can agree. But we can't put he cart before the horse. That's how you ruin a young qb.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:
This has become the other extreme of a WCO (same WCO plays and terminology) but...run to set up the pass and no heavy short passing game to keep the chains moving and set up shot plays. And no full use of the entire field and lowest passing attempts in the NFL annually. Kyle seems to be getting away from the very principles and foundation of the WCO philosophy.

Wait are you saying Jimmy wasn't throwing a ton of short passes?

Not to RB/FB's.

Originally posted by TheGore49er:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by JoseCortez:
Correct.

The 49ers were a superbowl team in the 80s because of Bob Mckitrick. That offensive line was stellar.

Tom brady needed Dante Scarnechia to win all his superbowls with the patriots. He was never touched.

Without an offensive line, your qb is garbage. Look at mahommes in the superbowl last year.

To me, it is the most important position in all of football. And ours sucks.

Everyone on that OL minus Brunskill was graded out as avg or above avg in PBLKing this yr.

Mahomes literally had 4 of his 5 lineman playing different positions a week before the SB. He had a collection of UDFAs and late rd guys on that line. They might as well not even had guys standing there, that's how poor that group was. It was like 4 Brunskills lol.

Brady made a lot of lineman money throughout the yrs all the same. WHEN your QB actually knows where to go with the ball pre-snap that makes everything better. When your QB can recognize post-snap what's what quickly that makes everything better. Jimmy is subpar at doing this.

Truth. And Jimmy Garoppolo and his quick release and low TTT (despite intermediate passing game) are gone now.

Now we're going to have a mobile QB who is going to be at the highest end of TTT. So that pass protection is going to have a massive spot light on it going forward, not only in learning 'how' to block for him but in the length of time needing to block for him.

We're about to find out how much Jimmy his this deficiency.

Quick release helps, but he has poor vision. Brady doesn't have Jimmy's quick release (close though) but he reads defenses very well, and most often than not he sees the open guy. Both things that Jimmy struggled with at times.

If Trey has good vision, OL will be fine. Either way, we aren't putting together 4-5 pro bowl lineman, so that thought process needs to stop already.

OLs in the NFL are average across the league, it's how it works now. DL are just too good, and only the elite OL can shut them down and those guys don't come cheap. Before Brady showed up, they had an average OL, then became great. And it wasn't bc of a rookie RT...

True but whether JG "sees" the field well or not he's still getting rid of the ball quicker which greatly helps the pass protection/OL (grades).

Let's hope Trey can see better and get rid of the ball just as fast but more effectively. Or just improve the OL. LOL

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by TheGore49er:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by JoseCortez:
Correct.

The 49ers were a superbowl team in the 80s because of Bob Mckitrick. That offensive line was stellar.

Tom brady needed Dante Scarnechia to win all his superbowls with the patriots. He was never touched.

Without an offensive line, your qb is garbage. Look at mahommes in the superbowl last year.

To me, it is the most important position in all of football. And ours sucks.

Everyone on that OL minus Brunskill was graded out as avg or above avg in PBLKing this yr.

Mahomes literally had 4 of his 5 lineman playing different positions a week before the SB. He had a collection of UDFAs and late rd guys on that line. They might as well not even had guys standing there, that's how poor that group was. It was like 4 Brunskills lol.

Brady made a lot of lineman money throughout the yrs all the same. WHEN your QB actually knows where to go with the ball pre-snap that makes everything better. When your QB can recognize post-snap what's what quickly that makes everything better. Jimmy is subpar at doing this.

Truth. And Jimmy Garoppolo and his quick release and low TTT (despite intermediate passing game) are gone now.

Now we're going to have a mobile QB who is going to be at the highest end of TTT. So that pass protection is going to have a massive spot light on it going forward, not only in learning 'how' to block for him but in the length of time needing to block for him.

We're about to find out how much Jimmy his this deficiency.

Quick release helps, but he has poor vision. Brady doesn't have Jimmy's quick release (close though) but he reads defenses very well, and most often than not he sees the open guy. Both things that Jimmy struggled with at times.

If Trey has good vision, OL will be fine. Either way, we aren't putting together 4-5 pro bowl lineman, so that thought process needs to stop already.

OLs in the NFL are average across the league, it's how it works now. DL are just too good, and only the elite OL can shut them down and those guys don't come cheap. Before Brady showed up, they had an average OL, then became great. And it wasn't bc of a rookie RT...

True but whether JG "sees" the field well or not he's still getting rid of the ball quicker which greatly helps the pass protection/OL (grades).

Let's hope Trey can see better and get rid of the ball just as fast but more effectively. Or just improve the OL. LOL

Trey having a good OLine should help that Release.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by TheGore49er:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by JoseCortez:
Correct.

The 49ers were a superbowl team in the 80s because of Bob Mckitrick. That offensive line was stellar.

Tom brady needed Dante Scarnechia to win all his superbowls with the patriots. He was never touched.

Without an offensive line, your qb is garbage. Look at mahommes in the superbowl last year.

To me, it is the most important position in all of football. And ours sucks.

Everyone on that OL minus Brunskill was graded out as avg or above avg in PBLKing this yr.

Mahomes literally had 4 of his 5 lineman playing different positions a week before the SB. He had a collection of UDFAs and late rd guys on that line. They might as well not even had guys standing there, that's how poor that group was. It was like 4 Brunskills lol.

Brady made a lot of lineman money throughout the yrs all the same. WHEN your QB actually knows where to go with the ball pre-snap that makes everything better. When your QB can recognize post-snap what's what quickly that makes everything better. Jimmy is subpar at doing this.

Truth. And Jimmy Garoppolo and his quick release and low TTT (despite intermediate passing game) are gone now.

Now we're going to have a mobile QB who is going to be at the highest end of TTT. So that pass protection is going to have a massive spot light on it going forward, not only in learning 'how' to block for him but in the length of time needing to block for him.

We're about to find out how much Jimmy his this deficiency.

Quick release helps, but he has poor vision. Brady doesn't have Jimmy's quick release (close though) but he reads defenses very well, and most often than not he sees the open guy. Both things that Jimmy struggled with at times.

If Trey has good vision, OL will be fine. Either way, we aren't putting together 4-5 pro bowl lineman, so that thought process needs to stop already.

OLs in the NFL are average across the league, it's how it works now. DL are just too good, and only the elite OL can shut them down and those guys don't come cheap. Before Brady showed up, they had an average OL, then became great. And it wasn't bc of a rookie RT...

True but whether JG "sees" the field well or not he's still getting rid of the ball quicker which greatly helps the pass protection/OL (grades).

Let's hope Trey can see better and get rid of the ball just as fast but more effectively. Or just improve the OL. LOL

Trey having a good OLine should help that Release.

I'm calling it right now that when Trey starts full-time, people are gonna love the big plays… the improvisation… the huge throws he makes on the intermediate and deep stuff…

But there's also gonna be a lot of "C'mon Trey, quit holding the ball so long and get it out there."

Gonna take some time for him to learn to read defenses and get the ball out as fast as Jimmy did. And I think the offensive line might take some heat for it, tbh.

It'll be a process.

Originally posted by TheGore49er:
Quick release helps, but he has poor vision. Brady doesn't have Jimmy's quick release (close though) but he reads defenses very well, and most often than not he sees the open guy. Both things that Jimmy struggled with at times.

If Trey has good vision, OL will be fine. Either way, we aren't putting together 4-5 pro bowl lineman, so that thought process needs to stop already.

OLs in the NFL are average across the league, it's how it works now. DL are just too good, and only the elite OL can shut them down and those guys don't come cheap. Before Brady showed up, they had an average OL, then became great. And it wasn't bc of a rookie RT...

Pardon the short digression from strictly OL talk but there is a relationship.

It is true that Garoppolo misses reads and open receivers at times. However, it must also be remembered that in terms of actual playing time, he has not yet had a full season playing in the same system. He came here and played in 6 games with a very limited playbook, then 3 games and the ACL, followed the very good 2019 season but that was only 16 games. 2020 was a general cluster of injuries and no continuity at all. Then this last season where the pieces finally began to fit but even then it was near the midpoint of the season that Aiyuk began to play his role well. My point is that we do not know if this lack of vision is a problem with Jimmy or a problem with the lack of continuity and playing time in the offense. It could be some of each. One thing is true, he is not an 8-year veteran as some imply when looking at his numbers. He is a guy that has had an interrupted career with little continuity that struggles to pick up defenses and open receivers at times. (My personal opinion, as I have expressed in these forums before, if you put JG in a pass-first offense for a full season, you will find a much improved Jimmy Garoppolo. Hello Nathaniel Hackett.)

Now to connect that to Lance; it may well take him a full season or more to reach the same vision awareness that Jimmy had this past season. We all hope that will not be the case. In the meantime, whatever the interval, the OL will be charged with providing protection for him until he learns to help them out with quicker reads and hopefully, a quicker release.

It is called complementary football.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:
This has become the other extreme of a WCO (same WCO plays and terminology) but...run to set up the pass and no heavy short passing game to keep the chains moving and set up shot plays. And no full use of the entire field and lowest passing attempts in the NFL annually. Kyle seems to be getting away from the very principles and foundation of the WCO philosophy.

Wait are you saying Jimmy wasn't throwing a ton of short passes?

Not to RB/FB's.

I definitely want to see a return to this. If there are 5 options on most passes, Trey can get rid of the ball quick to either back or TE

Originally posted by NCommand:
Especially with a rookie QB. DC's will stack the box and run blitz non stop until we can prove we can run. Or continue to burn them in the passing game. As to Juice's comments, it sounds like Mike McDaniel was the "architect" of the running game over these years and Kyle was the "play caller." It'll be interesting to see what Lynn does now.

Also, with a run and pass coordinator and Kyle calling the plays, Crocker covered this too recently: where is the short game to the running/full backs? We got away from a lot of the quick, QB-friendly plays.

This has become the other extreme of a WCO (same WCO plays and terminology) but...run to set up the pass and no heavy short passing game to keep the chains moving and set up shot plays. And no full use of the entire field and lowest passing attempts in the NFL annually. Kyle seems to be getting away from the very principles and foundation of the WCO philosophy.

I don't believe Kyle has a great deal of affinity for the WCO, or at least the one that relies on the pass to move the chains. He wants to run the ball and run the ball, all the while using some principles of WCO, such as motion and the like, but none of the passing plays that made the Walsh version almost unstoppable. With Walsh, Tom Rathman became a major weapon as a pass receiver. It is no surprise that when Andy Reid went back to the short passing attack the Chiefs began to put up points again.

I want to see Kyle show a willingness to throw the ball by design, not just of necessity when his preferred toy winds down. That will help the OL a ton. For those that are too young to remember, Walsh won SB 16 with a converted guard with anxiety issue that some say weighed about 235 pounds at LT. Walsh made it work by using him for screens and other devices to keep him from getting run over. Had Walsh insisted on running the ball and throwing longer routes, the SB team likely never happens.

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:
This has become the other extreme of a WCO (same WCO plays and terminology) but...run to set up the pass and no heavy short passing game to keep the chains moving and set up shot plays. And no full use of the entire field and lowest passing attempts in the NFL annually. Kyle seems to be getting away from the very principles and foundation of the WCO philosophy.

Wait are you saying Jimmy wasn't throwing a ton of short passes?

Not to RB/FB's.

I definitely want to see a return to this. If there are 5 options on most passes, Trey can get rid of the ball quick to either back or TE

Did Shanahan even have a lot of receiving route out of the backfield in Atlanta? I don't remember.

I know we really wanted to make Jet McKinnon a huge part of our offense in the passing game, but then he got injured. And then George Kittle and eventually Deebo Samuel emerged. So our offense has developed in a certain way to focus on their skillsets.

I'm going to guess we'll see Deebo Samuel doing a lot of routes out of the backfield that are traditionally RB-routes.

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Especially with a rookie QB. DC's will stack the box and run blitz non stop until we can prove we can run. Or continue to burn them in the passing game. As to Juice's comments, it sounds like Mike McDaniel was the "architect" of the running game over these years and Kyle was the "play caller." It'll be interesting to see what Lynn does now.

Also, with a run and pass coordinator and Kyle calling the plays, Crocker covered this too recently: where is the short game to the running/full backs? We got away from a lot of the quick, QB-friendly plays.

This has become the other extreme of a WCO (same WCO plays and terminology) but...run to set up the pass and no heavy short passing game to keep the chains moving and set up shot plays. And no full use of the entire field and lowest passing attempts in the NFL annually. Kyle seems to be getting away from the very principles and foundation of the WCO philosophy.

I don't believe Kyle has a great deal of affinity for the WCO, or at least the one that relies on the pass to move the chains. He wants to run the ball and run the ball, all the while using some principles of WCO, such as motion and the like, but none of the passing plays that made the Walsh version almost unstoppable. With Walsh, Tom Rathman became a major weapon as a pass receiver. It is no surprise that when Andy Reid went back to the short passing attack the Chiefs began to put up points again.

I want to see Kyle show a willingness to throw the ball by design, not just of necessity when his preferred toy winds down. That will help the OL a ton. For those that are too young to remember, Walsh won SB 16 with a converted guard with anxiety issue that some say weighed about 235 pounds at LT. Walsh made it work by using him for screens and other devices to keep him from getting run over. Had Walsh insisted on running the ball and throwing longer routes, the SB team likely never happens.

Great post! I love these kinds of philosophical conversations. We're lucky to be in position to experience both extremes.

Originally posted by Wubbie:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by TheGore49er:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by JoseCortez:
Correct.

The 49ers were a superbowl team in the 80s because of Bob Mckitrick. That offensive line was stellar.

Tom brady needed Dante Scarnechia to win all his superbowls with the patriots. He was never touched.

Without an offensive line, your qb is garbage. Look at mahommes in the superbowl last year.

To me, it is the most important position in all of football. And ours sucks.

Everyone on that OL minus Brunskill was graded out as avg or above avg in PBLKing this yr.

Mahomes literally had 4 of his 5 lineman playing different positions a week before the SB. He had a collection of UDFAs and late rd guys on that line. They might as well not even had guys standing there, that's how poor that group was. It was like 4 Brunskills lol.

Brady made a lot of lineman money throughout the yrs all the same. WHEN your QB actually knows where to go with the ball pre-snap that makes everything better. When your QB can recognize post-snap what's what quickly that makes everything better. Jimmy is subpar at doing this.

Truth. And Jimmy Garoppolo and his quick release and low TTT (despite intermediate passing game) are gone now.

Now we're going to have a mobile QB who is going to be at the highest end of TTT. So that pass protection is going to have a massive spot light on it going forward, not only in learning 'how' to block for him but in the length of time needing to block for him.

We're about to find out how much Jimmy his this deficiency.

Quick release helps, but he has poor vision. Brady doesn't have Jimmy's quick release (close though) but he reads defenses very well, and most often than not he sees the open guy. Both things that Jimmy struggled with at times.

If Trey has good vision, OL will be fine. Either way, we aren't putting together 4-5 pro bowl lineman, so that thought process needs to stop already.

OLs in the NFL are average across the league, it's how it works now. DL are just too good, and only the elite OL can shut them down and those guys don't come cheap. Before Brady showed up, they had an average OL, then became great. And it wasn't bc of a rookie RT...

True but whether JG "sees" the field well or not he's still getting rid of the ball quicker which greatly helps the pass protection/OL (grades).

Let's hope Trey can see better and get rid of the ball just as fast but more effectively. Or just improve the OL. LOL

Trey having a good OLine should help that Release.

I'm calling it right now that when Trey starts full-time, people are gonna love the big plays… the improvisation… the huge throws he makes on the intermediate and deep stuff…

But there's also gonna be a lot of "C'mon Trey, quit holding the ball so long and get it out there."

Gonna take some time for him to learn to read defenses and get the ball out as fast as Jimmy did. And I think the offensive line might take some heat for it, tbh.

It'll be a process.

Agree. It will be a process, but the Kyle system is a very QB friendly process. The burden of the offense is on the RB's and OLine (at least with Jimmy as the QB). Kyle might modify the run/pass mix as Lance develops a more consistent passing attack. Key is the run game. So long as Trey has a rushing attack that can dominate, or if not dominate, at least something that Trey can lean on for 3rd down conversions - I would think Trey will be hitting on all cylinders by the end of the 2022 season. With rookie or beginning QB's - what is important is the ability to handle the blitz. The blitz will gum up a lot of run plays (as well as pass plays), and if Trey can't handle the blitz the way Jimmy did, that wonderful Kyle offense will bog down and look like another Jim Harbaugh/Bo Shembechler offense. Until Trey can burn defenses if they blitz him, DC's will call blitzes every other down.