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49ers Offensive Line
Feb 11, 2022 at 7:59 PM
- DRCHOWDER
- Veteran
- Posts: 15,711
That play in the NFC championship where the Guards run into each other as does the center run into Williams was hillarious but defined out oline play that game lol
Feb 12, 2022 at 11:18 AM
- dj43
- Moderator
- Posts: 35,654
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Especially with a rookie QB. DC's will stack the box and run blitz non stop until we can prove we can run. Or continue to burn them in the passing game. As to Juice's comments, it sounds like Mike McDaniel was the "architect" of the running game over these years and Kyle was the "play caller." It'll be interesting to see what Lynn does now.
Also, with a run and pass coordinator and Kyle calling the plays, Crocker covered this too recently: where is the short game to the running/full backs? We got away from a lot of the quick, QB-friendly plays.
This has become the other extreme of a WCO (same WCO plays and terminology) but...run to set up the pass and no heavy short passing game to keep the chains moving and set up shot plays. And no full use of the entire field and lowest passing attempts in the NFL annually. Kyle seems to be getting away from the very principles and foundation of the WCO philosophy.
I don't believe Kyle has a great deal of affinity for the WCO, or at least the one that relies on the pass to move the chains. He wants to run the ball and run the ball, all the while using some principles of WCO, such as motion and the like, but none of the passing plays that made the Walsh version almost unstoppable. With Walsh, Tom Rathman became a major weapon as a pass receiver. It is no surprise that when Andy Reid went back to the short passing attack the Chiefs began to put up points again.
I want to see Kyle show a willingness to throw the ball by design, not just of necessity when his preferred toy winds down. That will help the OL a ton. For those that are too young to remember, Walsh won SB 16 with a converted guard with anxiety issue that some say weighed about 235 pounds at LT. Walsh made it work by using him for screens and other devices to keep him from getting run over. Had Walsh insisted on running the ball and throwing longer routes, the SB team likely never happens.
Great post! I love these kinds of philosophical conversations. We're lucky to be in position to experience both extremes.
Thank you.
Everybody has their blind spot. Things that appear obvious to others but are hidden to them. Kyle Shanahan is no exception. I believe his blind spot centers around his pride as expressed in his run game. At a time when the rest of the league is throwing the ball, he is dead set on proving he can be different and be successful. To a large degree, he is successful. However, there comes a time when the opponent sells out to stop the run, and if the coach cannot see that, accept that his preferred method is no longer working, and adjust away from it, he will lose. The NFCCG is an example. When the Rams shut down the run, there was no sound fallback position.
There is another part of this blind spot issue that figures into the equation. If the coach doesn't see it, he becomes unbalanced in his approach and the way he "sells" it to his team. We saw KS doing that with his "40 Running Plays" goal. While that goal is admirable on several levels, it is also saying, "We don't want to pass the ball unless we have to." At some level, he is telling the QB that his ability to pass the ball is not really needed, or "I don't trust you to throw it." We saw an example of the latter in the 2019 playoff run. This is a problem both physically and mentally.
It is axiomatic that if you want to get really good at something, you have to practice it a lot. Not only practice it but sell it to the team. Not only practice it but select players with a bias to playing that way - scheme fit. Good run blockers (Compton and Brunskill) that are below average pass protectors. Wide receivers that are OK running routes but outstanding run blockers. Now you have a combination of scheme preference in player selection and practice emphasis and the passing game fails for lack of planning and execution when the running game is stuffed.
I don't know what goes on in practice but I recall Joe Montana talking about the endless repetition Walsh demanded on simple flat passes to backs coming out of the backfield. The ball had to hit the RB on his hands with breaking or altering his run in any way - 12 times in a row. A miss and you start over. Eventually, Wendell Tyler and later Roger Craig/Tom Rathman got to the point they could almost catch the ball with their eyes closed. That is the kind of focus and repetition that must happen if the passing game is to be successful. You cannot put the QB in a critical situation where he must complete a pass, and the OL (remember the OL? That is the title of this thread. lol) must pass protect to give the QB a chance to do his job. However, when your OL is selected with a preference for blocking an OZ running scheme at the expense of better pass blocking, at some point, the passing game is going to suffer.
So when Kyle goes down the "40 play road," the passing game gets less emphasis which leads to less efficiency. We have seen this with Garoppolo. He is asked to orchestrate a run-first offense most of the time but then execute a passing game at a critical point in the game when deception and misdirection are no longer a factor. In those situations, the OL struggles and subsequently, the QB will struggle no matter who he is.
In Shanahan's passing offense it seems he relies on schemes to get wide open receivers but there is not the emphasis on precise routes and the repetition that is necessary to complete those passes consistently. Instead we see routes where the receivers are flattening out their routes when they should be continuing on the same line, or not reading the defense the same way each time, etc. All of those things must be practiced time and time again if the passing game is to be more than just a virtual Hail Mary when the running game did not move the chains.
Finally, all this works on the psyche of the QB (and the OL) and when the psyche breaks down, even in someone as mentally tough as Garoppolo, and eventually it will, the performance will fail as well. This is where I am proposing Kyle has a blind spot that is hurting the overall performance of the offense - creating an imbalance in the offense that makes consistently efficient performance harder than it should be. In another thread, someone suggested that Garoppolo's psyche had been broken down playing in this system. I agree...but that is for another post in another thread.
...now on to yard work...
Feb 12, 2022 at 4:17 PM
- NCommand
- Hall of Fame
- Posts: 123,330
Originally posted by DRCHOWDER:
That play in the NFC championship where the Guards run into each other as does the center run into Williams was hillarious but defined out oline play that game lol
Right? That should never happen this late in the year. Inexcusable.
Feb 13, 2022 at 9:57 AM
- NCommand
- Hall of Fame
- Posts: 123,330
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Especially with a rookie QB. DC's will stack the box and run blitz non stop until we can prove we can run. Or continue to burn them in the passing game. As to Juice's comments, it sounds like Mike McDaniel was the "architect" of the running game over these years and Kyle was the "play caller." It'll be interesting to see what Lynn does now.
Also, with a run and pass coordinator and Kyle calling the plays, Crocker covered this too recently: where is the short game to the running/full backs? We got away from a lot of the quick, QB-friendly plays.
This has become the other extreme of a WCO (same WCO plays and terminology) but...run to set up the pass and no heavy short passing game to keep the chains moving and set up shot plays. And no full use of the entire field and lowest passing attempts in the NFL annually. Kyle seems to be getting away from the very principles and foundation of the WCO philosophy.
I don't believe Kyle has a great deal of affinity for the WCO, or at least the one that relies on the pass to move the chains. He wants to run the ball and run the ball, all the while using some principles of WCO, such as motion and the like, but none of the passing plays that made the Walsh version almost unstoppable. With Walsh, Tom Rathman became a major weapon as a pass receiver. It is no surprise that when Andy Reid went back to the short passing attack the Chiefs began to put up points again.
I want to see Kyle show a willingness to throw the ball by design, not just of necessity when his preferred toy winds down. That will help the OL a ton. For those that are too young to remember, Walsh won SB 16 with a converted guard with anxiety issue that some say weighed about 235 pounds at LT. Walsh made it work by using him for screens and other devices to keep him from getting run over. Had Walsh insisted on running the ball and throwing longer routes, the SB team likely never happens.
Great post! I love these kinds of philosophical conversations. We're lucky to be in position to experience both extremes.
Thank you.
Everybody has their blind spot. Things that appear obvious to others but are hidden to them. Kyle Shanahan is no exception. I believe his blind spot centers around his pride as expressed in his run game. At a time when the rest of the league is throwing the ball, he is dead set on proving he can be different and be successful. To a large degree, he is successful. However, there comes a time when the opponent sells out to stop the run, and if the coach cannot see that, accept that his preferred method is no longer working, and adjust away from it, he will lose. The NFCCG is an example. When the Rams shut down the run, there was no sound fallback position.
There is another part of this blind spot issue that figures into the equation. If the coach doesn't see it, he becomes unbalanced in his approach and the way he "sells" it to his team. We saw KS doing that with his "40 Running Plays" goal. While that goal is admirable on several levels, it is also saying, "We don't want to pass the ball unless we have to." At some level, he is telling the QB that his ability to pass the ball is not really needed, or "I don't trust you to throw it." We saw an example of the latter in the 2019 playoff run. This is a problem both physically and mentally.
It is axiomatic that if you want to get really good at something, you have to practice it a lot. Not only practice it but sell it to the team. Not only practice it but select players with a bias to playing that way - scheme fit. Good run blockers (Compton and Brunskill) that are below average pass protectors. Wide receivers that are OK running routes but outstanding run blockers. Now you have a combination of scheme preference in player selection and practice emphasis and the passing game fails for lack of planning and execution when the running game is stuffed.
I don't know what goes on in practice but I recall Joe Montana talking about the endless repetition Walsh demanded on simple flat passes to backs coming out of the backfield. The ball had to hit the RB on his hands with breaking or altering his run in any way - 12 times in a row. A miss and you start over. Eventually, Wendell Tyler and later Roger Craig/Tom Rathman got to the point they could almost catch the ball with their eyes closed. That is the kind of focus and repetition that must happen if the passing game is to be successful. You cannot put the QB in a critical situation where he must complete a pass, and the OL (remember the OL? That is the title of this thread. lol) must pass protect to give the QB a chance to do his job. However, when your OL is selected with a preference for blocking an OZ running scheme at the expense of better pass blocking, at some point, the passing game is going to suffer.
So when Kyle goes down the "40 play road," the passing game gets less emphasis which leads to less efficiency. We have seen this with Garoppolo. He is asked to orchestrate a run-first offense most of the time but then execute a passing game at a critical point in the game when deception and misdirection are no longer a factor. In those situations, the OL struggles and subsequently, the QB will struggle no matter who he is.
In Shanahan's passing offense it seems he relies on schemes to get wide open receivers but there is not the emphasis on precise routes and the repetition that is necessary to complete those passes consistently. Instead we see routes where the receivers are flattening out their routes when they should be continuing on the same line, or not reading the defense the same way each time, etc. All of those things must be practiced time and time again if the passing game is to be more than just a virtual Hail Mary when the running game did not move the chains.
Finally, all this works on the psyche of the QB (and the OL) and when the psyche breaks down, even in someone as mentally tough as Garoppolo, and eventually it will, the performance will fail as well. This is where I am proposing Kyle has a blind spot that is hurting the overall performance of the offense - creating an imbalance in the offense that makes consistently efficient performance harder than it should be. In another thread, someone suggested that Garoppolo's psyche had been broken down playing in this system. I agree...but that is for another post in another thread.
...now on to yard work...
So many good points in here, I don't even know where yo start responding. LOL
Might need to continue in the Kyle thread.
Feb 13, 2022 at 10:30 AM
- LasVegasWally
- Veteran
- Posts: 24,247
Originally posted by Wubbie:
I'm calling it right now that when Trey starts full-time, people are gonna love the big plays… the improvisation… the huge throws he makes on the intermediate and deep stuff…
But there's also gonna be a lot of "C'mon Trey, quit holding the ball so long and get it out there."
Gonna take some time for him to learn to read defenses and get the ball out as fast as Jimmy did. And I think the offensive line might take some heat for it, tbh.
It'll be a process.
Good post
Feb 13, 2022 at 10:33 AM
- GoreGoreGore
- 10HourChicken
- Posts: 54,076
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by TheGore49er:Pardon the short digression from strictly OL talk but there is a relationship.
Quick release helps, but he has poor vision. Brady doesn't have Jimmy's quick release (close though) but he reads defenses very well, and most often than not he sees the open guy. Both things that Jimmy struggled with at times.
If Trey has good vision, OL will be fine. Either way, we aren't putting together 4-5 pro bowl lineman, so that thought process needs to stop already.
OLs in the NFL are average across the league, it's how it works now. DL are just too good, and only the elite OL can shut them down and those guys don't come cheap. Before Brady showed up, they had an average OL, then became great. And it wasn't bc of a rookie RT...
It is true that Garoppolo misses reads and open receivers at times. However, it must also be remembered that in terms of actual playing time, he has not yet had a full season playing in the same system. He came here and played in 6 games with a very limited playbook, then 3 games and the ACL, followed the very good 2019 season but that was only 16 games. 2020 was a general cluster of injuries and no continuity at all. Then this last season where the pieces finally began to fit but even then it was near the midpoint of the season that Aiyuk began to play his role well. My point is that we do not know if this lack of vision is a problem with Jimmy or a problem with the lack of continuity and playing time in the offense. It could be some of each. One thing is true, he is not an 8-year veteran as some imply when looking at his numbers. He is a guy that has had an interrupted career with little continuity that struggles to pick up defenses and open receivers at times. (My personal opinion, as I have expressed in these forums before, if you put JG in a pass-first offense for a full season, you will find a much improved Jimmy Garoppolo. Hello Nathaniel Hackett.)
Now to connect that to Lance; it may well take him a full season or more to reach the same vision awareness that Jimmy had this past season. We all hope that will not be the case. In the meantime, whatever the interval, the OL will be charged with providing protection for him until he learns to help them out with quicker reads and hopefully, a quicker release.
It is called complementary football.
... He's played enough, that's a very poor excuse. Guys like Stafford is in a SB his first year in a new offense, Brady just won a SB first year in a new offense. Then you have young QBs like Pat and Burrow who were in a SB in their first couple of years...
And even if we want to say that about Jimmy, it's the teams fault he can't ever stay healthy long enough.
[ Edited by TheGore49er on Feb 13, 2022 at 10:36 AM ]
Feb 13, 2022 at 10:39 AM
- NCommand
- Hall of Fame
- Posts: 123,330
Nice to hear Steve, Alex and Coach O all talking about how they had specific game plans to protect the QB...that the protection was the key to winning. That the OL were challenged all two weeks.
I just never get that same hyper focused sense with Kyle outside of his own play calling (might call a few more quick screens or fly sweeps and passes behind the LOS).
I just never get that same hyper focused sense with Kyle outside of his own play calling (might call a few more quick screens or fly sweeps and passes behind the LOS).
Feb 13, 2022 at 6:59 PM
- NCommand
- Hall of Fame
- Posts: 123,330
Poor pass protection. Again. You can't transcend it.
[ Edited by NCommand on Feb 13, 2022 at 7:06 PM ]
Feb 13, 2022 at 7:07 PM
- Giedi
- Veteran
- Posts: 32,246
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Especially with a rookie QB. DC's will stack the box and run blitz non stop until we can prove we can run. Or continue to burn them in the passing game. As to Juice's comments, it sounds like Mike McDaniel was the "architect" of the running game over these years and Kyle was the "play caller." It'll be interesting to see what Lynn does now.
Also, with a run and pass coordinator and Kyle calling the plays, Crocker covered this too recently: where is the short game to the running/full backs? We got away from a lot of the quick, QB-friendly plays.
This has become the other extreme of a WCO (same WCO plays and terminology) but...run to set up the pass and no heavy short passing game to keep the chains moving and set up shot plays. And no full use of the entire field and lowest passing attempts in the NFL annually. Kyle seems to be getting away from the very principles and foundation of the WCO philosophy.
I don't believe Kyle has a great deal of affinity for the WCO, or at least the one that relies on the pass to move the chains. He wants to run the ball and run the ball, all the while using some principles of WCO, such as motion and the like, but none of the passing plays that made the Walsh version almost unstoppable. With Walsh, Tom Rathman became a major weapon as a pass receiver. It is no surprise that when Andy Reid went back to the short passing attack the Chiefs began to put up points again.
I want to see Kyle show a willingness to throw the ball by design, not just of necessity when his preferred toy winds down. That will help the OL a ton. For those that are too young to remember, Walsh won SB 16 with a converted guard with anxiety issue that some say weighed about 235 pounds at LT. Walsh made it work by using him for screens and other devices to keep him from getting run over. Had Walsh insisted on running the ball and throwing longer routes, the SB team likely never happens.
Great post! I love these kinds of philosophical conversations. We're lucky to be in position to experience both extremes.
Thank you.
Everybody has their blind spot. Things that appear obvious to others but are hidden to them. Kyle Shanahan is no exception. I believe his blind spot centers around his pride as expressed in his run game. At a time when the rest of the league is throwing the ball, he is dead set on proving he can be different and be successful. To a large degree, he is successful. However, there comes a time when the opponent sells out to stop the run, and if the coach cannot see that, accept that his preferred method is no longer working, and adjust away from it, he will lose. The NFCCG is an example. When the Rams shut down the run, there was no sound fallback position.
There is another part of this blind spot issue that figures into the equation. If the coach doesn't see it, he becomes unbalanced in his approach and the way he "sells" it to his team. We saw KS doing that with his "40 Running Plays" goal. While that goal is admirable on several levels, it is also saying, "We don't want to pass the ball unless we have to." At some level, he is telling the QB that his ability to pass the ball is not really needed, or "I don't trust you to throw it." We saw an example of the latter in the 2019 playoff run. This is a problem both physically and mentally.
It is axiomatic that if you want to get really good at something, you have to practice it a lot. Not only practice it but sell it to the team. Not only practice it but select players with a bias to playing that way - scheme fit. Good run blockers (Compton and Brunskill) that are below average pass protectors. Wide receivers that are OK running routes but outstanding run blockers. Now you have a combination of scheme preference in player selection and practice emphasis and the passing game fails for lack of planning and execution when the running game is stuffed.
I don't know what goes on in practice but I recall Joe Montana talking about the endless repetition Walsh demanded on simple flat passes to backs coming out of the backfield. The ball had to hit the RB on his hands with breaking or altering his run in any way - 12 times in a row. A miss and you start over. Eventually, Wendell Tyler and later Roger Craig/Tom Rathman got to the point they could almost catch the ball with their eyes closed. That is the kind of focus and repetition that must happen if the passing game is to be successful. You cannot put the QB in a critical situation where he must complete a pass, and the OL (remember the OL? That is the title of this thread. lol) must pass protect to give the QB a chance to do his job. However, when your OL is selected with a preference for blocking an OZ running scheme at the expense of better pass blocking, at some point, the passing game is going to suffer.
So when Kyle goes down the "40 play road," the passing game gets less emphasis which leads to less efficiency. We have seen this with Garoppolo. He is asked to orchestrate a run-first offense most of the time but then execute a passing game at a critical point in the game when deception and misdirection are no longer a factor. In those situations, the OL struggles and subsequently, the QB will struggle no matter who he is.
In Shanahan's passing offense it seems he relies on schemes to get wide open receivers but there is not the emphasis on precise routes and the repetition that is necessary to complete those passes consistently. Instead we see routes where the receivers are flattening out their routes when they should be continuing on the same line, or not reading the defense the same way each time, etc. All of those things must be practiced time and time again if the passing game is to be more than just a virtual Hail Mary when the running game did not move the chains.
Finally, all this works on the psyche of the QB (and the OL) and when the psyche breaks down, even in someone as mentally tough as Garoppolo, and eventually it will, the performance will fail as well. This is where I am proposing Kyle has a blind spot that is hurting the overall performance of the offense - creating an imbalance in the offense that makes consistently efficient performance harder than it should be. In another thread, someone suggested that Garoppolo's psyche had been broken down playing in this system. I agree...but that is for another post in another thread.
...now on to yard work...
The passing game also depends on the QB. The limitations on the passing game (the 40 runs in the NFC CG goal for example) might be an indication of the QB's limitations. Jimmys is a great QB, love the guy as our QB, but he doesn't have the rocket arm that a Trey or Aaron Rogers has. His accuracy outside the numbers aren't as good as other QB's. He's good enough to have a great elite winning percentage, but Kyle has had some unbalanced offenses (read run-heavy in there) for a reason once he gets into the playoffs. Now Jimmy has dueled Brees in the New Orleans game and came out winning - so the guy can pass. OLine may have something to do with Jimmy's lack of deep throws, but more likely than not, it's his arm.
I think Kyle is a good enough coach that if he got a QB that can pass consistently and be extremely accurate from the pocket and make good decisions, I think he won't have any problems implementing a pass-first offense. I'm hoping Trey is that kind of a QB. I think one thing that has hurt Jimmy's development was his constant injury situations (knee, ankle, etc...) When a QB isn't durable and can't play a great majority of the regular season games, he can lose that timing and touch with regards to his wide receivers. Jimmy can also miss reads that he should be making, and that might be the separation between him and somebody like Joe Montana. Joe's reads were psychic. Almost supernatural. He was amazing. Jimmy isn't at that level. He is a good QB. His reads are good, but not excellent and mindboggling like Joe's reads were. That may be the one other reason (other than injury) to where Kyle spent 3 first round picks for his successor.
Feb 14, 2022 at 7:37 AM
- LifelongNiner
- Veteran
- Posts: 22,326
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Especially with a rookie QB. DC's will stack the box and run blitz non stop until we can prove we can run. Or continue to burn them in the passing game. As to Juice's comments, it sounds like Mike McDaniel was the "architect" of the running game over these years and Kyle was the "play caller." It'll be interesting to see what Lynn does now.
Also, with a run and pass coordinator and Kyle calling the plays, Crocker covered this too recently: where is the short game to the running/full backs? We got away from a lot of the quick, QB-friendly plays.
This has become the other extreme of a WCO (same WCO plays and terminology) but...run to set up the pass and no heavy short passing game to keep the chains moving and set up shot plays. And no full use of the entire field and lowest passing attempts in the NFL annually. Kyle seems to be getting away from the very principles and foundation of the WCO philosophy.
I don't believe Kyle has a great deal of affinity for the WCO, or at least the one that relies on the pass to move the chains. He wants to run the ball and run the ball, all the while using some principles of WCO, such as motion and the like, but none of the passing plays that made the Walsh version almost unstoppable. With Walsh, Tom Rathman became a major weapon as a pass receiver. It is no surprise that when Andy Reid went back to the short passing attack the Chiefs began to put up points again.
I want to see Kyle show a willingness to throw the ball by design, not just of necessity when his preferred toy winds down. That will help the OL a ton. For those that are too young to remember, Walsh won SB 16 with a converted guard with anxiety issue that some say weighed about 235 pounds at LT. Walsh made it work by using him for screens and other devices to keep him from getting run over. Had Walsh insisted on running the ball and throwing longer routes, the SB team likely never happens.
Great post! I love these kinds of philosophical conversations. We're lucky to be in position to experience both extremes.
Thank you.
Everybody has their blind spot. Things that appear obvious to others but are hidden to them. Kyle Shanahan is no exception. I believe his blind spot centers around his pride as expressed in his run game. At a time when the rest of the league is throwing the ball, he is dead set on proving he can be different and be successful. To a large degree, he is successful. However, there comes a time when the opponent sells out to stop the run, and if the coach cannot see that, accept that his preferred method is no longer working, and adjust away from it, he will lose. The NFCCG is an example. When the Rams shut down the run, there was no sound fallback position.
There is another part of this blind spot issue that figures into the equation. If the coach doesn't see it, he becomes unbalanced in his approach and the way he "sells" it to his team. We saw KS doing that with his "40 Running Plays" goal. While that goal is admirable on several levels, it is also saying, "We don't want to pass the ball unless we have to." At some level, he is telling the QB that his ability to pass the ball is not really needed, or "I don't trust you to throw it." We saw an example of the latter in the 2019 playoff run. This is a problem both physically and mentally.
It is axiomatic that if you want to get really good at something, you have to practice it a lot. Not only practice it but sell it to the team. Not only practice it but select players with a bias to playing that way - scheme fit. Good run blockers (Compton and Brunskill) that are below average pass protectors. Wide receivers that are OK running routes but outstanding run blockers. Now you have a combination of scheme preference in player selection and practice emphasis and the passing game fails for lack of planning and execution when the running game is stuffed.
I don't know what goes on in practice but I recall Joe Montana talking about the endless repetition Walsh demanded on simple flat passes to backs coming out of the backfield. The ball had to hit the RB on his hands with breaking or altering his run in any way - 12 times in a row. A miss and you start over. Eventually, Wendell Tyler and later Roger Craig/Tom Rathman got to the point they could almost catch the ball with their eyes closed. That is the kind of focus and repetition that must happen if the passing game is to be successful. You cannot put the QB in a critical situation where he must complete a pass, and the OL (remember the OL? That is the title of this thread. lol) must pass protect to give the QB a chance to do his job. However, when your OL is selected with a preference for blocking an OZ running scheme at the expense of better pass blocking, at some point, the passing game is going to suffer.
So when Kyle goes down the "40 play road," the passing game gets less emphasis which leads to less efficiency. We have seen this with Garoppolo. He is asked to orchestrate a run-first offense most of the time but then execute a passing game at a critical point in the game when deception and misdirection are no longer a factor. In those situations, the OL struggles and subsequently, the QB will struggle no matter who he is.
In Shanahan's passing offense it seems he relies on schemes to get wide open receivers but there is not the emphasis on precise routes and the repetition that is necessary to complete those passes consistently. Instead we see routes where the receivers are flattening out their routes when they should be continuing on the same line, or not reading the defense the same way each time, etc. All of those things must be practiced time and time again if the passing game is to be more than just a virtual Hail Mary when the running game did not move the chains.
Finally, all this works on the psyche of the QB (and the OL) and when the psyche breaks down, even in someone as mentally tough as Garoppolo, and eventually it will, the performance will fail as well. This is where I am proposing Kyle has a blind spot that is hurting the overall performance of the offense - creating an imbalance in the offense that makes consistently efficient performance harder than it should be. In another thread, someone suggested that Garoppolo's psyche had been broken down playing in this system. I agree...but that is for another post in another thread.
...now on to yard work...
I love the obsessive attention to detail but teams aren't even allowed to practice to that degree. All kinds of limitations on time.
However if this run preference were true, why didn't this happen in Houston or Atlanta? The play calls are a function of the ability of the QB.
Feb 14, 2022 at 7:48 AM
- OnTheClock
- Hall of Fame
- Posts: 36,347
Originally posted by LasVegasWally:Originally posted by Wubbie:I'm calling it right now that when Trey starts full-time, people are gonna love the big plays… the improvisation… the huge throws he makes on the intermediate and deep stuff…
But there's also gonna be a lot of "C'mon Trey, quit holding the ball so long and get it out there."
Gonna take some time for him to learn to read defenses and get the ball out as fast as Jimmy did. And I think the offensive line might take some heat for it, tbh.
It'll be a process.
Good post
I can definitely see that happening. It would be asking A LOT to expect Lance to immediately be able to recognize everything, especially presnap, that an 8 year NFL veteran would.
I fully expect him to take some 'inexperience' sacks at times where he doesn't want to give the ball away by making the wrong read.
Feb 14, 2022 at 9:05 AM
- m_brockalexander
- Veteran
- Posts: 13,185
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by LasVegasWally:
Originally posted by Wubbie:
I'm calling it right now that when Trey starts full-time, people are gonna love the big plays… the improvisation… the huge throws he makes on the intermediate and deep stuff…
But there's also gonna be a lot of "C'mon Trey, quit holding the ball so long and get it out there."
Gonna take some time for him to learn to read defenses and get the ball out as fast as Jimmy did. And I think the offensive line might take some heat for it, tbh.
It'll be a process.
Good post
I can definitely see that happening. It would be asking A LOT to expect Lance to immediately be able to recognize everything, especially presnap, that an 8 year NFL veteran would.
I fully expect him to take some 'inexperience' sacks at times where he doesn't want to give the ball away by making the wrong read.
One thing we can hope are different about Lance vs. Garappolo. Hope Trey will learn early that it is OK to throw the ball away. If he is under pressure and he can't make the play with his legs, he's got to learn to throw the ball away. Don't think Jimmy ever learned that lesson.
Feb 14, 2022 at 11:21 AM
- NCommand
- Hall of Fame
- Posts: 123,330
Originally posted by m_brockalexander:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by LasVegasWally:
Originally posted by Wubbie:
I'm calling it right now that when Trey starts full-time, people are gonna love the big plays… the improvisation… the huge throws he makes on the intermediate and deep stuff…
But there's also gonna be a lot of "C'mon Trey, quit holding the ball so long and get it out there."
Gonna take some time for him to learn to read defenses and get the ball out as fast as Jimmy did. And I think the offensive line might take some heat for it, tbh.
It'll be a process.
Good post
I can definitely see that happening. It would be asking A LOT to expect Lance to immediately be able to recognize everything, especially presnap, that an 8 year NFL veteran would.
I fully expect him to take some 'inexperience' sacks at times where he doesn't want to give the ball away by making the wrong read.
One thing we can hope are different about Lance vs. Garappolo. Hope Trey will learn early that it is OK to throw the ball away. If he is under pressure and he can't make the play with his legs, he's got to learn to throw the ball away. Don't think Jimmy ever learned that lesson.
100%. The problem with young athletic QB's is fighting that hero-tendency. He's got the ability to make up for it on the next down. If he can learn to throw it away, that'll be a huge part of his development.
Feb 14, 2022 at 12:04 PM
- Waterbear
- Veteran
- Posts: 18,082
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by m_brockalexander:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by LasVegasWally:
Originally posted by Wubbie:
I'm calling it right now that when Trey starts full-time, people are gonna love the big plays… the improvisation… the huge throws he makes on the intermediate and deep stuff…
But there's also gonna be a lot of "C'mon Trey, quit holding the ball so long and get it out there."
Gonna take some time for him to learn to read defenses and get the ball out as fast as Jimmy did. And I think the offensive line might take some heat for it, tbh.
It'll be a process.
Good post
I can definitely see that happening. It would be asking A LOT to expect Lance to immediately be able to recognize everything, especially presnap, that an 8 year NFL veteran would.
I fully expect him to take some 'inexperience' sacks at times where he doesn't want to give the ball away by making the wrong read.
One thing we can hope are different about Lance vs. Garappolo. Hope Trey will learn early that it is OK to throw the ball away. If he is under pressure and he can't make the play with his legs, he's got to learn to throw the ball away. Don't think Jimmy ever learned that lesson.
100%. The problem with young athletic QB's is fighting that hero-tendency. He's got the ability to make up for it on the next down. If he can learn to throw it away, that'll be a huge part of his development.
That's exactly the reason I wanted Lance over Fields. I think he understands that mindset better than Fields who will try to run around and eventually take a sack.
If anything… we're going to have to work with Trey to take more risks.
Feb 14, 2022 at 12:14 PM
- FredFlintstone
- Veteran
- Posts: 45,711
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by m_brockalexander:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by LasVegasWally:
Originally posted by Wubbie:
I'm calling it right now that when Trey starts full-time, people are gonna love the big plays… the improvisation… the huge throws he makes on the intermediate and deep stuff…
But there's also gonna be a lot of "C'mon Trey, quit holding the ball so long and get it out there."
Gonna take some time for him to learn to read defenses and get the ball out as fast as Jimmy did. And I think the offensive line might take some heat for it, tbh.
It'll be a process.
Good post
I can definitely see that happening. It would be asking A LOT to expect Lance to immediately be able to recognize everything, especially presnap, that an 8 year NFL veteran would.
I fully expect him to take some 'inexperience' sacks at times where he doesn't want to give the ball away by making the wrong read.
One thing we can hope are different about Lance vs. Garappolo. Hope Trey will learn early that it is OK to throw the ball away. If he is under pressure and he can't make the play with his legs, he's got to learn to throw the ball away. Don't think Jimmy ever learned that lesson.
100%. The problem with young athletic QB's is fighting that hero-tendency. He's got the ability to make up for it on the next down. If he can learn to throw it away, that'll be a huge part of his development.
I don't think I ever seen Jimmy in his 5 years here EVER throw the ball away except the game 2 weeks ago when he threw it way when he was near close to get dragged down.