Great Inside Linebackers are a luxury

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by pd24:
I know we had some great ones, but to me they are the least important part on the defense. If you build a great front 5 in our case and a sound secondary that doesn't give up the big play you can get by and still have a dominant defense with one good to great ILB and one serviceable ILB or even to decent ILB's.

Our defense evolved over the years. It was 1st built around Willis because he was great and then Bowman became great so you build around your best players. Now hopefully we have two great OLB'S in Aldon and Lynch.

We should still add at least 1 D lineman, 1 corner, and an ILB, but I would be ok with adding the ILB in the 3rd or 4th rounds instead of spending a high pick on one when a better player is on the board.

I agree. Remember Brandon Moore? He had to step in for Willis for a bit and put up great numbers. Wilhoite looked good last year. Borland was on pace to put up 180+ tackles! Hell, even Moody looked good. That's not to say Willis and Bowman "together" on the field at the same time weren't special but production-wise, it IS the one position you can step into as a rookie and ball out and put up great numbers in our defense. Also, Fangio is gone so I expect we'll see less of the ILB's stuck in coverage and more of one of them substituted for a DB (of which we have a plethora of).

True. Larry grant stepped in for willis also and played great. Still love to have bowman back though, not all linebackers return a td 90 yards to close out the final game in a historic stadium :-)

I see a lot of ppl saying how great back ups were filling in for Willis and bowman which I agree but a lot of credit for that has to goto our great dline we have had..Aldon cowboy raymac and brooks while in the Nickle were great and put pressure with out blitzing..

Originally posted by DonnieDarko:

Originally posted by SaksV:
Derek Smith was solid until he lost his eyesight.

Donovan McNabb hasn't forgotten him

WOW ...that game was a bloody fist fight ...good memories

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by kawika13:


thl. did u want Baalk to nab a DE/DT b/c you are not sold on Tank and Dial being the future 5 techniques?

I feel putting all the faith into those two players is not wise considering how much dropoff in production is about to take place to the DE position (RayMac, Justin). Dial and Tank have potential to be good, but if they don't pan out to be excellent starters, then it's wise to have a dynamite prospect to ensure that the DE position remains a strength. I feel Tank/Dial can be, at the very least, adequate. Just personal preference, but adequate is not enough. I'd like the DEs to be considered a true strength of the front7. We are all shell shocked with the recent retirements of two ILBs, but if Justin retires he will be the biggest loss in 2015 in terms of contribution on the field.

This is especially true. I still have DE as a top need as well. Carradine has the skill set to be very good, Dial, could be a monster force in the run game and Dockette should have a field day pass rushing from both spots and inside as a DT. And yes, Dorsey can play DE, TJE, etc. But we run a 3-4. Everything starts with the front 3 so the more talent the better...and the better the OLB/ILB/DB's look, no doubt.

Originally posted by beatintina49:
True. Larry grant stepped in for willis also and played great. Still love to have bowman back though, not all linebackers return a td 90 yards to close out the final game in a historic stadium :-)

Very true! Having Bowman back to form would be HUGE for us in more ways than one!

Anyone know if Shayne Skov is ever gonna step up and have a chance to play?

BTW I actually feel pretty ok with Bowman and Wilhoite in the middle. Bowman was better than Willis during the last season they played together IMO(and to be honest it kind of bugged me because Willis was my favorite player), and Wilhoite played decently for most of last season anyway. We have already seen life without Willis and Bowman, and we did alright. I'm sure we will do fine with Bowman and Wilhoite or whoever manages to outplay Wilhoite. This defense still has a lot of talent(Aldon, Reid, Justin if he doesn't retire, Dockett, Lynch, Brooks, etc).

Originally posted by WillistheWall:
Anyone know if Shayne Skov is ever gonna step up and have a chance to play?

BTW I actually feel pretty ok with Bowman and Wilhoite in the middle. Bowman was better than Willis during the last season they played together IMO(and to be honest it kind of bugged me because Willis was my favorite player), and Wilhoite played decently for most of last season anyway. We have already seen life without Willis and Bowman, and we did alright. I'm sure we will do fine with Bowman and Wilhoite or whoever manages to outplay Wilhoite. This defense still has a lot of talent(Aldon, Reid, Justin if he doesn't retire, Dockett, Lynch, Brooks, etc).

I was just looking at his draft profile. I'm sure DeUh could provide much more insight but take a look:

OVERVIEW Highly recruited out of New York, where he also lettered in basketball and track and field. Played all 13 games as a true freshman in 2009, starting the final seven at Will linebacker, and recorded 62 tackles, three for loss and zero sacks with a pass breakup. In '10, moved to inside linebacker in the Cardinal's 3-4 scheme and was the leading tackler -- posted 84-10.5-7.5 with five pass breakups and two forced fumbles. Missed the first two games of the season while nursing a bursa sac injury. In '11, managed 19-5-1.5 with a pass breakup in three starts before tearing his ACL and MCL and breaking the tibia in his left leg (required three surgeries). Was arrested for DUI in February '12 and was suspended for the season opener against San Jose State. On the season, started 13 games at ILB and totaled 81-9-2.5 with a pass breakup. Was a Butkus Award finalist and the Cardinal's leading tackler for the third time in '13 when he started all 14 games and registered 109-13-5.5 with four pass breakups and three forced fumbles. Team captain. Was medically excluded at the NFL Scouting Combine (left calf).

STRENGTHS Outstanding instincts and recognition -- plays much faster than he clocks on a stopwatch. Goes full throttle and plays very hard. Times up the blitz extremely well. Explosive tackler. Alert in coverage. Intense emotional leader. Vocal leader. Has a love for the game and it shows. Ideal special-teams temperament. Fluent in Spanish.

WEAKNESSES Marginal foot speed -- limited twitch and agility to adjust to movement in coverage and could be exposed by NFL backs and tight ends (though still does not look fully recovered from ACL injury). Has very short arms. Can play with too much abandon and recklessly miss some tackles flying to the ball (out of control). Long-term durability is a concern -- has already had multiple knee surgeries.

DRAFT PROJECTION Rounds 4-5

BOTTOM LINE A ballhawking, two-down Mike linebacker with a natural feel for the game, Skov has still not returned to pre-injury form and does not have full plant strength in his knee.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2014/profiles/shayne-skov?id=2543753

STRENGTHS Ideal size and temperament for the inside linebacker position. Possesses broad shoulders, a trim middle and thick lower-body. Terrific instincts and physicality. A tone-setter in the middle, who frequently made big plays at key moments for the Cardinal. Demonstrated more explosiveness in 2013, in his second season removed from a torn ACL. Explodes through holes in the offensive line to make emphatic tackles in the backfield. One of Skov's greatest attributes has always been aggression in taking on and shedding blockers in the hole. Displayed greater patience in 2013 when breaking down with ball-carriers in the open field because he has regained his explosive closing ability. This has led to less lunging by Skov and more secure textbook tackling. Voted a team captain.

WEAKNESSES Likely limited to inside linebacker duties in a 3-4 alignment due to the fact that he does not possess ideal speed to beat backs to the edge, nor the fluidity for extensive coverage responsibilities. Working to break a bad habit of lunging. Over-aggression caused Skov to take himself out of too many plays early in his career. Torn ACL in 2011, although he showed regained explosion in '13.

COMPARES TO David Harris, New York Jets - Like the Jets' standout inside linebacker, Skov's value lies with his instincts and physicality, especially as a run-stuffer. He's a fiery competitor who will quickly emerge as a fan favorite, even if his lack of ideal athleticism limits his role.

--Rob Rang

PLAYER OVERVIEW Skov signed with Stanford as a highly regarded recruit and immediately stood out, appearing in 13 games with seven starts in 2009. He led Stanford with 84 tackles in 2010, but suffered a torn ACL the following season. Skov returned to the field in 2012, but didn't appear to regain his full explosion until the start of his senior year - but what a final season it was. Easing concerns about his health, Skov started all 14 games, leading a highly instinctive and physical Cardinal defense with 109 tackles, including 13 for loss, 5.5 sacks and three forced fumbles. Best of all, Skov seemed to rise to the occasion in Stanford's biggest games, recording nine tackles (including two for loss) and two forced fumbles against a speedy Oregon offense, a team-high nine tackles (including eight solos) against Arizona State in the Pac-12 Championship Game and nine tackles, including three for loss, a sack and a forced fumble against Michigan State in the Rose Bowl. Skov's physicality and penchant for the big play will earn him high marks. But a lack of speed could limit him to teams operating out of a traditional 3-4 alignment (like the one in which he starred at Stanford). Further, with the NFL increasingly turning towards the passing game, Skov's role could be limited to just first and second down.

So basically, he was projected to go in the 4th round (Borland was projected to go in the 3/4th round as well) but he got derailed d/t the injury so already, he was seen as much more talented than Larry Grant and Michael Wilhoite coming in. With a year of training and getting 100% healthy after a stellar 2013 campaign, and with his size (6'3" 250+), I'm excited to see him play the TED (defensive fullback) in our 3-4 and see how he does next to Bowman and compete with Wilhoite (Wilhoite ran a 4.70 coming out and he's 28 years old now while Skov ran around 4.90 but "plays much faster than his 40-time"). It sounds like he's best suited for the TED in our 3-4 (defensive fullback), no doubt, but the TED and MIKE can be and are very interchangeable in our 3-4 defense as well. His height could help aid in downfield coverage of taller TE's at times even if he's not a burner. Great leader and rises up in the biggest games. He's got a REAL shot this year to shine esp. now that he'll be given a real opportunity here. Look out Michael!

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by WillistheWall:
Anyone know if Shayne Skov is ever gonna step up and have a chance to play?

BTW I actually feel pretty ok with Bowman and Wilhoite in the middle. Bowman was better than Willis during the last season they played together IMO(and to be honest it kind of bugged me because Willis was my favorite player), and Wilhoite played decently for most of last season anyway. We have already seen life without Willis and Bowman, and we did alright. I'm sure we will do fine with Bowman and Wilhoite or whoever manages to outplay Wilhoite. This defense still has a lot of talent(Aldon, Reid, Justin if he doesn't retire, Dockett, Lynch, Brooks, etc).

I was just looking at his draft profile. I'm sure DeUh could provide much more insight but take a look:

OVERVIEW Highly recruited out of New York, where he also lettered in basketball and track and field. Played all 13 games as a true freshman in 2009, starting the final seven at Will linebacker, and recorded 62 tackles, three for loss and zero sacks with a pass breakup. In '10, moved to inside linebacker in the Cardinal's 3-4 scheme and was the leading tackler -- posted 84-10.5-7.5 with five pass breakups and two forced fumbles. Missed the first two games of the season while nursing a bursa sac injury. In '11, managed 19-5-1.5 with a pass breakup in three starts before tearing his ACL and MCL and breaking the tibia in his left leg (required three surgeries). Was arrested for DUI in February '12 and was suspended for the season opener against San Jose State. On the season, started 13 games at ILB and totaled 81-9-2.5 with a pass breakup. Was a Butkus Award finalist and the Cardinal's leading tackler for the third time in '13 when he started all 14 games and registered 109-13-5.5 with four pass breakups and three forced fumbles. Team captain. Was medically excluded at the NFL Scouting Combine (left calf).

STRENGTHS Outstanding instincts and recognition -- plays much faster than he clocks on a stopwatch. Goes full throttle and plays very hard. Times up the blitz extremely well. Explosive tackler. Alert in coverage. Intense emotional leader. Vocal leader. Has a love for the game and it shows. Ideal special-teams temperament. Fluent in Spanish.

WEAKNESSES Marginal foot speed -- limited twitch and agility to adjust to movement in coverage and could be exposed by NFL backs and tight ends (though still does not look fully recovered from ACL injury). Has very short arms. Can play with too much abandon and recklessly miss some tackles flying to the ball (out of control). Long-term durability is a concern -- has already had multiple knee surgeries.

DRAFT PROJECTION Rounds 4-5

BOTTOM LINE A ballhawking, two-down Mike linebacker with a natural feel for the game, Skov has still not returned to pre-injury form and does not have full plant strength in his knee.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2014/profiles/shayne-skov?id=2543753

STRENGTHS Ideal size and temperament for the inside linebacker position. Possesses broad shoulders, a trim middle and thick lower-body. Terrific instincts and physicality. A tone-setter in the middle, who frequently made big plays at key moments for the Cardinal. Demonstrated more explosiveness in 2013, in his second season removed from a torn ACL. Explodes through holes in the offensive line to make emphatic tackles in the backfield. One of Skov's greatest attributes has always been aggression in taking on and shedding blockers in the hole. Displayed greater patience in 2013 when breaking down with ball-carriers in the open field because he has regained his explosive closing ability. This has led to less lunging by Skov and more secure textbook tackling. Voted a team captain.

WEAKNESSES Likely limited to inside linebacker duties in a 3-4 alignment due to the fact that he does not possess ideal speed to beat backs to the edge, nor the fluidity for extensive coverage responsibilities. Working to break a bad habit of lunging. Over-aggression caused Skov to take himself out of too many plays early in his career. Torn ACL in 2011, although he showed regained explosion in '13.

COMPARES TO David Harris, New York Jets - Like the Jets' standout inside linebacker, Skov's value lies with his instincts and physicality, especially as a run-stuffer. He's a fiery competitor who will quickly emerge as a fan favorite, even if his lack of ideal athleticism limits his role.

--Rob Rang

PLAYER OVERVIEW Skov signed with Stanford as a highly regarded recruit and immediately stood out, appearing in 13 games with seven starts in 2009. He led Stanford with 84 tackles in 2010, but suffered a torn ACL the following season. Skov returned to the field in 2012, but didn't appear to regain his full explosion until the start of his senior year - but what a final season it was. Easing concerns about his health, Skov started all 14 games, leading a highly instinctive and physical Cardinal defense with 109 tackles, including 13 for loss, 5.5 sacks and three forced fumbles. Best of all, Skov seemed to rise to the occasion in Stanford's biggest games, recording nine tackles (including two for loss) and two forced fumbles against a speedy Oregon offense, a team-high nine tackles (including eight solos) against Arizona State in the Pac-12 Championship Game and nine tackles, including three for loss, a sack and a forced fumble against Michigan State in the Rose Bowl. Skov's physicality and penchant for the big play will earn him high marks. But a lack of speed could limit him to teams operating out of a traditional 3-4 alignment (like the one in which he starred at Stanford). Further, with the NFL increasingly turning towards the passing game, Skov's role could be limited to just first and second down.

So basically, he was projected to go in the 4th round (Borland was projected to go in the 3/4th round as well) but he got derailed d/t the injury so already, he was seen as much more talented than Larry Grant and Michael Wilhoite coming in. With a year of training and getting 100% healthy after a stellar 2013 campaign, and with his size (6'3" 250+), I'm excited to see him play the TED (defensive fullback) in our 3-4 and see how he does next to Bowman and compete with Wilhoite (Wilhoite ran a 4.70 coming out and he's 28 years old now while Skov ran around 4.90 but "plays much faster than his 40-time"). It sounds like he's best suited for the TED in our 3-4 (defensive fullback), no doubt, but the TED and MIKE can be and are very interchangeable in our 3-4 defense as well. His height could help aid in downfield coverage of taller TE's at times even if he's not a burner. Great leader and rises up in the biggest games. He's got a REAL shot this year to shine esp. now that he'll be given a real opportunity here. Look out Michael!

Look, I know 40-times are a measureable that gives us an idea of a players maximum speed, but I think we all know that unless you are a RB running a 4.29, TE running a 4.38, or a LB running a 4.4, the 40-time really doesn't display game speed at all.

I don't know if Skov is too slow to do some things on the field. I'll take a 4.9 LB with great instincts and able to carry his pads over a 4.5 LB in shorts any day. Or a player who has the same speed in quarter 1 as he does in quarter 4.

Originally posted by Joecool:
Look, I know 40-times are a measureable that gives us an idea of a players maximum speed, but I think we all know that unless you are a RB running a 4.29, TE running a 4.38, or a LB running a 4.4, the 40-time really doesn't display game speed at all.

I don't know if Skov is too slow to do some things on the field. I'll take a 4.9 LB with great instincts and able to carry his pads over a 4.5 LB in shorts any day. Or a player who has the same speed in quarter 1 as he does in quarter 4.

I couldn't agree more. But based on his assessment, IF he had Patrick Willis 4.51 speed (drafted in the 1st round), no doubt he would have been a 1st or 2nd rounder. Even our own Bowman ran a 4.7 (drafted in the 3rd round) but he too had 1st round talent. In short, keep an eye on Skov. His timing could not be better here and he could end up being a surprise starter possibly.

Originally posted by NCommand:
I was just looking at his draft profile. I'm sure DeUh could provide much more insight but take a look:
So basically, he was projected to go in the 4th round (Borland was projected to go in the 3/4th round as well) but he got derailed d/t the injury so already, he was seen as much more talented than Larry Grant and Michael Wilhoite coming in. With a year of training and getting 100% healthy after a stellar 2013 campaign, and with his size (6'3" 250+), I'm excited to see him play the TED (defensive fullback) in our 3-4 and see how he does next to Bowman and compete with Wilhoite (Wilhoite ran a 4.70 coming out and he's 28 years old now while Skov ran around 4.90 but "plays much faster than his 40-time"). It sounds like he's best suited for the TED in our 3-4 (defensive fullback), no doubt, but the TED and MIKE can be and are very interchangeable in our 3-4 defense as well. His height could help aid in downfield coverage of taller TE's at times even if he's not a burner. Great leader and rises up in the biggest games. He's got a REAL shot this year to shine esp. now that he'll be given a real opportunity here. Look out Michael!

Yeah I watched him play a ton at Stanford and I feel like with a year in the NFL even just as a practice squad guy or whatever he ended up being last year, he should have been able to improve and regain some of the athleticism when he mangled his knee. The guy was a beast in college and made a ton of plays. Our defensive coaches were some of the best at developing talent so I feel like that should help him, and even now under Tomsula I feel like our defensive staff is pretty good. I really hope Skov can step up.

Nose for the ball, appetite for the game. Long shot but it could happen.

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by NCommand:
I was just looking at his draft profile. I'm sure DeUh could provide much more insight but take a look:
So basically, he was projected to go in the 4th round (Borland was projected to go in the 3/4th round as well) but he got derailed d/t the injury so already, he was seen as much more talented than Larry Grant and Michael Wilhoite coming in. With a year of training and getting 100% healthy after a stellar 2013 campaign, and with his size (6'3" 250+), I'm excited to see him play the TED (defensive fullback) in our 3-4 and see how he does next to Bowman and compete with Wilhoite (Wilhoite ran a 4.70 coming out and he's 28 years old now while Skov ran around 4.90 but "plays much faster than his 40-time"). It sounds like he's best suited for the TED in our 3-4 (defensive fullback), no doubt, but the TED and MIKE can be and are very interchangeable in our 3-4 defense as well. His height could help aid in downfield coverage of taller TE's at times even if he's not a burner. Great leader and rises up in the biggest games. He's got a REAL shot this year to shine esp. now that he'll be given a real opportunity here. Look out Michael!

Yeah I watched him play a ton at Stanford and I feel like with a year in the NFL even just as a practice squad guy or whatever he ended up being last year, he should have been able to improve and regain some of the athleticism when he mangled his knee. The guy was a beast in college and made a ton of plays. Our defensive coaches were some of the best at developing talent so I feel like that should help him, and even now under Tomsula I feel like our defensive staff is pretty good. I really hope Skov can step up.

Me too! Perhaps that is why Baalke is freaking out like some of our fans and signing every ILB on the FA market to desperate big-contracts.

Originally posted by English:
Nose for the ball, appetite for the game. Long shot but it could happen.

It is a long shot but it will be fun b/c you know he and Moody will get plenty of shots this pre season to shine so he'll be a fun one to watch. I doubt he beats out Wilhoite (long shot) but perhaps he provides terrific depth and some security for us like Wilhoite did before he became a starter.

Baalke won't sign FAs for big money, or in a panic. He will look to add one or two veterans - like he did with Pears for the O-line, and Cook and Wright at CB, so that he has numbers for each position, then allowing him to draft who he thinks is best available in the draft. Think he has mentioned previously it is about not telegraphing moves.

As for luxury, ILBs when at the level we had with Bowman/Willis combo, can actually allow for a different style of defense. I agree you can get serviceable players in lower rounds, but that probably applies to all positions really. You can't always get a Bowman type in the third. If you don't have these elite guys that can do everything, then you maybe replace them with someone that has more of a weakness, and other players have to cover for that weakness.

Essentially, you have to trust the coaching staff to devise a defensive playbook that benefits who we have. I completely agree with not drafting an ILB at 15, but if there had been another Bowman/Willis in this draft I'd have understood if we did. If you can get an elite player at any position, you don't want to miss that opportunity.

IIRC

Riki Ellison had knee issues coming out of college

He was no quitter

Skov is no quitter

He is fighting back, and back from injury.

Give this guy a chance.

Originally posted by mrwoodz:
Baalke won't sign FAs for big money, or in a panic. He will look to add one or two veterans - like he did with Pears for the O-line, and Cook and Wright at CB, so that he has numbers for each position, then allowing him to draft who he thinks is best available in the draft. Think he has mentioned previously it is about not telegraphing moves.

As for luxury, ILBs when at the level we had with Bowman/Willis combo, can actually allow for a different style of defense. I agree you can get serviceable players in lower rounds, but that probably applies to all positions really. You can't always get a Bowman type in the third. If you don't have these elite guys that can do everything, then you maybe replace them with someone that has more of a weakness, and other players have to cover for that weakness.

Essentially, you have to trust the coaching staff to devise a defensive playbook that benefits who we have. I completely agree with not drafting an ILB at 15, but if there had been another Bowman/Willis in this draft I'd have understood if we did. If you can get an elite player at any position, you don't want to miss that opportunity.

Great post and I agree. The great news about starting camp in a couple weeks is that the coaching staff will get a great opportunity to see how healthy guys are now (Bowman, Brock, Millard, Thomas, McDonald, Acker, Reaser, Dorsey, etc.) before the draft comes. I agree, a 100% Bowman and Willis could do special things and allow Fangio to stick to his base defense. Mangini, most likely, will sub an ILB out and bring in an extra DB now given the surplus we have back there. But Bowman's health is key. If he looks ready to go, Baalke will still bring in a FA such as Spikes or Henderson and then, like you said, draft another high-quality ILB to push Wilhoite for that starting role. Plus we'll get a really good look at Skov this year as well now that he's healthy as well.