Saying Good-Bye to a Legend- The Niners should trade Patrick Willis | Page 12

MadDog49er · 2014-12-17T02:54:37-08:00

Watching former 49ers greats, like Joe Montana, wearing a Chiefs' jersey, or Jerry Rice wearing a Raiders' jersey, is like being part of some strange alternate universe. It just didn't seem real, or right, or __________ (your choice of words). And, yet, the Niners are on the verge of turning the page on a roster full of terrific players that deserve a spot, or at least an argument for a spot, on our best-ever roster. The one I want to focus on in this thread is Patrick Willis, Willis will turn 30 this next month, and let's be honest, his best football is behind him. In the first five years of his career, there was no one better (better than Ray, better than Urlacher/Briggs, better than anyone). He should make the Hall of Fame someday as the dominant defender of the middle, a three-down stud. But, as we know, Father Time has a way of slowing down the best and brightest, and Willis doesn't have the same impact as he once did in his earlier days, He is not as dominant, not the best in the league anymore. He has come back to simply being very good, which is better than most rosters have across the NFL. The problem the Niners have with Willis is that: 1) Chris Borland is also very good; 2) Navarro Bowman is also very good; 3) Willis makes about twice as much money as Bowman (who is four years younger), and a LOT more than Borland. Unless the Niners can find a new defensive scheme with 3 interior linebackers, this team has a problem: Which dude do you bench? Even though Willis has been so good to us, it doesn't make much salary cap sense to commit nearly $9 million this year to Willis, when you have a player at the same level, maybe slightly higher or lower depending on your perspective, in Borland, making a fraction of that amount. As much as it would kill me to see Willis play for another team, the reality of the current salary cap era, the large cap number the team possesses going into 2015, and the list of free agents to either re-sign, or sign from other clubs, and the stellar play of Bowman (in 2012 and 2013) and Borland, simply makes Willis a Niners' legend that is...I hate to say the word...expendable. He, along with Frank Gore, have been the heart and soul of this team for so long, but this will be a new Niners' team in 2015, and the team has too many other needs entering the season to carry a huge cap number in a position of strength. Trust me: there will be suitors in trades. Watching the Texans this year, they have a gigantic hole at ILB. There are numerous other teams who have the cap space (he would surely have to re-negotiate the contract down) and would love to have Willis on their roster. All of this argument is based on the idea that Bowman and Borland will come back healthy entering 2015.

Dec 17, 2014 at 11:56 AM

#166

jonesadrian
Veteran
Posts: 6,015

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by jonesadrian:
yea but 4.8 is pushing it. that diagnosing helps in short coverage, flat coverage and zone coverage
he can't run with tight ends on those longer routes, he's proven that. he's in the right position he knows the route and where it's going he's just literally a step slow and they make the catch. the only thing he could do better on some of those coverages where he was caught against is run faster... and he can't

Agree but I think the combination of limitations matters more than just speed. Comparing him to the two best MLBs in the NFL is a bit unfair, it might be more fair to compare him to a typical old school 4/3 plugger who's taken out on pass defense.

There are areas of concern that I've always ignored but I see him struggle with...wrapping up on tackles seems to be a bit of a shortcoming, pun intended. Arm length always seemed overblown but when you compare Willis' tackling to Borland...there is a world of difference. Arm length is almost 4 inches shorter than Willis and Bowman--8 inch difference in wrapping up. That matters on pass defense as well.

He's definately got some superior aspect to his game, but trading either Willis or Bowman just doesn't make sense unless they received a very dynamic player in return...even then, the loss of leadership would be felt.

Right. Also another thing we need to take into account is he was able to get so many of those tackles because there wasn't another playmaker at his position to eat up those stats. wihoite is not a starter.. well he is a starter but not by our standards at the position he's a great backup
you can get the monster numbers when nobody is there to stop you from getting it because they make the same plays that you make
its not a knock
willis a hof player and there's no reason to replace him with someone who is unproven
yes borland is unproven
the only thing that can make him proven is time.
willis has done his time he is a sure thing we know there is no slump coming we know what he can do.

Dec 17, 2014 at 11:56 AM

#167

crabman82
Veteran
Posts: 17,024

i dont know if i would trade him but i do think he is in decline. i know people will come to his defense and say the toe has been hampering him for sometime and thats why it looks like he isnt as good as he used to be. i buy that to a certain degree but i think when he comes back next year he will look a little better but i also dont believe we're going to see prime pat willis anymore.

Dec 17, 2014 at 11:57 AM

#168

jonesadrian
Veteran
Posts: 6,015

i don't think russell wilson even attempts to stop eric reid from running back that int at the end of the half if willis the linebacker in that situation lol

Dec 17, 2014 at 11:58 AM

#169

Phoenix49ers
Veteran
Posts: 131,741

Originally posted by TheGoldStandard:
Because trading the best and most versatile middle linebacker in the game for a 2-down linebacker is idiotic.

Borland didn't even make it out of this season healthy and yet people are so sure he can replace a perennial all-pro? Not to mention an all-pro who plays a different position, a position that Borland cannot even attempt to play. Unless you want to watch Borland try to man up on tight ends like Pat does in our scheme. Get a grip people, how many 100 yard rushers did we give up with Borland in the lineup? Making tackles 8 yards down the field does not make you a superstar.

Once again, that had more to do with the lack of an actual NT than anything else. Neither Bowman nor Willis would look so hot with the RB getting into the 2nd level so often.

I also think you're underrating the amount of times Borland stuffed people right at the line or even behind the line. He did a damn good job, particularly for a rookie and I'm not sure why some are trying to take that away from him. The run was being held in check until pretty much the moment Williams went down, that is when teams really started gashing the 49ers. It was no surprise that the Giants started being able to actually run the football in the 2nd half of that game when Williams went down in the 1st half.

Dec 17, 2014 at 11:59 AM

#170

Phoenix49ers
Veteran
Posts: 131,741

Originally posted by crabman82:
i dont know if i would trade him but i do think he is in decline. i know people will come to his defense and say the toe has been hampering him for sometime and thats why it looks like he isnt as good as he used to be. i buy that to a certain degree but i think when he comes back next year he will look a little better but i also dont believe we're going to see prime pat willis anymore.

Even if so, he's still one of the best ILB's in football. I think 49ers fans should be happy that this team has good depth at ILB because there's no telling what Bowman will look like when he gets back and if he's not playing to the same level, keeping Willis is a definite must, at least through next season.

Dec 17, 2014 at 12:00 PM

#171

cciowa
Veteran
Posts: 60,541

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by WRATHman44:

Originally posted by TheRambler:

Originally posted by 9erReign:
lol a new low for Niner Talk and the HOF.

Seriously, did no one see the Seahawks and freaking RAIDERS murder us by throwing at our ILB coverage? Does anyone think that happens with Willis back there? Do you think teams would stop exploiting that, and can anyone imagine what we'd have to do with our safeties to compensate for that weakness? It's more than tackles and the occasional splash play. No one can Willis but Willis.

Let me see, I remember a previous time we traded a key player on the D. Chap called Haley. That worked out well. We didn't get rid of him a year too late.

Mr Baalke, (in the highly unlikely event you read this) take no notice of us.Thank you.

put lott up there to. craig needed to go cuz his play was really bad that year leading up to the fumble, but they had no plan to replace him, same thing when they watters left.

Dec 17, 2014 at 12:00 PM

#172

susweel
Hall of Nepal
Posts: 122,030

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by TheGoldStandard:
Because trading the best and most versatile middle linebacker in the game for a 2-down linebacker is idiotic.

Borland didn't even make it out of this season healthy and yet people are so sure he can replace a perennial all-pro? Not to mention an all-pro who plays a different position, a position that Borland cannot even attempt to play. Unless you want to watch Borland try to man up on tight ends like Pat does in our scheme. Get a grip people, how many 100 yard rushers did we give up with Borland in the lineup? Making tackles 8 yards down the field does not make you a superstar.

Once again, that had more to do with the lack of an actual NT than anything else. Neither Bowman nor Willis would look so hot with the RB getting into the 2nd level so often.

I also think you're underrating the amount of times Borland stuffed people right at the line or even behind the line. He did a damn good job, particularly for a rookie and I'm not sure why some are trying to take that away from him. The run was being held in check until pretty much the moment Williams went down, that is when teams really started gashing the 49ers. It was no surprise that the Giants started being able to actually run the football in the 2nd half of that game when Williams went down in the 1st half.

He's a good back up and special teams, not a real starter due to limited range.

Dec 17, 2014 at 12:00 PM

#173

dtg_9er
Veteran
Posts: 33,204

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
The bigger issue IMO has been the lack of a true NT. Once Williams went down, the floodgates just opened up. Offenses had so many spots to attack it just became too much.

It drove me crazy in the Seattle game when the announcers kept saying how great the Seahawks running game is...not that they are bad...but they failed to point out the 9ers were without the two starting MLBs and 1st and 2nd string NTs. It was amazing that the D played as well as they did.

Edit: Can you imagine how frustrated Justin Smith is?

[ Edited by dtg_9er on Dec 17, 2014 at 12:00 PM ]

Dec 17, 2014 at 12:02 PM

#174

dtg_9er
Veteran
Posts: 33,204

Originally posted by jonesadrian:
Right. Also another thing we need to take into account is he was able to get so many of those tackles because there wasn't another playmaker at his position to eat up those stats. wihoite is not a starter.. well he is a starter but not by our standards at the position he's a great backup
you can get the monster numbers when nobody is there to stop you from getting it because they make the same plays that you make
its not a knock
willis a hof player and there's no reason to replace him with someone who is unproven
yes borland is unproven
the only thing that can make him proven is time.
willis has done his time he is a sure thing we know there is no slump coming we know what he can do.

Agree completely. Add in the fact that NaVorro is just right there with Patrick and...

Dec 17, 2014 at 12:02 PM

#175

Phoenix49ers
Veteran
Posts: 131,741

Originally posted by susweel:
He's a good back up and special teams, not a real starter due to limited range.

His range is just fine, people are just being spoiled because this team has had 2 of the very ILB's in the NFL. His range is pretty much average but his instincts are off the charts. He's the opposite of a guy like Aaron Curry who all the physical traits you want in a linebacker, tremendous speed, but had the football instincts of a CFL benchwarmer. Borland is a pretty damn good inside linebacker, not on the level of a fully healthy Willis or Bowman, but there's maybe a couple of other guys in the NFL who are. If Bowman isn't ready to go by the start of the season, Willis and Borland make for a hell of a duo. If Borland looks this way as a rookie, I can't wait to see how he develops as he picks up experience and continues to improve.

[ Edited by Phoenix49ers on Dec 17, 2014 at 12:03 PM ]

Dec 17, 2014 at 12:03 PM

#176

WRATHman44
Staff
Posts: 16,951

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Seriously, did no one see the Seahawks and freaking RAIDERS murder us by throwing at our ILB coverage? Does anyone think that happens with Willis back there? Do you think teams would stop exploiting that, and can anyone imagine what we'd have to do with our safeties to compensate for that weakness? It's more than tackles and the occasional splash play. No one can Willis but Willis.

The bigger issue IMO has been the lack of a true NT. Once Williams went down, the floodgates just opened up. Offenses had so many spots to attack it just became too much.

I actually think Dial has been fine the last couple of weeks. We had guys missing tackles in the hole against Seattle. If defenders are reaching the hole unblocked, with a chance for a minimal gain, the NT is doing his job, IMO. The passing game is where our ILBs have been exposed in the last two weeks. Interior intermediate zones are open for business, and OAK and SEA provided the free advertising.

Dec 17, 2014 at 12:04 PM

#177

jonesadrian
Veteran
Posts: 6,015

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by TheGoldStandard:
Because trading the best and most versatile middle linebacker in the game for a 2-down linebacker is idiotic.

Borland didn't even make it out of this season healthy and yet people are so sure he can replace a perennial all-pro? Not to mention an all-pro who plays a different position, a position that Borland cannot even attempt to play. Unless you want to watch Borland try to man up on tight ends like Pat does in our scheme. Get a grip people, how many 100 yard rushers did we give up with Borland in the lineup? Making tackles 8 yards down the field does not make you a superstar.

Once again, that had more to do with the lack of an actual NT than anything else. Neither Bowman nor Willis would look so hot with the RB getting into the 2nd level so often.

I also think you're underrating the amount of times Borland stuffed people right at the line or even behind the line. He did a damn good job, particularly for a rookie and I'm not sure why some are trying to take that away from him. The run was being held in check until pretty much the moment Williams went down, that is when teams really started gashing the 49ers. It was no surprise that the Giants started being able to actually run the football in the 2nd half of that game when Williams went down in the 1st half.

Yes NT had more to do with the run than anything

Dec 17, 2014 at 12:05 PM

#178

Phoenix49ers
Veteran
Posts: 131,741

Originally posted by WRATHman44:
I actually think Dial has been fine the last couple of weeks. We had guys missing tackles in the hole against Seattle. If defenders are reaching the hole unblocked, with a chance for a minimal gain, the NT is doing his job, IMO. The passing game is where our ILBs have been exposed in the last two weeks. Interior intermediate zones are open for business, and OAK and SEA provided the free advertising.

I respectfully disagree, I think the PFF rankings support that too.

Williams was doing a really good job as the NT this season, I think he was one of the more underappreciated guys on this team, kind of like Kilgore. Losing him was HUGE. Dial is a decent player but not at that same level which is why I was hoping that Dorsey would be back but that's over too. Ultimately I see Dial's best position at DE.

Dec 17, 2014 at 12:06 PM

#179

jonesadrian
Veteran
Posts: 6,015

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by susweel:
He's a good back up and special teams, not a real starter due to limited range.

His range is just fine, people are just being spoiled because this team has had 2 of the very ILB's in the NFL. His range is pretty much average but his instincts are off the charts. He's the opposite of a guy like Aaron Curry who all the physical traits you want in a linebacker, tremendous speed, but had the football instincts of a CFL benchwarmer. Borland is a pretty damn good inside linebacker, not on the level of a fully healthy Willis or Bowman, but there's maybe a couple of other guys in the NFL who are. If Bowman isn't ready to go by the start of the season, Willis and Borland make for a hell of a duo. If Borland looks this way as a rookie, I can't wait to see how he develops as he picks up experience and continues to improve.

which is why you don't trade pat!
you keep ALL of them
3 all pro ilb's>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>2

Dec 17, 2014 at 12:07 PM

#180

verb1der
Member
Posts: 15,613

Originally posted by jonesadrian:

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by susweel:
He's a good back up and special teams, not a real starter due to limited range.

His range is just fine, people are just being spoiled because this team has had 2 of the very ILB's in the NFL. His range is pretty much average but his instincts are off the charts. He's the opposite of a guy like Aaron Curry who all the physical traits you want in a linebacker, tremendous speed, but had the football instincts of a CFL benchwarmer. Borland is a pretty damn good inside linebacker, not on the level of a fully healthy Willis or Bowman, but there's maybe a couple of other guys in the NFL who are. If Bowman isn't ready to go by the start of the season, Willis and Borland make for a hell of a duo. If Borland looks this way as a rookie, I can't wait to see how he develops as he picks up experience and continues to improve.
which is why you don't trade pat!
you keep ALL of them
3 all pro ilb's>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>2

straight hoarding lbs

all eggs in one basket.