If Jim Harbaugh leaves, who do you want as the next coach of the 49ers(All Coaching Rumors

I'm all in for Holmgren. He knows how to run an offense and the results would show right away. He's worked with Joe,Steve, Favre and almost won a SB with Hassleback in Seattle. My only question, is there enough gas in the tank?

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Niners99:

The Bill Walsh era is over. You cant dominate the NFL with his playbook anymore. Holmgren is old, and hes been out of coaching far too long to keep up with todays game.

People need to let the Walsh stuff go. Its not coming back. It was a period of time in the NFL where he caught the league off guard and dominated for nearly 2 decades. But, it has been figured out for the most part.

So you're pretty happy with the Power Run version of the WCO they are running now? Hey...it worked for Schembechler...oh wait...we can't live in the past!

Sorry, just think you are totally off with this post. Clue: Holmgren = alive and only 66, Walsh = dead

If anyone starts opening the crypt then you may be right.

lol you think our offense is old school? We have so many moving parts and unconventional formations. The fact that were built around the run doesnt mean its not one of the newest styles of offense in the NFL.

Mike Holmgren hasnt coached in the NFL in years. You have to stay up with the progression of the league. Jimmy Raye was a passable OC back in the 80's and 90's. He tried the same crap just recently and was totally embarrased.

The cover 2 was built to stunt the WCO. Because its such a great system there are still plenty of teams using it, but not at 100%. Todays game has seen a progression towards an updated Air Coryell trend with more spread.

Mike Holmgren would look like a dinosaur trying to combat the Seahawks defense.

Caught the NFL off guard for 2 decades.



What?


The moving parts and unconventional formations are not effectective anymore. They need to be used because the core concepts are few, and easy to overplay. Our offense is not diverse and balanced, hence we s*ck. Mike Holmgren would cause other teams to instantly back off their keys, and would be effective in the short term.

Longer term I agree, we need a good idea guy, a young idea guy, who has balance in his vision and can adjust.

Originally posted by Jd925:

Great to hear. Yeah most modern offenses incorporate many elements of the WCO. I think at the very broadest level it's more a philosophy of using the entire field (horizontally) and finding space between defenders in the shorter/medium pass game to efficiently move the ball... Then there are the schemes/concepts/routes/play-calling to accomplish that... and then the rhythm/execution/timing...... so a lot of the concepts you mention came out of trying to accomplish an efficient pass-control offense.

McCarthy's offense is rooted in the WCO, but it's probably a very modern version because he seems to attack a lot deeper.. I should analyze their offense some day.. the passes to the running back are more like checkdowns and screens (I have Lacy on my FF League so I recall some plays) and I like watching Aaron Rodgers play. Shanahan's WCO also attacked deeper when Walsh left.

I don't think Harbaugh understands the WCO or the philosophy. He may use some route combinations that are similar, but his & Roman's whole system is anti-WCO so I think Harbaugh fell far from the Walsh tree. HaRoman have done well with unique run game concepts with the read-option and that was the main part of success the last couple years.

Walsh's WCO really used the HB/FB as receivers.

Yeah Walsh never used the shotgun.. because I think it was prone to too many errors on the snap, but modern offenses have been pretty efficient...however you also lose the consistency of ball placement in the QB's hands and I think even that makes a difference in creating a very precise and efficient system.

BTW thanks for introducing these concepts... I remember the chart you showed me on that 'other' thread. I like looking them up to understand them... so the Spot concept was a staple of Walsh, but I rarely see it used these days the way Walsh did. I see the guy Jim Light describe it in his blog when I google 'spot concept'. He explains how Brady & Manning used it, but those are terrible examples. The Manning toss is just a basic pick play, and the Brady toss didn't involve any read to the concept side. Is every triangular read or route design called spot these days? That differs from how I see the WCO diagrams. The Snag route is also a triangular read anyways.... Walsh's diagrams for spot plays I've seen are tosses to the HB with two reads. (He may have used the term for other plays..dunno.. this is new to me.)

Spot/Snag/Y-Stick: Walsh's Pass Game to HB/FB (These are all out of 20 Personnel groupings)

The way I see Walsh's WCO is that the primary reads on spot plays are always the HB/FB toss. The second read by the split-end is a 5yd shallow cross and a turn-in... the corner route is the Alert route (not a read, but can take it when defense gives it)...It's an extremely simple two-read design you can pretty much use over and over again. Mostly it would go to the HB, and secondly the split end for the 5 yder...

A snag concept would be a similar to the spot with the HB running a flat with a 10yd corner route from the slot receiver to keep a high-low concept against the corner. Primary read again is the HB and second is the slot receiver on the corner and the snag route (5yd slant) is the 3rd.

The Y-Stick is a primary read to the FB who motions to an empty backfield behind the slot receiver and runs a flat..the slot has a 5yd corner. It's basically 2 reads between the full back flat route and 5yd corner route from slot receiver. The flanker is option 3 with a 6-8yd slant in the middle of the field...sometimes the HB is split out as a WR to run a clear out to the concept side.

I rarely see HB/FB tosses as primary reads in any modern offense... that's why we rarely see what Roger Craig did with 1000yds Rushing/1000yds Receiving and usually getting 400-600+ yds Receiving per season. Even Rathman consistently had 300+ receiving yds and had 600+ one year.

Spot/Snag/Y-Stick
http://saturdaynitelites.wordpress.com/2011/06/24/snag-spot-and-y-stick/

I don't see why you can't try these Walsh concepts in the modern NFL....what is old can become new again right?

The reason why Walsh's pass game involved the backs so much was because we used so much 21 personnel (2backs, 1TE). Backs in the 80s and early 90s had a speed ad advatage vs the LBers that usually guarded them. So in the dynasty days, the spot concept for example usually involved the TE on the corner, back to the flAt and flanker running the curl if ran out of a normal formation. Now in a twins form the concepts was usually the slot wr running the corner, back to the flat and other WR running the curl. In the spot/snag concepts the flat is a primary so thats why backs got a bunch of catches when using 21 personnel, the flat route was the backs.

Since spot concept can involve any combination of 3 Elgible receivers performing that combo of routes (flat, corner, curl/whip), it lends itself nicely to be run from bunch sets. When ran from a compressed bunch form, the flat that was formerly a back route in the dynasty days is now a slot WR attacking it. Multi WR sets is also the main reason for a decrease in backs as primaries. When you go multiple, you don't need the back to run a 3 man route combo.

This is the main differnce between now and then - personnel grouping and the more prevalence use of multi WR sets. All the core WCO concepts can be ran in pretty much any personnel grouping. That's why the offenses look differnt but are still using the same concepts.

Harbaugh's biggest difference from a traditional WCO is currently we run to setup the pass---walsh and all the guys on the tree passed to set up the run. The most basic definition of a WCO is an offense that passes to set up the run with a timing based passing attack that attaches the qb's feet to the routes the WR are running (primary, secondary, checkdown).

Originally posted by Niners99:

lol you think our offense is old school? We have so many moving parts and unconventional formations. The fact that were built around the run doesnt mean its not one of the newest styles of offense in the NFL.

Mike Holmgren hasnt coached in the NFL in years. You have to stay up with the progression of the league. Jimmy Raye was a passable OC back in the 80's and 90's. He tried the same crap just recently and was totally embarrased.

The cover 2 was built to stunt the WCO. Because its such a great system there are still plenty of teams using it, but not at 100%. Todays game has seen a progression towards an updated Air Coryell trend with more spread.

Mike Holmgren would look like a dinosaur trying to combat the Seahawks defense.

I'm gonna take issue with Mike holmgren being compared to jimmy raye. Raye was passable, holmgren is a legendary offensive mind who last coached in 2008. That really isn't that long ago. The wildcat was the rage in 2008, currently its tempo and a willingness to use some read option. WCO concepts are timeless and holmgren is a master at WCO concepts. If he wanted too he would do just fine.

Jimmy raye had one top 10 offense in his career. Holmgren had 13 top 10 offenses in his OC/HC career with his last being in 2007.

Originally posted by Niners816:
I'm gonna take issue with Mike holmgren being compared to jimmy raye. Raye was passable, holmgren is a legendary offensive mind who last coached in 2008. That really isn't that long ago. The wildcat was the rage in 2008, currently its tempo and a willingness to use some read option. WCO concepts are timeless and holmgren is a master at WCO concepts. If he wanted too he would do just fine.

Key factor is that this team can still compete. Would you want a first year coach with no experience, or someone who has been there.

Originally posted by RishikeshA:

Key factor is that this team can still compete. Would you want a first year coach with no experience, or someone who has been there.

It depends on the no experience guy, but I lean towards a guy with experience. I think those ragging on holmgren are really selling him short. Like I said he last coached in 2008, but he was in the NFL in 2012.

Here are my 3 in no particular order: Mark Helfrich, Kyle Shannahan, and Pat Shurmur. I picked all three of these guys for the same reason... They all have experience and success in running offenses that cater to quarterbacks similar to Kaepernick.

This is one case where I am not surprised by the generally ignorance of fans.

Bevell hands down. I want Kap in that offense and I want Bevell out of seattle.

Originally posted by Irish40Niner:

Here are my 3 in no particular order: Mark Helfrich, Kyle Shannahan, and Pat Shurmur. I picked all three of these guys for the same reason... They all have experience and success in running offenses that cater to quarterbacks similar to Kaepernick.

Shanahan is an interesting one. At this point Kyle shanahan is not ready but he and his dad is very interesting.They knew exactly how to use RG3.

NFL history proves it. Any NFL head coach who has won a Super Bowl. Has never gone on to win it with another team. Holmgren and Chucky are out in my book. We need a wise, strategic offensive mind with a balanced attack and go for the jugular mentality every single game

Harbaugh's offensive philosophy is just fine, it's that at the moment he has a qb who can't hit the broad side of a barn. Those other offenses your talking about have Hall of fame QBs running them.

Take washington for example, what does gruden run a WCO. He has no QB to do it, there ofdense stinks. It's a little better with Mccoy, but it will always be the same. If you don't have a QB then our offense goes no where. Right now ours is in a major slump. I fear it's only gonna get worse before it gets better

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Caught the NFL off guard for 2 decades.



What?


The moving parts and unconventional formations are not effectective anymore. They need to be used because the core concepts are few, and easy to overplay. Our offense is not diverse and balanced, hence we s*ck. Mike Holmgren would cause other teams to instantly back off their keys, and would be effective in the short term.

Longer term I agree, we need a good idea guy, a young idea guy, who has balance in his vision and can adjust.

As is almost always the case, it does not matter what scheme you run. You need to have the talent to execute it.

I personally would like Gary Kubiak, i think he's young enough and smart enough to get our offense going and use Kap properly....If not,Vic fangio and Kubiak as coordinator,,,,,

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by RishikeshA:
Key factor is that this team can still compete. Would you want a first year coach with no experience, or someone who has been there.

It depends on the no experience guy, but I lean towards a guy with experience. I think those ragging on holmgren are really selling him short. Like I said he last coached in 2008, but he was in the NFL in 2012.

Yeah with Cleveland, where he hired Pat Shurmur & traded up for Trent Richardson and Brandon Weeden.