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Week 12 - 2014: Thoughts after rewatching the game...

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  • Giedi
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Originally posted by crake49:
Here's a thought I had after watching the last game:

What the hell is Eric Mangini doing? Is he watching his top tight end play the game and does he have any suggestions in real time like, you know, a coach is supposed to offer?

Because when Davis turns around five yards down field on a 3rd and 6, maybe a tight ends coach whispers something in his ear about knowing where the first down marker. But since we all saw Davis do that and then come back on the next series of downs and pull the exact same stunt, I have to assume the tight ends coach is not that involved in what's going on on the field.

Personally, I think he's not really been a benefit to the TE group. Gotta blame somebody on the lack of the TE production. I'm also talking about the lack of production on the TE free agents as well as Vance.
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by Beezy33:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Right.

37 on the Wonderlic. Straight A student.

"Not smart enough".

He's YOUNG. That's it boys and girls. He's learning. He's getting better bit by bit, game by game.

QB is the hardest position to play in all of sports and you don't pick it up overnight. Its even harder when you are a fantastic athlete and are constantly fighting your urge to use that athleticism to escape the pocket rather than stand in and deliver the ball.

Steve Young had these same troubles. People said the 49ers would never with a SB with him at QB. He figured it out. Ya know how? He stuck with it and learned.

At this point in Steves career, he was still riding the bench. Steve didn't become a full time starter until his EIGHTH year in the le4ague and got to sit and watch the greatest QB of all time for several years.

Colin is in his second year as a starter. Relax. He'll be fine.

There are different kind of smarts that I am talking about. He has a processing issue trying to be a pocket passer. If that is not apparent to even the pro-Kap crowd then it's just blind homerism. I look back to how he was used in 2012 and that to me was his best balance of run and pass. He learned in college and probably all his football life to run first. You cant just turn that off and become an NFL pocket passer with a touch game.

I understand he is young but at the same time he is a little arrogant in with his image and demeanor. Too many modeling shoots and maybe not enough time working on the field? I dont know man. Something just isnt right about him in the long term.

Said it from day 1 I am a Niner fan first and foremost and would love to see Kap succeed for the team but we are in a window of talent wasting away and how much longer will it stay open? If he cant do it with this stout of a team, when is it ever going to happen?


Its not a matter of intelligence. Its a matter of experience.

He was never asked to read the way he's asked to now in college. He didn't run a pro style offense the way Manning, Rogers, or even Russell Wilson did.

He's improving. It takes a bit longer for mobile QBs because they are fighting their natural instincts to run. He's doing it though. It ain't always gonna be pretty but it's a process.


Kap should run more I think. It softens the D. He's not RGIII.
Originally posted by Marvin49:
No clue. I've thought the same. Mangini becomes TE coach and the entire position group disappears. Dunno if it's a coaching issue or a player issue.

Nate Jackson's book "Slow to Get Up" pretty much says Mangini was a horrible coach when he was running the Browns.
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by crake49:
Here's a thought I had after watching the last game:

What the hell is Eric Mangini doing? Is he watching his top tight end play the game and does he have any suggestions in real time like, you know, a coach is supposed to offer?

Because when Davis turns around five yards down field on a 3rd and 6, maybe a tight ends coach whispers something in his ear about knowing where the first down marker. But since we all saw Davis do that and then come back on the next series of downs and pull the exact same stunt, I have to assume the tight ends coach is not that involved in what's going on on the field.

Personally, I think he's not really been a benefit to the TE group. Gotta blame somebody on the lack of the TE production. I'm also talking about the lack of production on the TE free agents as well as Vance.

I see a coach getting paid… thats all I see. What has Mangenius done since coming here…. help with replays last year which was a wtf experience and help with TEs this year which is a wtf experience.

I wish this was an offense that you could sit VD and have Carrier and VM take the most of the opportunity, but we know this isn't the case. My guess is that Mangenius is basically saying " well VD isn't fully back yet so our best weapon isn't ready" ignoring all other weapons and potential. He doesn't get along with players and he is a company man, no doubt Mangina's limited input is putting this offense behind the curve, but don't let that be confused with the only reason our offense blows.
Originally posted by crake49:
I guess you don't know what I mean by "catty." Whatever. It doesn't matter.

But I'd still like to know what ranking an offense needs to be before you think it's appropriate to celebrate a 4th quarter, come-from-behind touchdown. What's the cutoff on that one in your mind? I'd also like to know if you can name ANY quarterback in the league who wouldn't celebrate a 4th quarter come from behind touchdown. Marvin correctly points to Chicago - even that stiff was jumping up and down after a fourth quarter touchdown.


Well ... yeah.... when things are going well, party all you want. Things aren't going well for us. Have you noticed? I don't feel like celebrating when we score one td after 40 minutes of poop eating futility. Do you? Do you feel glad? I think I am so mortified at that point that watching the offense back slap their way to the sideline makes me wonder what planet are they on.

That's just me. I am old school about that. Interesting but I think that you can separate the people that lived through the glory years, and know what a diominant offense feels like, from those who grew up in the dark ages, and don't have that context.

Except Marvin. And you are right to not play the racist card. That's not me. I am perfectly comfortable criticizing white dudes and black dudes when their leadership is lacking. I think Romo has a few of the same issues by the way. How many rings does he have?
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Originally posted by crake49:
I guess you don't know what I mean by "catty." Whatever. It doesn't matter.

But I'd still like to know what ranking an offense needs to be before you think it's appropriate to celebrate a 4th quarter, come-from-behind touchdown. What's the cutoff on that one in your mind? I'd also like to know if you can name ANY quarterback in the league who wouldn't celebrate a 4th quarter come from behind touchdown. Marvin correctly points to Chicago - even that stiff was jumping up and down after a fourth quarter touchdown.


Well ... yeah.... when things are going well, party all you want. Things aren't going well for us. Have you noticed? I don't feel like celebrating when we score one td after 40 minutes of poop eating futility. Do you? Do you feel glad? I think I am so mortified at that point that watching the offense back slap their way to the sideline makes me wonder what planet are they on.

That's just me. I am old school about that. Interesting but I think that you can separate the people that lived through the glory years, and know what a diominant offense feels like, from those who grew up in the dark ages, and don't have that context.

Except Marvin. And you are right to not play the racist card. That's not me. I am perfectly comfortable criticizing white dudes and black dudes when their leadership is lacking. I think Romo has a few of the same issues by the way. How many rings does he have?


Like I said...not attacking your post specifically. I never want to play that card if I can avoid it.

The fact remains though...so much of the criticism I see stems from him not fitting the image of what people are used to...or at least what they THINK they are used to. Favre didn't always have great games, but he's run down the field and celebrate. Steve Young scored a TD vs Dallas and did a victory lap around the entire stadium.

To me, if the offense is struggling and you score a game-winner right at the end...dude...go celebrate. You just did something good. Enjoy it.

Now if they are celebrating and jumping up and down when they are losing by 30, that's one thing. But if they are I the heat of the game I got no issue at all with Kap in there with his compatriots.

Hyde scores a game winner and Kap is the first guy down there to congratulate him. That's what you WANT your QB to do. It wasn't "look at me". It was "Good Job Rook!".

That's leadership.
Originally posted by Marvin49:
1) Kap: I know what peeps are gonna say...and I'm actually gonna cover this with both #1 and #2 today...but I thought Colin actually played pretty well. The INT sucked, but it was really a "throw it up and take your chances that Anquan beats to rookie to the ball" type throws and the rook made a play. 20 of 29, some frustrating drops (more on that later), 256 yards, TD, INT...all in all....not bad.

I already know there are some of you that are probably annoyed already by that analysis and that's what leads me to #2.


2) 49ers Fans/Bay Area media: Begin Rant - So, I was at the game and I took my pops who just happens to be a Redskins fan. He loves RGIII but is frustrated as all hell by his play this year. He and I spoke before, during and after the game and we came to the same conclusion...49ers fans and Bay Area Media are some of the most spoiled and delusional fans in the NFL. I do not paint the brush over our entire fanbase (and for the most part at least not many in this forum), but there were about 20 times I wanted to turn around and tell a few of the guys behind me to just STFU.

An example: It's halftime. RGIII has like 30 yards passing. Guy behind me is going off on how much Kaepernick sucks and how much he's the source of all our problems. Kaeps statline at that time? 10-14, 155 yards, a TD, and a rating of 131. Its indicative of the stupidity that absolutely drives me crazy. After the game I'm hearing peeps talk about how terrible the offense was. All over the radio people are calling in talking about the playcalling and Kaepernicks troubles. I'm just shaking my head. He was far from perfect, but he was almost their entire offense. Despite at least 3 drops he completed 69% of his passes. I'm listening to the radio on the way to work this morning and all I'm hearing is Chris Townsend talk to Jeff Garcia about Colin Kaepernick. W. T. F. Are we watching the same games?

Meanwhile, Gore and Hyde COMBINED for 20 carries for 52 yards and 2 fumbles. Nope...can't be the run game. After all the solution to all problems is give Frank the ball more, right? The simplistic thinking that Kap is the source of all problems makes me actually NOT want to go to games because people are so incredibly stupid.

They show a graphic on the Jumbotron of Kaps postseason success as a runner and another guy is going off on how Kap doesn't deserve to be on the same screen as Steve Young. I want to smack the guy upside the head. In his first 4 years in the NFL, Steve Young had a combined 24 TDs and 24 INTs. Kap has 46 TDs and 17 INTs. Steve didn't become a full-time starter in SF until his EIGHTH season in the NFL. Even when he WAS the starter, SOOO many couldn't stand the guy because he had the audacity not to be named Joe Montana.

Bottom line, Kap ain't perfect and he's be the first to tell you that, but he is a young, exciting, PROMISING QB and we are freakin' lucky to have him. I wish to hell peeps would stop with all the BS about what he can't do and focus on what he IS doing and what he's improving on. Great throw to Boldin for the TD. Another great throw (and catch) by Crab to get into field goal range at the half. Great throw to Boldin (and again, great catch) on the pass down the seam that got Ryan Clark hurt.

I just wish peeps would STFU with the Kap hate and realize the game is about a lot more than one man. Don't give me this BS about his paycheck or the "the QB gets all the blame" cliché BS. That stuff is just the simple minded way to try and make a complex issue simple when it ain't simple at all.

End Rant.


3) Gore/Hyde: On the topic of who is struggling...as I said before, 20 carries for 56 yards, 2 fumbles and a TD. A few things to say on this...Gore isn't Gore anymore. He'll find a crease from time to time, but he's just not the same guy anymore. Love him. He's probably my favorite Niner of all time...but he's just not the same. Hyde still has the same problem with running into the line...but they really seem to have something when they run the read option with him. When the DE is forced to make that choice which creates space, Hyde hit that hole so hard that there's no time to recover. That's what happened on that walk in TD. We need to see MORE of those read options to Hyde.


4) Vernon: I'm at a loss for words. Its like his head is in the clouds. No idea what's going on there.


5) Anquan: Thank god for Anquan Boldin. Thank you Balimore for your unbelievable stupidity. Anquan Boldin has been an absolute Godsend. I was a bit disappointed to see him not really make a big effort at the ball on the INT, but he made up for that in spades the rest of the game. In particular, that seam rout. WOW. He got blasted and Ryan Clark just bounced off him. I never thought we'd get so much out of him this late in his career. The guy looks like he could play another 5 years. Unreal.


6) Parrish Cox: Please God, bring Bruce Ellington back. He's not a great return man at the moment, but at least he appears to have heard of a Fair Catch.


7) Harbaugh: I just have to give it up for that ballsy move of going for it on 4th down on that game-winning drive. Run game had been stifled all day...and they called a fairly long developing run play that very nearly got blown the hell up by Brandon Meriweather as Mike Iupati ran right past him. If Frank doesn't make a cut in the backfield he wouldn't have picked it up. Still tho...ballsy as all hell and a move that I think was more about the realization that it wasn't just the game on the line...it might very well have been the SEASON on the line.


8) Aldon Smith: Thank You, thank you, thank you. A Pass rush AT LAST. He presence doesn't only help because HE can provide pressure, but he frees up everyone else on that line. He's back and he's the same guy he was before. The two sacks were impressive, but there were a few times he got some crazy pressure. On RGIIIs completion to Garcon, I didn't even see the catch because all I was watching was Aldon completely jack up the TE running across the formation to block him. Aldon stood him up and shoved him all the way back into RGIIIs lap. GREAT to have him back.


9) Lynch/Borland watch: First off Lynch got robbed. I dunno if you could do twice what happened to him on the penalty. His helmet hit Reids helmet which bonced like a queue ball into RGIIIs head. That rule needs to be modified. No intent whatsoever and just a wild circumstance. It was even the BACK of Reids helmet that hit RGIII. Anyway, that was a great rush and he got yet another sack on top of it. 4 Sacks (should have been 5) in the last 5 games. He actually TIED with Anthony Barr for the rookie lead. Not bad for a 5th round pick.

Borland was a bit quieter than in past weeks. He had a few really good plays, but he also guessed wrong a few times, got caught up in the wash a bit, and got absolutely juked out of his shoes once by Morris in the whole. That's OK tho...he was bound to come back to earth at some point...and he still led the team in tackles and got at least one TFL.


10) NFC West: Figures. I finally get to the point that I want Arizona to WIN....and NOW they lose. LOL. I guess just gotta let it all play out and stop worrying so much about what the rest of the division does. I keep saying that here every week...and then on Sundays I drive myself crazy rooting one way or the other.


Marvin,

You have the best thread every time. Thank you for the work that you do. It's always good stuff.

1) Roman - at times this guy really baffles me, he is always second guessing himself or if he finds something good he goes away from it. A lot of the formations to me tip off the play and it's not his fault, but we seem to have a lot of breakdowns in running the scheme. Is that Roman's fault no. But it's Roman and Harbaugh's offense, it has no flow, it stinks. It's like the Warriors with Jackson vs Steve Kerr, last year the Warriors had no flow and this year they are flowing and Ding up. RUN QUICKER PLAY GUYS......Why is that so hard? Mix up your run game. Have a back in the backfield with a 4 wr spread, and run out of it. Find an identity and execute. When you run all of these gadget plays that you don't run all of the time, you are going to have breakdowns.

2) The Fans - Yes we are spoiled. Yes we should be happy with the last few years. BUT WE ARE NINER FANS, we have a history of excellence. We have one of the most talented rosters in the NFL, we should be playing better. Kap has divided the fan base. Some our saying we should have kept Alex Smith. We have a right to be frustrated with our team. We have been so close in the last three years. It's right out of our grasp.

3) Kap - This year he's playing better and probably the best he's ever played as the QB, but our offense is terrible. Is it his fault? Some of it is. Is it all his fault, NO. He has more weapons this year than at any time, but we still can't find a flow. So many times, he has easier throws underneath and he goes for the big play. He's like the opposite of Alex Smith. Maybe Kap is afraid of the short throws, because he can't find the touch. Why aren't they running him more? (ROMAN WHY?) Russell Wilson destroyed the Giants with some huge runs. Are you saying we can't do that or are they saving it for later.

4) Vernon and Crab - Vernon is a pile! He's our deep threat and he opens up the offense, but where is this guy? Is he not focused. He says he's not hurt. He has so many damn drops!!!! DRIVE KILLERS!! Michael "I am a third down receiver" Crabtree......the catch he made at the end of half was brilliant, but he hasn't brought it this year. I think if he played with quicker plays we could use his quickness more. I don't know, it's hurt us big time. I hate when the guy whines he's not being thrown to.

5) The O line - We have to get the tough yards when we need them. The 4-1 they had at the end of the game was lucky that it wasn't stopped. If Frank doesn't put a great move, the play is blown up and the game is most likely over. They have played well in the last few weeks after the Rams and Broncos game, but in the big scheme of things, we have to improve. I would almost favor more of a pass blocking line first, with the run second. What good is the hulking oline if you aren't running the ball and wearing the team down at the end of the game.

We got a huge test tomorrow. GO NINERS BABY!
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Originally posted by crake49:
I guess you don't know what I mean by "catty." Whatever. It doesn't matter.

But I'd still like to know what ranking an offense needs to be before you think it's appropriate to celebrate a 4th quarter, come-from-behind touchdown. What's the cutoff on that one in your mind? I'd also like to know if you can name ANY quarterback in the league who wouldn't celebrate a 4th quarter come from behind touchdown. Marvin correctly points to Chicago - even that stiff was jumping up and down after a fourth quarter touchdown.


Well ... yeah.... when things are going well, party all you want. Things aren't going well for us. Have you noticed? I don't feel like celebrating when we score one td after 40 minutes of poop eating futility. Do you? Do you feel glad? I think I am so mortified at that point that watching the offense back slap their way to the sideline makes me wonder what planet are they on.

That's just me. I am old school about that. Interesting but I think that you can separate the people that lived through the glory years, and know what a diominant offense feels like, from those who grew up in the dark ages, and don't have that context.

Except Marvin. And you are right to not play the racist card. That's not me. I am perfectly comfortable criticizing white dudes and black dudes when their leadership is lacking. I think Romo has a few of the same issues by the way. How many rings does he have?

What I noticed was a late-game come from behind 80-yard touchdown drive. That's what happens. And every team and every NFL player who has anything to do with something like that has celebrated and will continue to celebrate no matter where there team stands or what happened in the previous 55 minutes of the game. Yes, I feel glad. And if you, as a Niner fan, don't feel glad watching a come from behind win on an 80 yard TD drive, I don't know what to tell you and I feel sorry for you. "Old school"?? Please. Give me a break. I've been a Niner fan since the 60's. And one of the things I find interesting is the way some fans have let time gloss over the realities of the Golden Age. There were games back in the day where some of those great teams had horrible days, but somehow won the game at the end and when that happened, they weren't sheepish about celebrating because they had spent most of the game sucking. This thing you've got going on with Kaepernick and the team celebrating when something good happens is just some skewed perception you've got, IMO.

And, one more time - it's not racial bias. It's social bias. I wish people could get their heads around this. My guess is that even if you don't know it, the reason you have problems with Kaepernick have at least something to do with the fact that he is unlike any franchise QB you've ever seen. It's social. He has a hip-hop demeanor, he sports tattoos, he wears rap-style clothes, he has that flat-brimmed hat thing going on. You haven't seen an NFL QB act like that before and you can deny it all you want, but from where I sit, there's got to be an explanation for why you find things like celebrating, which literally EVERY team and player do, somehow bothers you in this case.

And again, because you keep pretending not to notice the question, at what point do you think they can start celebrating and it won't bother you? What ranking does the offense need to be at for you to think it's appropriate. Or, is it a game to game thing? Do they need to be winning a game convincingly for it to be an appropriate celebration? Is it unseemly in your mind if they celebrate during a tight win. And if that's the case, how many points do you think they need to lead by before celebrating is appropriate? You might think I'm veering into the absurd, but if your problem is with Kaepernick celebrating, and this is a relevant issue for you, it's natural to drill a little deeper into your opinion about this kind of thing.
thanks for the psychotherapy. It really is just what I said originally. has nothing to do with his hair cut his tattoos the color of his skin or any thing like that.
I'm not a big touchdown celebration kind of guy to begin with. it's juvenile. it's for children. I'm from the Barry Sanders School of touchdown celebration. I don't really like players doing it that much and I really don't like quarterbacks doing it that much and I really don't like our quarterback doing it when we're in the middle of having one of the worst offensive season since he's been installed if not the worst all the other examples you're citing are irrelevant I don't know how I feel about those quarterbacks celebrating all those plays because I'm not thinking about them. just to bring this all back to Earth I think app could show a little bit more gravity on the field in general what kind of thinking it out and he needs to work hard to make it better he needs to tell his teammates the time for celebrating is when we're on a roll not when we're trying to get on a roll. that's just the way I see it I'm not sure he projects that from what I've noticed
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
thanks for the psychotherapy. It really is just what I said originally. has nothing to do with his hair cut his tattoos the color of his skin or any thing like that.
I'm not a big touchdown celebration kind of guy to begin with. it's juvenile. it's for children. I'm from the Barry Sanders School of touchdown celebration. I don't really like players doing it that much and I really don't like quarterbacks doing it that much and I really don't like our quarterback doing it when we're in the middle of having one of the worst offensive season since he's been installed if not the worst all the other examples you're citing are irrelevant I don't know how I feel about those quarterbacks celebrating all those plays because I'm not thinking about them. just to bring this all back to Earth I think app could show a little bit more gravity on the field in general what kind of thinking it out and he needs to work hard to make it better he needs to tell his teammates the time for celebrating is when we're on a roll not when we're trying to get on a roll. that's just the way I see it I'm not sure he projects that from what I've noticed

You don't like quarterbacks celebrating?





I kind of like to see players celebrating. It's hard to score a TD in the NFL. It's a real battle to get there. I understand their excitement.

your contorting the argument. It's about the context. I would hope none of those guys would be doing too much celebrating if there were the 30th ranked offense in the league.
although I really don't care for celebrating too much it's not exactly what we're arguing about.
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
your contorting the argument. It's about the context. I would hope none of those guys would be doing too much celebrating if there were the 30th ranked offense in the league.
although I really don't care for celebrating too much it's not exactly what we're arguing about.

Okay, well then I'll ask you for the third time. What ranking does an offense have to be to make it appropriate for a quarterback to celebrate after a TD? Does it have to be top 10? Top 15? The Niners passing offense is currently I think #23 (up from #30 last season), so I know in the 20's isn't enough for you. Where's the cut-off on this in your mind? Or do I have to go through the exercise of showing you a bunch of photos of QB's celebrating who aren't running highly ranked offense? There were just as many of those. I just chose QB's that everyone seems to revere.
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by crake49:
Here's a thought I had after watching the last game:

What the hell is Eric Mangini doing? Is he watching his top tight end play the game and does he have any suggestions in real time like, you know, a coach is supposed to offer?

Because when Davis turns around five yards down field on a 3rd and 6, maybe a tight ends coach whispers something in his ear about knowing where the first down marker. But since we all saw Davis do that and then come back on the next series of downs and pull the exact same stunt, I have to assume the tight ends coach is not that involved in what's going on on the field.

Personally, I think he's not really been a benefit to the TE group. Gotta blame somebody on the lack of the TE production. I'm also talking about the lack of production on the TE free agents as well as Vance.
Does a seasoned vet like Vernon Davis really need a TE coach to remind him on 3rd and 6 to hook up past the sticks? I would expect a varsity high school player to know that. Boldin doesn't need to be told. Davis had been hurt a lot this year. When he has played he has dropped passes at an alarming rate and doesn't seem to have his head in the game. Is he still hurting or is he pissed because he didn't get a new contract? Don't get it.
don't be pedantic there is no number. celebration is allowed when the offense is playing a lot better than it is right now. the end. so feel free to ask me a 4th 5th and 6th time if you like the last 10 weeks have been an excruciatingly miserable affair that is she in the office perform at its lowest level since 2010. I'm glad that you like to celebrate squeaky wins over bottom feeders like the New York Giants and Washington Redskins. Break out the champagne. our guys are stinking it out on that side of the ball. I'm surprised more posters don't want to hold them accountable cap apologists included
Crake stop wasting your time. Youre just going to go in circles with the guy. There is no pleasing people loke brodie. Had Kap walked off to the sideline insyead of celebrating people would come up with some other b******t reason why Kap is such a terrible person. Wed probably be hearing about how Kap thinks hes too good for the team or that hes not as emotionally invested as the rest of the players.

This is what annoys me the most about people like brodie: no matter what kap does, it'll never be good enough. Kap can make all thenright choices and all the right plays. Doesnt matter. Theyll find something to complain about.
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