NY Giants coaches film analysis

Originally posted by BrianGO:

Originally posted by BenQ:
how did quinton dial fare?

Surprisingly well.

He did do pretty well, much better than when he subbed in for Williams last game.

What our NT's do a really good job of is holding down their guys. They'll engage the center or guard and take them with them to the play. They always "flash color" meaning, you see them hold their guy off while keeping some of their body in the gap they're assigned so that the RB sees niner colors in the hole. This way, they also keep an eye on where the RB is going and when he declares the hole he's going to, they disengage from their lineman to plug the hole. He did a very good job of that Sunday. He showed much better leverage and I only saw him get pushed back once. Definitely a bright spot from a young guy.

Great thread, great info by thl and jdel. These are among my favorite threads.

As a fan, I'm very happy to see Tank get some snaps. We've heard that he doesn't know the playbook and lacks on running plays.

I was wondering if either thl or johnnydel had any time (or desire) to look at the plays Tank was involved in...and if they noticed any of the shortfalls that had previously been reported.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by BrianGO:

Originally posted by zugschef:

Originally posted by BrianGO:
Of course it doesn't hold up. Kap is saving the team on third down. There was one pass to Boldin early in the game that was a rifle bullet, if the ball was thrown any slower, the defenders would have knocked it away. Kap has converted a ton of first downs for us this year, despite the fact that our first down production is setting up our team in long yardage situations.

Well that's equal to an anecdote, but not a quantifiable fact. The point is really how the Niners produce on 2nd down.

Look at the bottom of page 23. The answer to that question is, "not good."

Even worse. So we suck on 2nd downs, go backwards on first downs 67% of the time for the year, RZ is horrendous and we haven't scored a TD in the 2nd half all year. WZ translation - we good.

It's amazing that we've won any games with stats like that.....yikes!

Originally posted by InsertNameHere:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by BrianGO:

Originally posted by zugschef:

Originally posted by BrianGO:
Of course it doesn't hold up. Kap is saving the team on third down. There was one pass to Boldin early in the game that was a rifle bullet, if the ball was thrown any slower, the defenders would have knocked it away. Kap has converted a ton of first downs for us this year, despite the fact that our first down production is setting up our team in long yardage situations.

Well that's equal to an anecdote, but not a quantifiable fact. The point is really how the Niners produce on 2nd down.

Look at the bottom of page 23. The answer to that question is, "not good."

Even worse. So we suck on 2nd downs, go backwards on first downs 64% of the time for the year, RZ is horrendous and we haven't scored a TD in 4Q all year. WZ translation - we good.

It's amazing that we've won any games with stats like that.....yikes!

Yeah, I cover this in more detail on the previous page, post #419. If anything, maybe we should give some love to our 3rd down offense team as they have been saving us all year long. If we can just fix that 1st down production and make that an emphasis, I'm willing to bet you'd also see marked improvements in the RZ offense as well (similar mindset). Go Niners!

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by Jd925:
Yeah that was pretty good play design and TE was wide open. Wilhoite seemed a bit lost, but not sure it mattered.

Other teams have a lot more effective designs that work. I scanned the KC thread where Reid spread the routes on both sides of the field and got a TE wide open in the middle and there were other designs that got people wide open. We see a lot less designs that get people wide open and a lot more jump balls to Crabs on key situations or broken plays that Kap bails us out on.

johnnydel - on that KC thread, one play where you compared Alex Smith to Kap on broken plays rolling to the right. You credit Smith for starting to run forward to draw Brooks, but Brooks made a bad play. He was supposed to stay on his guy on a 3rd and long and really cover until Smith passed the LOS because he wouldn't have been able to run for a first down. Instead Brooks really just let his man get wide open. As for Kap he was going a good job buying as much time as possible and was focusing on throwing. He wouldn't have gotten a first down and all the linebackers were staying back to cover as they should have. I wouldn't say doing one thing was better than the other.

What I was trying to say is that when the QB moves forward - presenting the threat of the run, the LB is put into a tough place because, if he stays in coverage, the QB will have an open running lane, if he attacks the QB, the receiver is open. Brooks didn't do anything wrong on that play, he was on an island and Smith forced him into a no-win situation. That's my issue. CK tends to roll out so flat that there's no threat of the run. The "sprint right option" was deadly because the "option" was the QB's option to run on the play - otherwise it would've been called, "sprint right". With no threat of a qb run, the defenders only worry about pass coverage.

How many times do we see Kap roll right and find that no one's open and just continue to roll right until he throws it away. My thing is, the guy needs to attack the defense and force them to choose the lesser of two evils.

great points! More stuff for George Whitfield to work with!

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by Jd925:
Yeah that was pretty good play design and TE was wide open. Wilhoite seemed a bit lost, but not sure it mattered.

Other teams have a lot more effective designs that work. I scanned the KC thread where Reid spread the routes on both sides of the field and got a TE wide open in the middle and there were other designs that got people wide open. We see a lot less designs that get people wide open and a lot more jump balls to Crabs on key situations or broken plays that Kap bails us out on.

johnnydel - on that KC thread, one play where you compared Alex Smith to Kap on broken plays rolling to the right. You credit Smith for starting to run forward to draw Brooks, but Brooks made a bad play. He was supposed to stay on his guy on a 3rd and long and really cover until Smith passed the LOS because he wouldn't have been able to run for a first down. Instead Brooks really just let his man get wide open. As for Kap he was going a good job buying as much time as possible and was focusing on throwing. He wouldn't have gotten a first down and all the linebackers were staying back to cover as they should have. I wouldn't say doing one thing was better than the other.

What I was trying to say is that when the QB moves forward - presenting the threat of the run, the LB is put into a tough place because, if he stays in coverage, the QB will have an open running lane, if he attacks the QB, the receiver is open. Brooks didn't do anything wrong on that play, he was on an island and Smith forced him into a no-win situation. That's my issue. CK tends to roll out so flat that there's no threat of the run. The "sprint right option" was deadly because the "option" was the QB's option to run on the play - otherwise it would've been called, "sprint right". With no threat of a qb run, the defenders only worry about pass coverage.

How many times do we see Kap roll right and find that no one's open and just continue to roll right until he throws it away. My thing is, the guy needs to attack the defense and force them to choose the lesser of two evils.

great points! More stuff for George Whitfield to work with!

Cadence is another. Now, I know we snap the ball so often right before the clock runs out but I saw Alex Smith get like 5 off sides on his cadence alone against Seattle. These little these can be a big deal against a team with a heavy pass rush or in a loud stadium.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by BrianGO:

Originally posted by BenQ:
how did quinton dial fare?

Surprisingly well.

He did do pretty well, much better than when he subbed in for Williams last game.

What our NT's do a really good job of is holding down their guys. They'll engage the center or guard and take them with them to the play. They always "flash color" meaning, you see them hold their guy off while keeping some of their body in the gap they're assigned so that the RB sees niner colors in the hole. This way, they also keep an eye on where the RB is going and when he declares the hole he's going to, they disengage from their lineman to plug the hole. He did a very good job of that Sunday. He showed much better leverage and I only saw him get pushed back once. Definitely a bright spot from a young guy.

I've been on the Dial Train for awhile now. I think he flashed in preseason, and when he hits someone, they crumple. I'm really excited for him to get continued looks, especially in the absence of Dorsey.

Another win for Baalke!

Would love to see QB pressure like this up the gut a few times a game (incomplete pass, overthrown).

Originally posted by Big_Daddy:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by BrianGO:

Originally posted by BenQ:
how did quinton dial fare?

Surprisingly well.

He did do pretty well, much better than when he subbed in for Williams last game.

What our NT's do a really good job of is holding down their guys. They'll engage the center or guard and take them with them to the play. They always "flash color" meaning, you see them hold their guy off while keeping some of their body in the gap they're assigned so that the RB sees niner colors in the hole. This way, they also keep an eye on where the RB is going and when he declares the hole he's going to, they disengage from their lineman to plug the hole. He did a very good job of that Sunday. He showed much better leverage and I only saw him get pushed back once. Definitely a bright spot from a young guy.

I've been on the Dial Train for awhile now. I think he flashed in preseason, and when he hits someone, they crumple. I'm really excited for him to get continued looks, especially in the absence of Dorsey.

Another win for Baalke!

Yeah, he was one of my rising star pics in the pre season and now he's getting some meaningful snaps. I like him best at LDE but he's doing well to adjust at NT as well. IIRC his "story" is pretty special and his work ethic reflects that as well.

Originally posted by thl408:
Would love to see QB pressure like this up the gut a few times a game (incomplete pass, overthrown).

HOLY SH!T. Now THAT is a bull rush against a very big man. If we can get ANY pressure up the middle like this (even w/o the QB pressue) it will go a LONG way in stuffing the run for losses (rather than 1 or 2 yards) and make that QB step-up lane that much more dangerous esp. with the edges collapsing d/t to Brooks/Aldon/Lynch!

LOL...he damn near took the FB out of his passing route!

Originally posted by thl408:

And that was a three man rush. Justin Smith drawing the triple, Ray Mac drawing the double.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by Jd925:
Yeah that was pretty good play design and TE was wide open. Wilhoite seemed a bit lost, but not sure it mattered.

Other teams have a lot more effective designs that work. I scanned the KC thread where Reid spread the routes on both sides of the field and got a TE wide open in the middle and there were other designs that got people wide open. We see a lot less designs that get people wide open and a lot more jump balls to Crabs on key situations or broken plays that Kap bails us out on.

johnnydel - on that KC thread, one play where you compared Alex Smith to Kap on broken plays rolling to the right. You credit Smith for starting to run forward to draw Brooks, but Brooks made a bad play. He was supposed to stay on his guy on a 3rd and long and really cover until Smith passed the LOS because he wouldn't have been able to run for a first down. Instead Brooks really just let his man get wide open. As for Kap he was going a good job buying as much time as possible and was focusing on throwing. He wouldn't have gotten a first down and all the linebackers were staying back to cover as they should have. I wouldn't say doing one thing was better than the other.

What I was trying to say is that when the QB moves forward - presenting the threat of the run, the LB is put into a tough place because, if he stays in coverage, the QB will have an open running lane, if he attacks the QB, the receiver is open. Brooks didn't do anything wrong on that play, he was on an island and Smith forced him into a no-win situation. That's my issue. CK tends to roll out so flat that there's no threat of the run. The "sprint right option" was deadly because the "option" was the QB's option to run on the play - otherwise it would've been called, "sprint right". With no threat of a qb run, the defenders only worry about pass coverage.

How many times do we see Kap roll right and find that no one's open and just continue to roll right until he throws it away. My thing is, the guy needs to attack the defense and force them to choose the lesser of two evils.

I understand what you are saying, and I think Kap can learn to use the threat of a run more while keeping his eyes down field especially like Russell Wilson, but just wanted to point out the circumstances of those specific plays. Also we have to remember Kap made a game/season saving throw keeping the play alive on the same roll to the right.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by Jd925:
Yeah that was pretty good play design and TE was wide open. Wilhoite seemed a bit lost, but not sure it mattered.

Other teams have a lot more effective designs that work. I scanned the KC thread where Reid spread the routes on both sides of the field and got a TE wide open in the middle and there were other designs that got people wide open. We see a lot less designs that get people wide open and a lot more jump balls to Crabs on key situations or broken plays that Kap bails us out on.

johnnydel - on that KC thread, one play where you compared Alex Smith to Kap on broken plays rolling to the right. You credit Smith for starting to run forward to draw Brooks, but Brooks made a bad play. He was supposed to stay on his guy on a 3rd and long and really cover until Smith passed the LOS because he wouldn't have been able to run for a first down. Instead Brooks really just let his man get wide open. As for Kap he was going a good job buying as much time as possible and was focusing on throwing. He wouldn't have gotten a first down and all the linebackers were staying back to cover as they should have. I wouldn't say doing one thing was better than the other.

What I was trying to say is that when the QB moves forward - presenting the threat of the run, the LB is put into a tough place because, if he stays in coverage, the QB will have an open running lane, if he attacks the QB, the receiver is open. Brooks didn't do anything wrong on that play, he was on an island and Smith forced him into a no-win situation. That's my issue. CK tends to roll out so flat that there's no threat of the run. The "sprint right option" was deadly because the "option" was the QB's option to run on the play - otherwise it would've been called, "sprint right". With no threat of a qb run, the defenders only worry about pass coverage.

How many times do we see Kap roll right and find that no one's open and just continue to roll right until he throws it away. My thing is, the guy needs to attack the defense and force them to choose the lesser of two evils.

great points! More stuff for George Whitfield to work with!

You know I'm a fan of George Whitfield, but I'm not sure the niners utilized him enough. He's the guy who uses brooms to train QBs on pocket presence. That's a great approach and the niners should be doing that continually with Kap, but I remember Harbaugh seemed to dismiss Whitfield's presence as nothing special. I'm not sure it's an ego thing or what. I think people have this misconception of Harbaugh as some QB guru in technique and schemes, but I actually don't think he's great in either. Harbaugh is an instinct guy and a good talent evaluator, but beyond that I don't expect him to be a great teacher in mechanics/technique/schemes. Harbaugh may be decent, but Whitfield is probably better at teaching technique & mechanics. I don't expect much from Harbaugh in the pass game. He's a QB with a linebacker's mentality. He is ultra-competitive and wills people to win, and I think people automatically and wrongly associate Harbaugh with the mental aspect of the game because he's a former QB and it's such a mental position. Don't get me wrong I think Harbaugh is a top 5 coach for the many other qualities you need to win.

This is a great article about Harbaugh:
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11625088/san-francisco-49ers-head-coach-jim-harbaugh-thrives-chaos-difficulty

I'm also wondering what you guys think of this back in 2011: Quarterbacking Made Simple
http://grantland.com/features/quarterbacking-made-simple/

I like simplicity, but I'm skeptical for the reason why Harbaugh got rid of 'sight adjustments'. Also is HaRoman really putting in good hot routes against blitzes because oftentimes it doesn't seem so. Is Harbaugh really just wanting to run a more basic offense? Remember this article was from year 1 when Alex Smith was still QB.

Another theory I came up with is that Harbaugh's most devastating experience was Ditka chewing him out on for audibling into a pick-6 in a loss in 1992:
http://articles.latimes.com/1992-10-05/sports/sp-431_1_jim-harbaugh
Ditka/Harbaugh interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noF-xIf5QjA
Ditka was fired that year.

I'm not sure if Harbaugh after so many years ever got over that experience. Hence I think he 'simplified' the offense so the QB wouldn't really be in a position to make decisions and has become conservative and somewhat inflexible. Remember again this removal of 'sight adjustments' was when Alex Smith was QB and in his 6th year in the league. It still doesn't answer why it seems there aren't good short hot routes unless HaRoman's only solution to a blitz is to throw it long....lol. Also when the schemes are too simple and inflexible, it also becomes more predictable for defenses. You can read and jump on plays because receivers and QBs predetermine what they are going to do.

Fascinating to think about... can Harbaugh's devastating experience so many years go be so deep that it may be handicapping our QB's ability to grow.. what do you guys think?

Originally posted by Jd925:
You know I'm a fan of George Whitfield, but I'm not sure the niners utilized him enough. He's the guy who uses brooms to train QBs on pocket presence. That's a great approach and the niners should be doing that continually with Kap, but I remember Harbaugh seemed to dismiss Whitfield's presence as nothing special. I'm not sure it's an ego thing or what. I think people have this misconception of Harbaugh as some QB guru in technique and schemes, but I actually don't think he's great in either. Harbaugh is an instinct guy and a good talent evaluator, but beyond that I don't expect him to be a great teacher in mechanics/technique/schemes. Harbaugh may be decent, but Whitfield is probably better at teaching technique & mechanics. I don't expect much from Harbaugh in the pass game. He's a QB with a linebacker's mentality. He is ultra-competitive and wills people to win, and I think people automatically and wrongly associate Harbaugh with the mental aspect of the game because he's a former QB and it's such a mental position. Don't get me wrong I think Harbaugh is a top 5 coach for the many other qualities you need to win.

This is a great article about Harbaugh:
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11625088/san-francisco-49ers-head-coach-jim-harbaugh-thrives-chaos-difficulty

I'm also wondering what you guys think of this back in 2011: Quarterbacking Made Simple
http://grantland.com/features/quarterbacking-made-simple/

I like simplicity, but I'm skeptical for the reason why Harbaugh got rid of 'sight adjustments'. Also is HaRoman really putting in good hot routes against blitzes because oftentimes it doesn't seem so. Is Harbaugh really just wanting to run a more basic offense? Remember this article was from year 1 when Alex Smith was still QB.

Another theory I came up with is that Harbaugh's most devastating experience was Ditka chewing him out on for audibling into a pick-6 in a loss in 1992:
http://articles.latimes.com/1992-10-05/sports/sp-431_1_jim-harbaugh
Ditka/Harbaugh interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noF-xIf5QjA
Ditka was fired that year.

I'm not sure if Harbaugh after so many years ever got over that experience. Hence I think he 'simplified' the offense so the QB wouldn't really be in a position to make decisions and has become conservative and somewhat inflexible. Remember again this removal of 'sight adjustments' was when Alex Smith was QB and in his 6th year in the league. It still doesn't answer why it seems there aren't good short hot routes unless HaRoman's only solution to a blitz is to throw it long....lol. Also when the schemes are too simple and inflexible, it also becomes more predictable for defenses. You can read and jump on plays because receivers and QBs predetermine what they are going to do.

Fascinating to think about... can Harbaugh's devastating experience so many years go be so deep that it may be handicapping our QB's ability to grow.. what do you guys think?

Regarding the removal of sight adjustments, I think, and hope, that it may have been more a byproduct of the strike shortended offseason prior to the 2011 season, Jim's first year. Just my hypothesis. I saw a sight adjustment in the NO game when the slot CB on Boldin came on a blitz and Boldin made a sight adjustment to prepare himself for a quick throw. He was not targeted.


I did a quick breakdown that tried to answer the question of whether or not there were hot reads when the 49ers faced 6 man pressure (@NO).
http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/niners/180201-new-orleans-saints-coaches-film-analysis/page8/#post114

Just to mention, there is a difference between a hot read and a sight adjustment. Hot reads are built into the play design of a particular play. For example, a backside slant is a hot read. If the defense blitzes, the QB can throw the backside slant. That slant is run regardless of a blitz or not. A sight adjustment is done when there is a blitz, where the WR changes his route like you mentioned.

About Jim getting blasted by Ditka when he called an audible, I think that speaks more to how much freedom he allows Kap at the line of scrimmage to change plays. The logic being that if Jim ever became a head coach, which he is, he would allow his QB to change plays because he wants some flexibility at the line of scrimmage. When Jim called that audible as a CHI QB, he thought he could change a play to make a big play. It didn't work out in that particular instance, but it showed that he understood the importance in allowing a play to be changed at the line of scrimmage. We see Kap having the freedom to change to/select a play he thinks is best suited for the defensive alignment he sees presnap.

I do think that a truly dynamic passing attack has sight adjustments as well as option routes built in. Having the ability to adjust to what the defense does, post snap, is a great way to maximize the potential of an offense, at the risk of QB and WR not being on the same page. It's very hard to determine if option routes are being run unless the QB and WR were obviously not on the same page where we see the WR run one route while the QB throws an entirely different route. There was one instance this season where I saw this happen. There may have been other times that I can't recall, but this is the one of the top of my head because I had cut this play up after the KC game. Lloyd runs a Curl and Kap throws a Go route.

Here's a play that shows Aldon and Justin up to their old tricks again. This is on the final drive of the game for NYG.


At the snap, Justin attacks the LT as Aldon starts to move to the inside as if he is coming on a stunt.


Justin grabs the LT's outside shoulder.


Aldon fakes the stunt and goes around the outside of the LT who is unable to get over to block Aldon due to being grabbed and held by Justin. The LG, expecting the stunt that never happens, never moves from his original position.


+4 gain.