NY Giants coaches film analysis

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Adusoron:
Jonnydel and Thl408:


Based upon what you've seen historically on film of A. Smith, Lynch, Willis, Bowman and now a few games of Borland, do you think we could more optimally run a 4-3 defense in 2015 to get Borland on the field as a regular? In my theory, we could put Aldon and Aaron at DE, a rotation of Justin/RayMac/Williams/Dorsey/Dial/Tank at DT, Borland would play the Mike, Willis the Sam, and Bowman the Will. (I'm assuming Wilis and Bowman are fully healthy and I think that's a reasonable assumption.) Then when we go to a true 4-2-5 nickel, we swap Borland for Ward.

I'm more partial to a 3-4 defensive scheme for a few reasons, but the idea of keeping Borland on the sideline next year is disappointing. I do not think the answer is to trade Willis like some might suggest. I think Baalke should pounce and get Willis to a team friendly extension to also get a lower 2015 cap hit. I want to keep and play all three, if possible.

Fangio has always run a 3-4 so to get him to step out of his comfort zone, to get Borland on the field, would speak volumes about what he thinks of Borland. I don't think it will happen so long as Fangio is calling the shots.

Setting aside coaching preferences for a bit, because I think it's wrong to ask a coach to teach something he doesn't fully believe in, I think a 4-3 with the arrangement you mentioned would work. However, defenses usually change systems when things aren't working out and change is needed. This isn't the case with the 49ers and I think it would be a mistake to change a scheme, that has been proven to work for this roster, just to get a player on the field.

So what you listed sounds great on paper. I'm not sure anyone can dispute that. But overhauling a scheme that is proven, just to get a player on the field seems risky. I would just put Borland on the bench and call it a good problem to have. His time will come soon enough and it won't be a bad thing to save his body from some wear and tear as we watch Willis close his career in a 49er uni. I am also considering the breakout year for Ian and the extension of Dorsey as they man the 3-4 NT position. I really like those guys as a 1-2 punch at NT.

Depth is never a bad problem.
Having a legit rotation of players that are pro bowl caliber who will get split reps and stay fresh the entire year is an advantage that no other team will have.
We lose bowman and willis we get wilhoite and borland. Aldon went down lynch emerges. Brock goes down cox emerges johnson steps up. Dorsey goes down Ian comes in Ian goes down Dial comes in Dorsey comes back.
Since the season we had to play everyone every snap and they were hurt, we should never go back to that.

Originally posted by fryet:

Originally posted by NCommand:
That's a long-winded way of expressing your point but naturally, I agree! As to the bold, it's hard to say. It could be b/c we're always in 2nd and 3rd and longs or it could be b/c that's what's entrenched in the philosophy...someone likened it to playing the slot machine (lose some money with the chance of making up for it with a bigger payoff). Some could be b/c HaRoman see that as CK's passing strength (intermediate-deeper passing game) or this is the area they see most teams struggle to defend (long sideline routes/comebacks/back shoulder throws). But given the types of routes we run (vanilla), depth (all the same depth or deep, deeper and deepest, etc.), that's probably just the game plan every week.

PS: I'm just going to keep posting this over and over until fans understand the ramifications of this offensive approach:; how critical sequence of play calling is; how one play sets up the other, etc.

Overall:
So overall for the season, on 2nd downs, 63% of the time (124 of 196) we had >7 yards to go averaging 10.3 yards to go. In short, 2/3rds of the time we're going BACKWARDS on 1st downs and putting ouselves in 2nd and longs, which as you know, often times snowballs from there. Fix 1st downs and you fix 2nd and 3rd. Fix 1st downs and you'll most likely have success in the RZ as well (similar calls). Fix RZ problems and we're a Superbowl champion!

Yes, but the reason why it is second and long is because his first down pass was either completed for 10+ yards or incomplete. If he chose to throw a 5 yard pass then he wouldn't be in second and long. Then 2nd and 5 becomes a potential running down, instead of 2nd and 10 which suggests pass.

Personally, on 2nd and 10, I think the 49ers should run before. They wouldn't be facing 8 in the box so have a good chance of getting 5 or more yards and then having a manageable 3rd down.

It's a good take! More evidence to this "chunk" offense is that despite being 30th in 1st down production, we're 20th in total 1st downs. But overall, I think we'd ALL like to see more controlled, shorter passes mixed IN with the intermediate-deeper passing game and running game!

Originally posted by NCommand:
It's a good take! More evidence to this "chunk" offense is that despite being 30th in 1st down production, we're 20th in total 1st downs. But overall, I think we'd ALL like to see more controlled, shorter passes mixed IN with the intermediate-deeper passing game and running game!

Running for 5 or passing for 5 is fine by me. That idea doesn't seem to stick with the O.

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by NCommand:
It's a good take! More evidence to this "chunk" offense is that despite being 30th in 1st down production, we're 20th in total 1st downs. But overall, I think we'd ALL like to see more controlled, shorter passes mixed IN with the intermediate-deeper passing game and running game!

Running for 5 or passing for 5 is fine by me. That idea doesn't seem to stick with the O.

You're preaching to the choir. I'd be happy with just consistent 4 yards on 1st downs!

Originally posted by NCommand:
It's a good take! More evidence to this "chunk" offense is that despite being 30th in 1st down production, we're 20th in total 1st downs. But overall, I think we'd ALL like to see more controlled, shorter passes mixed IN with the intermediate-deeper passing game and running game!

Yes. that is exactly what I would like to see.

3rd Down Failure #5

1st Down: Incomplete pass
2nd Down: Hyde for +4

49ers: It's kind of a fake of the Spot play. In the Spot play that I've seen the 49ers run, Crabs would run the Snag route, which he does here. VD would run a Corner route. Boldin would run to the flat. In this play, VD curls his route, while Boldin runs to the flat then turns upfield. Slant-flat on the weakside.
NYG: cover1 man


Kap completes his dropback and looks left to SJ's slant. Notice how the CB has aligned himself over SJ. He has inside leverage, playing the slant route.


Iupati gives up pressure and Kap has to move. Had this not happened, and Kap targeted SJ, SJ would have gotten smacked right as the ball came. SJ running a slant on the weakside of the foramtion is too easy to predict and NYG did it here.


Scramble for +2. Fumbled FG snap.


Iupati/Staley beaten by a stunt.

Originally posted by fryet:

Originally posted by NCommand:
It's a good take! More evidence to this "chunk" offense is that despite being 30th in 1st down production, we're 20th in total 1st downs. But overall, I think we'd ALL like to see more controlled, shorter passes mixed IN with the intermediate-deeper passing game and running game!

Yes. that is exactly what I would like to see.

More than anything I just want a strong focus on 1st down production. Emphasize it.

Originally posted by thl408:
3rd Down Failure #5

1st Down: Incomplete pass
2nd Down: Hyde for +4

49ers: It's kind of a fake of the Spot play. In the Spot play that I've seen the 49ers run, Crabs would run the Snag route, which he does here. VD would run a Corner route. Boldin would run to the flat. In this play, VD curls his route, while Boldin runs to the flat then turns upfield. Slant-flat on the weakside.
NYG: cover1 man


Kap completes his dropback and looks left to SJ's slant. Notice how the CB has aligned himself over SJ. He has inside leverage, playing the slant route.


Iupati gives up pressure and Kap has to move. Had this not happened, and Kap targeted SJ, SJ would have gotten smacked right as the ball came. SJ running a slant on the weakside of the foramtion is too easy to predict and NYG did it here.


Scramble for +2. Fumbled FG snap.


Iupati/Staley beaten by a stunt.

It's hard to tell for sure, but why isn't Kap looking at the concept (strong) side of the formation? I don't think he had enough time to reset and look from the left side to the concept side (because of the defensive stunt penetration), but if he had watched the concept side at the snap, I think he could have hit VD on the buttonhook play. It would have been close though because he would have had to throw it before VD turns and Kap's throw would have come a split second before he gets crushed by the stunting DL. It is also possible the coverage defender would have seen the throw to VD and made the play.

3rd Down Failure #6

1st Down: Gore for +4
2nd Down: Incomplete deep to VD

4Q 3rd & 6

49ers: SJ/Crabs are stacked, Boldin/Lloyd are bunched as they each run a trail action. The bunching and trailing action acts as a man coverage busting element (Boldin follows Lloyd, SJ follows Crabs) and causes man coverage defenders to back up as the leading WR prevents the CB that is defending the trailing WR from getting close to the trailing WR.
NYG: cover1 man


Kap completes his dropback and looks left. The CB on Boldin is playing with outside leverage on Boldin's Out route. The defender on Lloyd is playing with inside leverage on Lloyd's Corner route. This is a lose for Boldin and a win for Lloyd. On the other side of the field, SJ's defender is pushed back due to the stacked formation and is playing with outside leverage on SJ's slant. This is a win for SJ, but Kap has chosen to look left. ADavis is beaten to the outside.


The pressure forces Kap to roll left.


Kap properly targets Lloyd as the better of the two options to the left side of the field. When Kap rolls left, the pass rusher on Iupati tracks Kap down and hits him just as he releases the ball. Kap is mid windup.


The throw is about 3 inches off the mark to Lloyd.

Originally posted by Adusoron:

Originally posted by thl408:
3rd Down Failure #5

1st Down: Incomplete pass
2nd Down: Hyde for +4

49ers: It's kind of a fake of the Spot play. In the Spot play that I've seen the 49ers run, Crabs would run the Snag route, which he does here. VD would run a Corner route. Boldin would run to the flat. In this play, VD curls his route, while Boldin runs to the flat then turns upfield. Slant-flat on the weakside.
NYG: cover1 man


Kap completes his dropback and looks left to SJ's slant. Notice how the CB has aligned himself over SJ. He has inside leverage, playing the slant route.


Iupati gives up pressure and Kap has to move. Had this not happened, and Kap targeted SJ, SJ would have gotten smacked right as the ball came. SJ running a slant on the weakside of the foramtion is too easy to predict and NYG did it here.


Scramble for +2. Fumbled FG snap.


Iupati/Staley beaten by a stunt.

It's hard to tell for sure, but why isn't Kap looking at the concept (strong) side of the formation? I don't think he had enough time to reset and look from the left side to the concept side (because of the defensive stunt penetration), but if he had watched the concept side at the snap, I think he could have hit VD on the buttonhook play. It would have been close though because he would have had to throw it before VD turns and Kap's throw would have come a split second before he gets crushed by the stunting DL. It is also possible the coverage defender would have seen the throw to VD and made the play.

With VD's man playing off, I agree VD could have been targeted had Kap looked to the concept side first. It is his choice which side to look to. Like you stated, I don't think he would have had time to red light the left, then go to the concept side, even without a rush coming into his face. Those Curls (VD) are open for a small window when facing man coverage.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by NCommand:
It's a good take! More evidence to this "chunk" offense is that despite being 30th in 1st down production, we're 20th in total 1st downs. But overall, I think we'd ALL like to see more controlled, shorter passes mixed IN with the intermediate-deeper passing game and running game!

Running for 5 or passing for 5 is fine by me. That idea doesn't seem to stick with the O.

You're preaching to the choir. I'd be happy with just consistent 4 yards on 1st downs!

It would be better to have some more manageable 2nd downs but that is not the problem. Sometimes a pass goes for 10 or 11 yards and we have a 1st down. Even though we have run the ball well lately sometimes we run on 1st down and get stuffed or pick up a yard or two and have 2nd and long. Sometimes we try to complete a short pass to have 2nd and manageable and it's incomplete and we have 2nd and 10.

The truth is we have moved the ball very well in the last few games just to stall in scoring territory or settle for a FG. We are 20th in the league in total 1st downs which is pretty damn good for an offense that burns clock and limits possessions. Don't forget because of our style of play we have fewer possessions than a team like Green Bay or Denver. Fewer possessions = fewer 1st downs.

In the last game in NY we moved the ball very well until we were in scoring position and then ended up stalling a lot. It was a big chumk play that got us our only TD and helped us win the game. We could actually use a few more of those.

The more you move the ball methodically down the field 3 yards here 5 yards there the more plays it takes to score. That's great for time of possession and limiting opposing offenses possessions and resting our defense but it also means more chances to have a penalty set the drive back. More chances to commit a turnover. More chances for a negative play or sack or something to stall the drive and have the opposing team's defense have a bend but don't brake kind of day which is exactly what happened against the Giants.

We need to keep running the ball well. It's what our O-line does best and it's working. We need to throw short passes and get in good 2nd down situations and we hit some of those in NY. We also need to take shots at big plays as well. Especially if the other team is loading up the box to stuff the run. We need to make them pay for it or we will have no running game.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by NCommand:
It's a good take! More evidence to this "chunk" offense is that despite being 30th in 1st down production, we're 20th in total 1st downs. But overall, I think we'd ALL like to see more controlled, shorter passes mixed IN with the intermediate-deeper passing game and running game!

Running for 5 or passing for 5 is fine by me. That idea doesn't seem to stick with the O.

You're preaching to the choir. I'd be happy with just consistent 4 yards on 1st downs!

It would be better to have some more manageable 2nd downs but that is not the problem. Sometimes a pass goes for 10 or 11 yards and we have a 1st down. Even though we have run the ball well lately sometimes we run on 1st down and get stuffed or pick up a yard or two and have 2nd and long. Sometimes we try to complete a short pass to have 2nd and manageable and it's incomplete and we have 2nd and 10.

The truth is we have moved the ball very well in the last few games just to stall in scoring territory or settle for a FG. We are 20th in the league in total 1st downs which is pretty damn good for an offense that burns clock and limits possessions. Don't forget because of our style of play we have fewer possessions than a team like Green Bay or Denver. Fewer possessions = fewer 1st downs.

In the last game in NY we moved the ball very well until we were in scoring position and then ended up stalling a lot. It was a big chumk play that got us our only TD and helped us win the game. We could actually use a few more of those.

The more you move the ball methodically down the field 3 yards here 5 yards there the more plays it takes to score. That's great for time of possession and limiting opposing offenses possessions and resting our defense but it also means more chances to have a penalty set the drive back. More chances to commit a turnover. More chances for a negative play or sack or something to stall the drive and have the opposing team's defense have a bend but don't brake kind of day which is exactly what happened against the Giants.

We need to keep running the ball well. It's what our O-line does best and it's working. We need to throw short passes and get in good 2nd down situations and we hit some of those in NY. We also need to take shots at big plays as well. Especially if the other team is loading up the box to stuff the run. We need to make them pay for it or we will have no running game.

Originally posted by Adusoron:

Originally posted by thl408:
3rd Down Failure #5

1st Down: Incomplete pass
2nd Down: Hyde for +4

49ers: It's kind of a fake of the Spot play. In the Spot play that I've seen the 49ers run, Crabs would run the Snag route, which he does here. VD would run a Corner route. Boldin would run to the flat. In this play, VD curls his route, while Boldin runs to the flat then turns upfield. Slant-flat on the weakside.
NYG: cover1 man


Kap completes his dropback and looks left to SJ's slant. Notice how the CB has aligned himself over SJ. He has inside leverage, playing the slant route.


Iupati gives up pressure and Kap has to move. Had this not happened, and Kap targeted SJ, SJ would have gotten smacked right as the ball came. SJ running a slant on the weakside of the foramtion is too easy to predict and NYG did it here.


Scramble for +2. Fumbled FG snap.


Iupati/Staley beaten by a stunt.

It's hard to tell for sure, but why isn't Kap looking at the concept (strong) side of the formation? I don't think he had enough time to reset and look from the left side to the concept side (because of the defensive stunt penetration), but if he had watched the concept side at the snap, I think he could have hit VD on the buttonhook play. It would have been close though because he would have had to throw it before VD turns and Kap's throw would have come a split second before he gets crushed by the stunting DL. It is also possible the coverage defender would have seen the throw to VD and made the play.

I thought the same thing. Not sure why...

Originally posted by MC9BEAT:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by NCommand:
It's a good take! More evidence to this "chunk" offense is that despite being 30th in 1st down production, we're 20th in total 1st downs. But overall, I think we'd ALL like to see more controlled, shorter passes mixed IN with the intermediate-deeper passing game and running game!

Running for 5 or passing for 5 is fine by me. That idea doesn't seem to stick with the O.

You're preaching to the choir. I'd be happy with just consistent 4 yards on 1st downs!

It would be better to have some more manageable 2nd downs but that is not the problem. Sometimes a pass goes for 10 or 11 yards and we have a 1st down. Even though we have run the ball well lately sometimes we run on 1st down and get stuffed or pick up a yard or two and have 2nd and long. Sometimes we try to complete a short pass to have 2nd and manageable and it's incomplete and we have 2nd and 10.

The truth is we have moved the ball very well in the last few games just to stall in scoring territory or settle for a FG. We are 20th in the league in total 1st downs which is pretty damn good for an offense that burns clock and limits possessions. Don't forget because of our style of play we have fewer possessions than a team like Green Bay or Denver. Fewer possessions = fewer 1st downs.

In the last game in NY we moved the ball very well until we were in scoring position and then ended up stalling a lot. It was a big chumk play that got us our only TD and helped us win the game. We could actually use a few more of those.

The more you move the ball methodically down the field 3 yards here 5 yards there the more plays it takes to score. That's great for time of possession and limiting opposing offenses possessions and resting our defense but it also means more chances to have a penalty set the drive back. More chances to commit a turnover. More chances for a negative play or sack or something to stall the drive and have the opposing team's defense have a bend but don't brake kind of day which is exactly what happened against the Giants.

We need to keep running the ball well. It's what our O-line does best and it's working. We need to throw short passes and get in good 2nd down situations and we hit some of those in NY. We also need to take shots at big plays as well. Especially if the other team is loading up the box to stuff the run. We need to make them pay for it or we will have no running game.

That last paragraph is pretty much right inline with our thinking as well. Just need to emphasize 1st downs more. Better mix. Focus.

Originally posted by NCommand:
I thought the same thing. Not sure why...

that play flat out sucks