NY Giants coaches film analysis

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by SFFanSince72:

Originally posted by SFFanSince72:
THL408 or Jonnydel,

I appreciate everything you guys do in these posts. I know its been said a million times before, but it deserves to be said again because of all of the time and money (for the NFL film package) that you put in. But back to the discussion about football.

When I rewatched this game via DVR (so just the TV broadcast) it did appear that Kap targeted Crabtree slightly more than other recievers. Certainly this was not exclusive as there were the throws to VD and at least one to SJ and one attempt to Lloyd. But as we saw in the most recently broken down play, Kap targeted Crabtree on the deep out to the left, which was a much harder throw than the hook or curl (never remember which is which) to Lloyd to his left.

So my question is do you think that Crabtree's locker room comments after the Saint's game played into Kap's mind in where to try to go with the ball?

If so, this to me is the massive danger of the media. If so, does this mean that Aldon or Lynch are gonna be held out in favor of Brooks, just so he doesn't get his feelings hurt more? (rhetorical question)

I think we would all like to see some breakdowns of the passes that VD was targeted on. Many of us thought that on a few of those throws that VD only gave half an effort on his route. There was of course his injury and maybe that is still bothering him or mentally affecting his game, but I can't help but wonder if outside considerations on his part are affecting his effort. (Things such as contract concerns he had before the start of the season, how he feels he is being used in the offense, how he feels about his position coach or some of the other coaches -- has VD come out in TOTAL support of Harbaugh...could he be the leak/complainer, etc). I have also felt like perhaps this may have been the case with Boone's poor play throughout the season, but I digress.

I wanted to repost this so that maybe THL408 or Jonnydel might have a chance to comment on some of these questions

1. I have no idea lol....It's possible.
2. I'll be surprised if Brooks' playtime increases. I've mentioned it since the start of the season, but, I'll be shocked if Brooks is on the team next year. His play has digressed since last year. He's not making as many plays and looks slower in pass rush. I see him as the rotational kind of guy with Lynch that Haralson was with Smith his rookie year.
3. I'll touch on that later today.

I know that Crabs and Kap are buddies so there is a danger that Kap will force feed Crabs to make him happy. That is dangerous, but really isn't different from what happens with other QB/WR duos when the WR asks for more targets. The problem is Crabs may not warrant more targets. Especially with other good WRs on the team.

I thought most of the throws where VD looked like he was giving half effort were not accurate. This goes back to the NO game where he was targeted with a bomb and looked like he half assed it when it was just not well thrown so he gave up on it. imo

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

+12 yards. This is one of the areas I'd like to see Kap improve on and show more consistency. Throwing into open areas of zone coverage because he understands what is about to become open based on the routes being run versus the coverage he is seeing.

Not a huge fan of this design. I love the anticipation throw like you noted thl but to me, it looks like 4 TE's all running the same distance-routes and dropping down in a soft hole...all 2-3 yards from each other. If one isn't open, will the others? It doesn't look too challenging to defend either (although the Giants look like keystone cops there)making that window even smaller to throw in to. It looks like Boldin is the best option inside at the top too.

Did something happen over the past few weeks to change your mind regarding this concept? Or is it a better play because Andy Red called it?

http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/niners/179857-chiefs-coaches-film-analysis/#post11

owned

The most impressive thing about Lynch is his sack on Manning. He was held on two other plays and would have sacked him or disrupt him during those plays too. Lynch is tiny compared to Aldoon. Give Lynch 1 year of pro work outs and he will be ripped.

Originally posted by LBSI9ers:
The most impressive thing about Lynch is his sack on Manning. He was held on two other plays and would have sacked him or disrupt him during those plays too. Lynch is tiny compared to Aldoon. Give Lynch 1 year of pro work outs and he will be ripped.

??? He was over 270 in the preseason, now has dropped down to 260. Both of them are around the same size, about 6'5", 260ish.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
I'm sorry Bro, but I absolutely refuse to put this on Kap based on the games I've been watching. Kap has been a good leader, and to suggest that he hasn't and that's the reason for the woes on offense is totally wrong-headed IMHO. From what I can tell watching the games it seems as if Kap isn't playing comfortable. The way I see it is that Roman and JH aren't coaching to the players strengths - in particular Kaps - but to a philosophy. When you see the same problems consistently emerge game after game after game, even during games where Kap isn't playing bad at all, you have to turn to coaching as the source. It cannot always be poor player execution, and it definitely cannot be lack of leadership. This team might be lacking a lot of things but leadership isn't one of them. When your deffense hands you 5 turnovers and all your offense can muster is 16 points, when your offense consistently has a problem in the red zone, when your offense has the particular habit of abandoning the run even when the RB's are averaging 5 yards a carry, when you have weapons galore on offense not being adequately tapped, when play calls are consistently called that exposes the weaknesses of your O-line, poor execution or QB leadership can only be a scapegoat and piss-poor excuse for not holding the coaches to account.

No Sir, I cannot accept Kaps leadership as the reason we struggled on offense. Coaches coach, and players play. It's very easy to blame the players because they are the ones on the field. Sure there has been times where the players haven't played their best. But that don't explain these struggles on offense - not even remotely. At some point coaching comes into the equation. And for me the coaching looms large on the current 49ers offensive woes.

IMHO

The tape doesn't lie. CK missed a few. Some games have gone on the OL, there's been a game that's gone on drops, and there's been games that have gone on CK missing reads or making terrible decisions based on the situation. There have also been games where Roman has done a WTF.

What we do know is that there is a reason why we have yet to put a complete game together and that's because there has yet to be game where all of these have been in sync at the same time: OL, WR's, Kap, and Roman.

Are we holding Kaep to a higher standard than any other QB? There isn't a game where a QB don't miss a few throws or a few reads, and make a few bad decisions. That's quarterbacking. But the things holding this offense back are systemic.

Item: 5 turnovers = 16 points
Item: consistent red zone issues
Item: the run frequently abandoned
Item: ill-timed, questionable play calling
Item: inability to utilize weapons
Item: exposing the offensive line

I've watched, and re-watched games. Win, lose, or draw all those have been consistent failings of the offense regardless of how poor or well the players played. From what I see it's not even an X's and O's thing, but more of a play selection, play timing, and philosophy that's failing this team right now. I'm sorry but those aren't issues with the players.

There are two reasons why the 49ers face zone coverage over the middle and against their RBs. First, why follow a RB that goes out on a route when the 49ers rarely throw it to them? The second reason is to keep a spy (or spies) on Kap in case he scrambles. ARI, a predominantly man coverage team, still played zone over the middle (with their LBs) for these reasons. Many defenses have come with cover3 as the main coverage call when playing the 49ers. It puts 8 in the box, and it allows spies on Kap. A weakness of cover 3 is that there are only 4 underneath defenders to cover 6 underneath zones. SEA has taken account for this by drafting and developing some the most speedy LBs in the league. Not all teams can claim that. NYG sure cannot.

When the 49ers face this, they are cheating themselves for not attacking the LB level defenders. Checkdown throws to the RB are always available to Kap based on how Gore/Hyde perform their check-release on nearly every single pass play. They are either picking up a blitz, flaring out to the flat, or performing check release where they see that there is no blitz so they leak out to provide Kap with a checkdown. After completing his 5 step drop and going through 1 or 2 reads, by that time the LBs have gained enough depth where a 3 yard throw is there for the taking. Here is an example.

2Q 1st & 10 (first play of 2Q)

49ers: Curl (VD) - Flat(Vance) concept to attack the strongside curl/flat defender (the LB lined up across from VD). Yeah, that's Osgood at the bottom of the screen.
NYG: cover3


Kap takes the snap and completes his 3 step drop back. Since it is a shotgun snap, this is synonymous with a 5 step dropback (shotgun snap = 2 steps in terms of timing). Kap reads the Curl Flat and red lights both.


Iupati gives up pressure and Kap needs to side step the rusher. Notice how much depth on their drops the LB level defenders have taken as Gore presents himself.


Gore just caught the ball.


Simple 2 yard catch with some RAC. +8 yards. Do this a few times and get those LBs to not drop as deep. Then hit them over the middle with intermediate crossers.

Originally posted by thl408:
There are two reasons why the 49ers face zone coverage over the middle and against their RBs. First, why follow a RB that goes out on a route when the 49ers rarely throw it to them? The second reason is to keep a spy (or spies) on Kap in case he scrambles. ARI, a predominantly man coverage team, still played zone over the middle (with their LBs) for these reasons. Many defenses have come with cover3 as the main coverage call when playing the 49ers. It puts 8 in the box, and it allows spies on Kap. A weakness of cover 3 is that there are only 4 underneath defenders to cover 6 underneath zones. SEA has taken account for this by drafting and developing some the most speedy LBs in the league. Not all teams can claim that. NYG sure cannot.

When the 49ers face this, they are cheating themselves for not attacking the LB level defenders. Checkdown throws to the RB are always available to Kap based on how Gore/Hyde perform their check-release on nearly every single pass play. They are either picking up a blitz, flaring out to the flat, or performing check release where they see that there is no blitz so they leak out to provide Kap with a checkdown. After completing his 5 step drop and going through 1 or 2 reads, by that time the LBs have gained enough depth where a 3 yard throw is there for the taking. Here is an example.

2Q 1st & 10 (first play of 2Q)

49ers: Curl (VD) - Flat(Vance) concept to attack the strongside curl/flat defender (the LB lined up across from VD). Yeah, that's Osgood at the bottom of the screen.
NYG: cover3


Kap takes the snap and completes his 3 step drop back. Since it is a shotgun snap, this is synonymous with a 5 step dropback (shotgun snap = 2 steps in terms of timing). Kap reads the Curl Flat and red lights both.


Iupati gives up pressure and Kap needs to side step the rusher. Notice how much depth on their drops the LB level defenders have taken as Gore presents himself.


Gore just caught the ball.


Simple 2 yard catch with some RAC. +8 yards. Do this a few times and get those LBs to not drop as deep. Then hit them over the middle with intermediate crossers.

This is the one! Now you're in 2nd and 2 with an open playbook. And nothing wrong with dialing up Gore, Hyde, Miller, McDonald, etc. as primary targets either esp. against this crappy defense!

Jonnydel and Thl408:


Based upon what you've seen historically on film of A. Smith, Lynch, Willis, Bowman and now a few games of Borland, do you think we could more optimally run a 4-3 defense in 2015 to get Borland on the field as a regular? In my theory, we could put Aldon and Aaron at DE, a rotation of Justin/RayMac/Williams/Dorsey/Dial/Tank at DT, Borland would play the Mike, Willis the Sam, and Bowman the Will. (I'm assuming Wilis and Bowman are fully healthy and I think that's a reasonable assumption.) Then when we go to a true 4-2-5 nickel, we swap Borland for Ward.

I'm more partial to a 3-4 defensive scheme for a few reasons, but the idea of keeping Borland on the sideline next year is disappointing. I do not think the answer is to trade Willis like some might suggest. I think Baalke should pounce and get Willis to a team friendly extension to also get a lower 2015 cap hit. I want to keep and play all three, if possible.

What I see is that we have an incompatible offensive philosophy. We like running plays that will normally net 5 yards or less, and we like intermediate throws that gain 10-20 yards. To move the chains, you want runs + shorter throws (what Alex Smith excelled at). They work together to get that next first down. With a focus on intermediate throws, it sort of makes the runs less effective. If your run doesn't get 5 yards, then you are still looking at 2 longer passes. If it does get 5 yards, then you can try an intermediate throw on 2nd, and a move the chains short throw on 3rd. So let's look at some scenarios:

run on first down nets small gain
Pass on 2nd and third down to get the first down

Pass on first down goes incomplete
Now must pass on 2nd and third down to get the first down.

With this type of an offense, running on first down becomes attractive, because you still have 2 downs if it does not net you 5 yards. Of course, defenses expect you to run. So once you don't get the good yardage on first (and if you do, it is just another first down since you probably got 10 yards), you now feel the pressure to pass again on 2nd, and then 3rd down. But intermediate passes are not high percentage passes. The OL has to block longer (which makes blitzing dangerous as St Louis showed), and it is easier to play pass defense against, compared to defending the shorter passes.

This becomes even worse in the red zone. Completing an intermediate pass in the red zone is even harder, so I think the end result is a stalled drive.

What I think we need to do is focus more on the shorter passes and occasionally sprinkle in the intermediate pass to keep the defense honest. I believe in our first drive in AZ, we played a very different offense that focused on the shorter pass, and it was extremely effective.

P.S. I am not sure if the over reliance on intermediate routes is the fault or Kaepernick or Roman. Considering that Alex Smith made a living on the short throws, I suspect that it is Kaepernick being greedy, not the fault of the routes that Roman is calling.

Originally posted by Geeked:
This whole leader garbage needs to be placed in perspective.

Kaep is 25, there are many players on offense that have been in the league longer and are older than Kaep.

Part of leadership is the team ACCEPTING the leadership. This is not always a rational process. So, before you criticize Keap's "leadership", ask yourself: would you easily follow a guy that has spent less time in you field and is 2 - 5 years younger.

Or, would you look at every potential flaw to reinforce that you don't have to follow him or her.


Just something to contemplate

Chris Borland could be a leader, since He is consistent and accountable when He makes a mistake!

I have a question for those of you who are into the offenses and defenses schemes more than I am.

The offense is given two plays and Kap has the option to keep the initial play or "kill" and go to the 2nd option, am I correct?

Does anyone know his percentage of keeping or killing the right play?

I'm not a Kap basher at all, I think he is an extremely talented QB and will continue to improve but like I said, I don't know schemes and reading defenses to know whether he is making the right call at the line or not.
Thanks

Originally posted by fryet:
What I see is that we have an incompatible offensive philosophy. We like running plays that will normally net 5 yards or less, and we like intermediate throws that gain 10-20 yards. To move the chains, you want runs + shorter throws (what Alex Smith excelled at). They work together to get that next first down. With a focus on intermediate throws, it sort of makes the runs less effective. If your run doesn't get 5 yards, then you are still looking at 2 longer passes. If it does get 5 yards, then you can try an intermediate throw on 2nd, and a move the chains short throw on 3rd. So let's look at some scenarios:

run on first down nets small gain
Pass on 2nd and third down to get the first down

Pass on first down goes incomplete
Now must pass on 2nd and third down to get the first down.

With this type of an offense, running on first down becomes attractive, because you still have 2 downs if it does not net you 5 yards. Of course, defenses expect you to run. So once you don't get the good yardage on first (and if you do, it is just another first down since you probably got 10 yards), you now feel the pressure to pass again on 2nd, and then 3rd down. But intermediate passes are not high percentage passes. The OL has to block longer (which makes blitzing dangerous as St Louis showed), and it is easier to play pass defense against, compared to defending the shorter passes.

This becomes even worse in the red zone. Completing an intermediate pass in the red zone is even harder, so I think the end result is a stalled drive.

What I think we need to do is focus more on the shorter passes and occasionally sprinkle in the intermediate pass to keep the defense honest. I believe in our first drive in AZ, we played a very different offense that focused on the shorter pass, and it was extremely effective.

P.S. I am not sure if the over reliance on intermediate routes is the fault or Kaepernick or Roman. Considering that Alex Smith made a living on the short throws, I suspect that it is Kaepernick being greedy, not the fault of the routes that Roman is calling.

That's a long-winded way of expressing your point but naturally, I agree! As to the bold, it's hard to say. It could be b/c we're always in 2nd and 3rd and longs or it could be b/c that's what's entrenched in the philosophy...someone likened it to playing the slot machine (lose some money with the chance of making up for it with a bigger payoff). Some could be b/c HaRoman see that as CK's passing strength (intermediate-deeper passing game) or this is the area they see most teams struggle to defend (long sideline routes/comebacks/back shoulder throws). But given the types of routes we run (vanilla), depth (all the same depth or deep, deeper and deepest, etc.), that's probably just the game plan every week.

PS: I'm just going to keep posting this over and over until fans understand the ramifications of this offensive approach:; how critical sequence of play calling is; how one play sets up the other, etc.

Overall:
So overall for the season, on 2nd downs, 63% of the time (124 of 196) we had >7 yards to go averaging 10.3 yards to go. In short, 2/3rds of the time we're going BACKWARDS on 1st downs and putting ouselves in 2nd and longs, which as you know, often times snowballs from there. Fix 1st downs and you fix 2nd and 3rd. Fix 1st downs and you'll most likely have success in the RZ as well (similar calls). Fix RZ problems and we're a Superbowl champion!

Originally posted by Sourball:
I have a question for those of you who are into the offenses and defenses schemes more than I am.

The offense is given two plays and Kap has the option to keep the initial play or "kill" and go to the 2nd option, am I correct?

Does anyone know his percentage of keeping or killing the right play?

I'm not a Kap basher at all, I think he is an extremely talented QB and will continue to improve but like I said, I don't know schemes and reading defenses to know whether he is making the right call at the line or not.
Thanks

Hard to say...lots of big time assumptions on this topic.

"Kill, kill, kill" or "Red 80, red 80." Does this cadence mean anything? If so, does he switch it up throughout the game? Who even knows if he's given two plays each snap for sure...and if so, what is the sequence 1) Run and/or 2) Pass or 3) Combination, variable, etc. Hand signals? How much control does CK "really" have to change plays in the huddle or pre-snap or does he typically play the good soldier and just tries to execute the play call no matter what, leaving us saying, "WTF...why go to a doubled Crabtree on a fade in the corner of the EZ when he's got three wide open players right in his sightline?"

We just don't know. Period. We can speculate...guestimate. The only thing we DO know is that the offense was fully installed this past off season. So what you see is what you get.

Originally posted by NCommand:
That's a long-winded way of expressing your point but naturally, I agree! As to the bold, it's hard to say. It could be b/c we're always in 2nd and 3rd and longs or it could be b/c that's what's entrenched in the philosophy...someone likened it to playing the slot machine (lose some money with the chance of making up for it with a bigger payoff). Some could be b/c HaRoman see that as CK's passing strength (intermediate-deeper passing game) or this is the area they see most teams struggle to defend (long sideline routes/comebacks/back shoulder throws). But given the types of routes we run (vanilla), depth (all the same depth or deep, deeper and deepest, etc.), that's probably just the game plan every week.

PS: I'm just going to keep posting this over and over until fans understand the ramifications of this offensive approach:; how critical sequence of play calling is; how one play sets up the other, etc.

Overall:
So overall for the season, on 2nd downs, 63% of the time (124 of 196) we had >7 yards to go averaging 10.3 yards to go. In short, 2/3rds of the time we're going BACKWARDS on 1st downs and putting ouselves in 2nd and longs, which as you know, often times snowballs from there. Fix 1st downs and you fix 2nd and 3rd. Fix 1st downs and you'll most likely have success in the RZ as well (similar calls). Fix RZ problems and we're a Superbowl champion!

Yes, but the reason why it is second and long is because his first down pass was either completed for 10+ yards or incomplete. If he chose to throw a 5 yard pass then he wouldn't be in second and long. Then 2nd and 5 becomes a potential running down, instead of 2nd and 10 which suggests pass.

Personally, on 2nd and 10, I think the 49ers should run before. They wouldn't be facing 8 in the box so have a good chance of getting 5 or more yards and then having a manageable 3rd down.

Originally posted by Adusoron:
Jonnydel and Thl408:


Based upon what you've seen historically on film of A. Smith, Lynch, Willis, Bowman and now a few games of Borland, do you think we could more optimally run a 4-3 defense in 2015 to get Borland on the field as a regular? In my theory, we could put Aldon and Aaron at DE, a rotation of Justin/RayMac/Williams/Dorsey/Dial/Tank at DT, Borland would play the Mike, Willis the Sam, and Bowman the Will. (I'm assuming Wilis and Bowman are fully healthy and I think that's a reasonable assumption.) Then when we go to a true 4-2-5 nickel, we swap Borland for Ward.

I'm more partial to a 3-4 defensive scheme for a few reasons, but the idea of keeping Borland on the sideline next year is disappointing. I do not think the answer is to trade Willis like some might suggest. I think Baalke should pounce and get Willis to a team friendly extension to also get a lower 2015 cap hit. I want to keep and play all three, if possible.

Fangio has always run a 3-4 so to get him to step out of his comfort zone, to get Borland on the field, would speak volumes about what he thinks of Borland. I don't think it will happen so long as Fangio is calling the shots.

Setting aside coaching preferences for a bit, because I think it's wrong to ask a coach to teach something he doesn't fully believe in, I think a 4-3 with the arrangement you mentioned would work. However, defenses usually change systems when things aren't working out and change is needed. This isn't the case with the 49ers and I think it would be a mistake to change a scheme, that has been proven to work for this roster, just to get a player on the field.

So what you listed sounds great on paper. I'm not sure anyone can dispute that. But overhauling a scheme that is proven, just to get a player on the field seems risky. I would just put Borland on the bench and call it a good problem to have. His time will come soon enough and it won't be a bad thing to save his body from some wear and tear as we watch Willis close his career in a 49er uni. I am also considering the breakout year for Ian and the extension of Dorsey as they man the 3-4 NT position. I really like those guys as a 1-2 punch at NT.