NY Giants coaches film analysis

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by jonnydel:
I put the blame on him on that play because, he had a play to be made. VD's route gets a first down(both I and Thl belive that). Now, if you don't believe that his route gets a first down(you're free to have your opinion) then, yes, I can see how it's hard to put that at Kap's feet. But, if, like me, you think VD's route was the place to throw the ball, then it's at his feet throughout the whole sequence of the play.

I'm not saying he sucks because of it. But, it's an area that has to improve for our offense to improve and get through the next barrier. If he gets through this barrier, I truly think our offense will explode.

Given what happened yes it does look like VD's route gets a first down. However your issue was that Kap wasted time looking to the other side when he should've ran the defense known he wouldn't have anything of worth to that side and look Vernon's way post snap.

The problem I have with that line of thinking is if Kap drops back and looks to Vernon's side right away Vernon has his back to Colin. If he looks there right away then the defense also reacts differently and Vernon will not be as open as he was with the original play.

One other thing that I will add, and you touched on it a bit in your analysis, but didn't put an emphasis on it.
Colin's eyes. He is staring down his recievers. Colin needs to throw no-look passes or keep his head pointed away from where he is going to throw. That takes a lot of confidence and total command of this offense and great understanding of the defensive coverage reactions to the particular formation, down, and distance. He's occasionally doing so. He has great confidence in Anquan and Crabs, and to a certain extent Stevie, but I think he's lost a bit of confidence in VD and Vance.

Miller has been used more in the passing game as a result, I think, of the lack of TE production from that position. I don't know if VD will begin to get productive again, it looks like he's lost some spirit or confidence after his numerous injuries. Vance isn't being utilized at all, in my opinion. I don't know why. Possibly Colin hasn't developed the chemistry with him that he has with Crabs, Anquan and to a lesser extend, Stevie. I'm hoping the TE position will become more of a factor in the upcomming games.

Originally posted by Giedi:
Good questions jonnydel, and I also would add that the underperformance of the O Line had a lot to do with replacing two centers. Kilgore and Goodwin. Boone's holdout really hurt his consistency and production in the beginning of the year.

Come on now...OL issues and a Boone holdout to explain that LONG of a trend?

As to jonny's question, I'm fairly certain Turner and McCarthy wouldn't call "C.Hyde or F.Gore up the middle to SF 25 for 1 yard" as often on 1st downs? Just a hunch? Perhaps.

Either way, no matter what way you want to spin it, it's a real problem spelled out for you in black and white right here. And given it still exists, it's clearly one the coaches have NOT addressed to the point of correction. I believe it certainly ties into their Anti-WCO philosophy.

Now, let me know from your perspective, what you guys would call with such an obvious trend to date; what calls would you start to make on 1st downs to keep us from going backwards so much? What would you do to make life easier on your young "pocket" QB...on your OL...to play to the strengths of your personnel...to play chess...to set us up better to open the playbook on 2nd and 3rd downs?

B/c THAT is where an OC makes his money IMHO. And this is the money thread.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by jonnydel:
For all of that - what would you do in Roman's shoes to increase our production on 1st down???? How would you exploit something in the defense - give concrete examples. How would Norv Turner do it differently? How would Mike McCarthy do it differently?

More running out of passing formations for one. Not telegraphing runs or playaction pass by formation. Total agree with thl that not running more in spread sets is a big issue.

I actually really liked Roman shifting formations on a few runs at the last minute. Don't need to do all the crazy shifting but doing late formation switching can be effective in moderation.

In terms of first down passing use it instead of 2nd down as the shot down. First play after the Borland pick should've been the TD shot not a short run then a TD shot on 2nd. Use more spread looks that get 1 on 1s. Take advantage of Vance in the short areas of zones instead of him exclusively blocking. He has the body type to shield lbs or safeties in those short areas.

Using screens effectively by practicing them and then hitting teams blitzing on early downs trying to get us in a negative play. Some RB flares as well that get backs involved in pass game.

Probably more but that's off top of my head.

I agree with a lot of what you say. I am curious: is it still the widely held belief that Kap has two plays when he heads to the line of scrimmage? One run and one pass? As far as playcalling, might it be as safe to assume that Kap is making bad changes at the line as it is to assume that Roman is constantly calling bad plays?

Note: this does not call into question the quality of the plays as designed. It is purely a question regarding WHEN certain types of plays are called. Poor design is obviously Roman.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:
Good questions jonnydel, and I also would add that the underperformance of the O Line had a lot to do with replacing two centers. Kilgore and Goodwin. Boone's holdout really hurt his consistency and production in the beginning of the year.

Come on now...OL issues and a Boone holdout to explain that LONG of a trend?

As to jonny's question, I'm fairly certain Turner and McCarthy wouldn't call "C.Hyde or F.Gore up the middle to SF 25 for 1 yard" as often on 1st downs? Just a hunch? Perhaps.

Either way, no matter what way you want to spin it, it's a real problem spelled out for you in black and white right here. And given it still exists, it's clearly one the coaches have NOT addressed to the point of correction. I believe it certainly ties into their Anti-WCO philosophy.

Now, let me know from your perspective, what you guys would call with such an obvious trend to date; what calls would you start to make on 1st downs to keep us from going backwards so much? What would you do to make life easier on your young "pocket" QB...on your OL...to play to the strengths of your personnel...to play chess...to set us up better to open the playbook on 2nd and 3rd downs?

B/c THAT is where an OC makes his money IMHO. And this is the money thread.

Why not? It's just as valid as saying the coaching scheme sucks.

And as for statistics, our run game is our strength. So why not lead with the run on first down? Again, what you are trying to get at is predictiablity, and while I think that's a factor in not getting first downs, again I say it's more execution on the *pass* plays that enable teams to load up on the run in first downs.

If our passing was more consistent and actually threatened a defense, then they wouldn't load up on the run on first downs. As it is, the passing offense is inconsistent and execution is lacking in many areas (as I've explained in a previous post on this thread). Fix that, and you fix first down problems.

Originally posted by WINiner:

Originally posted by NYniner85:
I don't think the issue is Kap's leadership at all...poor game planing and making adjustment have been the reason for a couple losses in my opinion. Roger's has never been known as a leader either.

Kap threw some very inaccurate balls on Sunday and play calling in the red zone (again) has been the issue....I am glad they have realized that the line is built for running the ball and when gore gets 20 touches they usually win.

Rogers is the epitome of leader. What have the WR's who have gone elsewhere ever done? Jack squat is what. I live 30 minutes south of Lambeau and trust me when I say that post couldn't be more wrong.

What?? He has been questioned numerous times for his lack of leadership by former players and analyst have even stated Aaron tends to blame others not his self....it's one thing to be a great player like Rogers, but it's another thing to be a great leader like Brady, Brees, Manning, Willis,Montana,Elway etc...

One of the reasons he dropped in the draft is because he was perceived as a "know-it-all" to scouts and GMs. That rubs people/players the wrong way. I mean if you don't believe me look it up, you will see tons of articles speculating his lack of leadership.

I will just add his leadership or lack there of has nothing to do with how well a WR has done elsewhere.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:
Good questions jonnydel, and I also would add that the underperformance of the O Line had a lot to do with replacing two centers. Kilgore and Goodwin. Boone's holdout really hurt his consistency and production in the beginning of the year.

Come on now...OL issues and a Boone holdout to explain that LONG of a trend?

As to jonny's question, I'm fairly certain Turner and McCarthy wouldn't call "C.Hyde or F.Gore up the middle to SF 25 for 1 yard" as often on 1st downs? Just a hunch? Perhaps.

Either way, no matter what way you want to spin it, it's a real problem spelled out for you in black and white right here. And given it still exists, it's clearly one the coaches have NOT addressed to the point of correction. I believe it certainly ties into their Anti-WCO philosophy.

Now, let me know from your perspective, what you guys would call with such an obvious trend to date; what calls would you start to make on 1st downs to keep us from going backwards so much? What would you do to make life easier on your young "pocket" QB...on your OL...to play to the strengths of your personnel...to play chess...to set us up better to open the playbook on 2nd and 3rd downs?

B/c THAT is where an OC makes his money IMHO. And this is the money thread.

Why not? It's just as valid as saying the coaching scheme sucks.

And as for statistics, our run game is our strength. So why not lead with the run on first down? Again, what you are trying to get at is predictiablity, and while I think that's a factor in not getting first downs, again I say it's more execution on the *pass* plays that enable teams to load up on the run in first downs.

If our passing was more consistent and actually threatened a defense, then they wouldn't load up on the run on first downs. As it is, the passing offense is inconsistent and execution is lacking in many areas (as I've explained in a previous post on this thread). Fix that, and you fix first down problems.

Yes they WILL load up if you continue to show the same trends. That's how a DC builds a game plan. They review trends and attack those. And this is the easiest to see. It's right here in front of you and you are quick to assess blame on CK on the back end of a 3rd and 8 and chalk this trend up to the OL and a holdout and change at C without even doing an ounce of research yourself to make that claim. That, in a nutshell, is a bias. That is not seeing the forrest through the trees. And that is not what an objective thread or post is supposed to be about.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:
Good questions jonnydel, and I also would add that the underperformance of the O Line had a lot to do with replacing two centers. Kilgore and Goodwin. Boone's holdout really hurt his consistency and production in the beginning of the year.

Come on now...OL issues and a Boone holdout to explain that LONG of a trend?

As to jonny's question, I'm fairly certain Turner and McCarthy wouldn't call "C.Hyde or F.Gore up the middle to SF 25 for 1 yard" as often on 1st downs? Just a hunch? Perhaps.

Either way, no matter what way you want to spin it, it's a real problem spelled out for you in black and white right here. And given it still exists, it's clearly one the coaches have NOT addressed to the point of correction. I believe it certainly ties into their Anti-WCO philosophy.

Now, let me know from your perspective, what you guys would call with such an obvious trend to date; what calls would you start to make on 1st downs to keep us from going backwards so much? What would you do to make life easier on your young "pocket" QB...on your OL...to play to the strengths of your personnel...to play chess...to set us up better to open the playbook on 2nd and 3rd downs?

B/c THAT is where an OC makes his money IMHO. And this is the money thread.

But, that's still not getting to what I'm asking. I'm asking for specifics. It's not as simple as, "frank Gore up the middle to the Giants 25". We'll run 94 power(or 24 power, whichever way you call it out) 93 counter, 96 trap, 93 iso - those are all different run plays, it's not like he's calling the same stinking play every time.

Our first down passing this year has been particular bad as well. So, how would you attack a cover 3 defense on first down differently? How would you counter the D-line slants from the 4-3 under differently? Those are my questions?

How do you give CK better pass pro on 1st down?? Simply saying, "Norv wouldn't call that play" doesn't give us any answers.

I need no analysis to see that our offense is just plain turrable... just turrable. I blame every single person involved from Harbaugh all the way down to the guy washing the jockstraps. If we fail to make the playoffs, changes should immediately ensue.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:
Good questions jonnydel, and I also would add that the underperformance of the O Line had a lot to do with replacing two centers. Kilgore and Goodwin. Boone's holdout really hurt his consistency and production in the beginning of the year.

Come on now...OL issues and a Boone holdout to explain that LONG of a trend?

As to jonny's question, I'm fairly certain Turner and McCarthy wouldn't call "C.Hyde or F.Gore up the middle to SF 25 for 1 yard" as often on 1st downs? Just a hunch? Perhaps.

Either way, no matter what way you want to spin it, it's a real problem spelled out for you in black and white right here. And given it still exists, it's clearly one the coaches have NOT addressed to the point of correction. I believe it certainly ties into their Anti-WCO philosophy.

Now, let me know from your perspective, what you guys would call with such an obvious trend to date; what calls would you start to make on 1st downs to keep us from going backwards so much? What would you do to make life easier on your young "pocket" QB...on your OL...to play to the strengths of your personnel...to play chess...to set us up better to open the playbook on 2nd and 3rd downs?

B/c THAT is where an OC makes his money IMHO. And this is the money thread.

Why not? It's just as valid as saying the coaching scheme sucks.

And as for statistics, our run game is our strength. So why not lead with the run on first down? Again, what you are trying to get at is predictiablity, and while I think that's a factor in not getting first downs, again I say it's more execution on the *pass* plays that enable teams to load up on the run in first downs.

If our passing was more consistent and actually threatened a defense, then they wouldn't load up on the run on first downs. As it is, the passing offense is inconsistent and execution is lacking in many areas (as I've explained in a previous post on this thread). Fix that, and you fix first down problems.

Yes they WILL load up if you continue to show the same trends. That's how a DC builds a game plan. They review trends and attack those. And this is the easiest to see. It's right here in front of you and you are quick to assess blame on CK on the back end of a 3rd and 8 and chalk this trend up to the OL and a holdout and change at C without even doing an ounce of research yourself to make that claim. That, in a nutshell, is a bias. That is not seeing the forrest through the trees. And that is not what an objective thread or post is supposed to be about.

Well the *trend* is a sucky passing offense. Any DC worth his salt will 8 man in a box the run, and dare this offense to pass. Our run game is actually doing very well, thank you.

As for Jonnydel's question, I think the play in which crabs scored a TD is going to be exploited by this offense. The tendency of a defense is indeed to load up on the run and zone if it's not a run, so I think the offense needs to run those kinds of plays more. It's very much like the Martz offense with the square in's and square outs, because most teams zone the Martz offense - due to it's complexity. I think instead of vertical stretch plays, more sudden quick change routes like a square in, post, or square out will suit this WR corps better.

That, of course, means Colin has to be able to read the zone coverages much better and continue to develop the ability to throw blind. The nice thing about that play (the crabs TD) is I think there are options for Colin if it's man. I.e, if it's man, instead of a zone, Crabs (or anquan on the other side) runs a much sharper route to shake the man defender, maybe a hook, or a slant, or a hitch.

Originally posted by jonesadrian:
If it's hard to pinpoint then don't pinpoint the blame lol. I think it's a collective effort from what I've seen. combination of missed blocks, bad reads, drops...and especially drive extending drops where everything was done right but the catch.. and play calling.
it's everyone.

Personally, I want to hear what JohnnyDel and Thl have to say about the root cause. Does that mean that they are necessarily correct? Certainly not, but my personal opinion is molded as I hear what the experts on this board have to say. I certainly don't want to hamstring them into only giving us the facts. I want to know what they think as well.

Both these plays we had Crabs running the skinny post. One complete the other not - they've already been touched on. But, in that, the free safety is now looking to jump these skinny posts.

Here's a pass to Crabs on 1st down.....


NY shows the single safety look. This time, instead of a skinny post from Crabs, we run deeper slant pattern.


You see NY dropping into their zones and how it leaves a gap between the zones.

The free safety watches Kap's eyes and jumps, what he thinks is coming, a skinny post. But, we've got the slant in play here. I illustrated the depth of the different routes so you could see how the safety is trying to jump the skinny post.


Because the safety moved himself out of position to play the wrong route, he's now inside Crabtree and in a bad angle. This has opened up a nice hole in the zones.


You see how the safety was out of position and now has to try and recover.


Crabs then outruns them to the endzone for the TD!!!!

I thought that was a good halftime adjustment to set up the big play.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:
Good questions jonnydel, and I also would add that the underperformance of the O Line had a lot to do with replacing two centers. Kilgore and Goodwin. Boone's holdout really hurt his consistency and production in the beginning of the year.

Come on now...OL issues and a Boone holdout to explain that LONG of a trend?

As to jonny's question, I'm fairly certain Turner and McCarthy wouldn't call "C.Hyde or F.Gore up the middle to SF 25 for 1 yard" as often on 1st downs? Just a hunch? Perhaps.

Either way, no matter what way you want to spin it, it's a real problem spelled out for you in black and white right here. And given it still exists, it's clearly one the coaches have NOT addressed to the point of correction. I believe it certainly ties into their Anti-WCO philosophy.

Now, let me know from your perspective, what you guys would call with such an obvious trend to date; what calls would you start to make on 1st downs to keep us from going backwards so much? What would you do to make life easier on your young "pocket" QB...on your OL...to play to the strengths of your personnel...to play chess...to set us up better to open the playbook on 2nd and 3rd downs?

B/c THAT is where an OC makes his money IMHO. And this is the money thread.

But, that's still not getting to what I'm asking. I'm asking for specifics. It's not as simple as, "frank Gore up the middle to the Giants 25". We'll run 94 power(or 24 power, whichever way you call it out) 93 counter, 96 trap, 93 iso - those are all different run plays, it's not like he's calling the same stinking play every time.

Our first down passing this year has been particular bad as well. So, how would you attack a cover 3 defense on first down differently? How would you counter the D-line slants from the 4-3 under differently? Those are my questions?

How do you give CK better pass pro on 1st down?? Simply saying, "Norv wouldn't call that play" doesn't give us any answers.

Who cares if it's a 94 power, 93 counter, 96 trap or 93 ISO...it's a RUN UP THE MIDDLE against an 8-10 man box. I posted the facts. If you want to act surprised when we struggle to sustain drives via 2nd and 3rd downs up against the 8-ball, that's fine. All we're saying is that we're only playing with 2 downs here and that's hard to do, even with all the talent we have, including CK who is able to avoid so many pressures and sacks and make something out of nothing (ala 8 of his 12 TD's via broken plays).

As to what "I" would do? I'm not an OC nor would I ever claim to be. I saw a negative trend that was deeper than a best-case-secenario anticipation pass by CK into a tight window on 3rd and 8 and asked, "Why are we even IN 3rd and 8? Let's look at that b/c that's going to tell the bigger picture."

So there it is...and I agree, passing isn't exactly great either WHEN we pass on 1st downs so let's take a look at them in this film review thread. Isn't that more meaningful? Let's take a look at every single 1st down call and see what we could have done to set ourselves up better. I stated earlier, we'll probably see a large number of reasons for going backwards on 1st downs.

BUT no matter what way you slice it, this long of a trend, that comes down to coaching. Period.

Originally posted by Giedi:
Well the *trend* is a sucky passing offense. Any DC worth his salt will 8 man in a box the run, and dare this offense to pass. Our run game is actually doing very well, thank you.

As for Jonnydel's question, I think the play in which crabs scored a TD is going to be exploited by this offense. The tendency of a defense is indeed to load up on the run and zone if it's not a run, so I think the offense needs to run those kinds of plays more. It's very much like the Martz offense with the square in's and square outs, because most teams zone the Martz offense - due to it's complexity. I think instead of vertical stretch plays, more sudden quick change routes like a square in, post, or square out will suit this WR corps better.

That, of course, means Colin has to be able to read the zone coverages much better and continue to develop the ability to throw blind. The nice thing about that play (the crabs TD) is I think there are options for Colin if it's man. I.e, if it's man, instead of a zone, Crabs (or anquan on the other side) runs a much sharper route to shake the man defender, maybe a hook, or a slant, or a hitch.

How about this between two fans. How about we watch the first down play calling for the next game. Let's break it down...what we liked, what we didn't, etc.? Were the coaches doing something different to address this issue but we clearly were failing on execution? Or was the play calling running into a brick wall and hamstringing the players? Drops, poor run blocking, blitz pick up, etc. I did the research, showed you a HUGE area of weakness for 10 games now, so let's try to get down to the source.

I'm sorry Bro, but I absolutely refuse to put this on Kap based on the games I've been watching. Kap has been a good leader, and to suggest that he hasn't and that's the reason for the woes on offense is totally wrong-headed IMHO. From what I can tell watching the games it seems as if Kap isn't playing comfortable. The way I see it is that Roman and JH aren't coaching to the players strengths - in particular Kaps - but to a philosophy. When you see the same problems consistently emerge game after game after game, even during games where Kap isn't playing bad at all, you have to turn to coaching as the source. It cannot always be poor player execution, and it definitely cannot be lack of leadership. This team might be lacking a lot of things but leadership isn't one of them. When your deffense hands you 5 turnovers and all your offense can muster is 16 points, when your offense consistently has a problem in the red zone, when your offense has the particular habit of abandoning the run even when the RB's are averaging 5 yards a carry, when you have weapons galore on offense not being adequately tapped, when play calls are consistently called that exposes the weaknesses of your O-line, poor execution or QB leadership can only be a scapegoat and piss-poor excuse for not holding the coaches to account.

No Sir, I cannot accept Kaps leadership as the reason we struggled on offense. Coaches coach, and players play. It's very easy to blame the players because they are the ones on the field. Sure there has been times where the players haven't played their best. But that don't explain these struggles on offense - not even remotely. At some point coaching comes into the equation. And for me the coaching looms large on the current 49ers offensive woes.

IMHO

Originally posted by VinculumJuris:
Defenses are being forced to pick their poison. To shut down Wilson in the passing game, they are leaving gaping running lanes for Lynch. Wilson is also getting it done on the ground, which shows that the defense is not able to play the run effectively. If the defense committed to shutting down the run, it seems likely that Wilson's production through the air would improve.

This is not connected to the discussion of Wilson being a good leader last season.

lol you seriously think defenses are looking to stop Wilson and the Seahawks passing game before concentrating on Lynch?

Check how successful Seattle is running out of the spread. You're telling me Frank Gore and Hyde can't get it done? I believe the numbers are actually better when we run out of the spread. We just don't do it enough...why? Great question.

Running out of the spread helps the whole offense. It makes it easier to attack the defense with multiple receivers out there via pass and it also prevents the defense from stacking the box to stop the run(if they do that vs a spread look then they're just begging to be gashed via the pass)