NY Giants coaches film analysis

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by sanjo49er:
Jonny i saw nothing wrong with this play...please explain

He wanted kaep to hold it a little longer and throw it to stone hands, great decision by kaep, saw pressure..got rid of it

No he's saying that pre snap read should have been to not even look to the left cause it was defeated but look to the right because based on the call it would be open. to this i say that is absolutely correct and he is allowed to make a misread every now and then. what i also took from that play is he got through his reads to the left, saw the pressure and checked it down...another thing people claim he doesn't do. just a little more time and he see's vd open and tosses it to him. and he wasn't back there all day looking either.

it's a double edged sword because to me no qb is going to make the right read every time we just need him to make the right read and throw more than the opposite of that. it takes a lot for a play to be successful and it only takes 1 person not executing to make a play a failure. it always comes down to the team imo
kap is not perfect but he has improved a lot from the tape ive seen he has room to grow but so does everyone in the offense and i think that growth is dependent on consistency in play calling and developing an offense with a rhythm.

3rd Down Failure #4

1st Down: Gore for -1
2nd Down: Incomplete deep to Lloyd

49ers: No idea what Crabs and Boldin are trying to do and why they are so close to one another running down the field. Then stopping near one another.
NYG: cover4


Kap hits the top of his dropback and looks to his left. If he is going to throw Crab's Deep Out, it needs to be now, before Crabs starts his break as this is a far throw. But with the CB watching Kap, it's a risky throw. Boldin's route is not helping since it brings another defender into the area.


Kap starts his windup to target Crabs and the CB on Crabs sees it the whole way. The CB drives on the throw.


Lucky this pass was not INTed as the CB got his fingers on the ball. Would not have been a first down anyway.


I will continue the rest of this series tomorrow. Enough 'fail' for one night, especially in a 49er victory.

Originally posted by thl408:
3rd Down Failure #4

1st Down: Gore for -1
2nd Down: Incomplete deep to Lloyd

49ers: No idea what Crabs and Boldin are trying to do and why they are so close to one another running down the field. Then stopping near one another.
NYG: cover4


Kap hits the top of his dropback and looks to his left. If he is going to throw Crab's Deep Out, it needs to be now, before Crabs starts his break as this is a far throw. But with the CB watching Kap, it's a risky throw. Boldin's route is not helping since it brings another defender into the area.


Kap starts his windup to target Crabs and the CB on Crabs sees it the whole way. The CB drives on the throw.


Lucky this pass was not INTed as the CB got his fingers on the ball. Would not have been a first down anyway.


I will continue the rest of this series tomorrow. Enough 'fail' for one night, especially in a 49er victory.

"Take what the Defense gives u"

This is the first Borland INT.

2Q 1st & 10

NYG: To Eli's right side: Curl (red)-Flat (blue) with a Snag route over the middle. To the left side: Slant-Flat
49ers: Some exotic hybrid mixed coverage out of a cover 1 look. I want to say it's some form of cover3, but Cully doesn't act like a cover3 CB.



Eli takes the snap and first looks to his left. He doesn't like what he sees and red lights both routes as Cully presses the Slant and Bethea converges quickly on the Flat.


To the right, with the Flat route influencing DJohnson to go to the flat, a throwing lane to the Curl is open with Cox playing off coverage.


Instead, Eli targets the snag route over the middle. Eli telegraphs the throw a bit as Borland recognizes the route and jumps the throw.




Notice how Borland moves laterally so that the WR doesn't get a chance to use his body to shield Borland from the throw. By moving laterally three little sidesteps, it gives him a great angle to cut under the throw.

Our routes suck.

Originally posted by sanjo49er:

Originally posted by thl408:
3rd Down Failure #2

1st Down: Gore for -1
2nd Down: Incomplete pass

49ers: Not sure what's going on to Kap's left. Looks rather vanilla. To Kap's right is a clear out by SJ for VD's out route. The whole play looks rather basic, but it got someone open.
NYG: cover 4


Kap drops back and looks to his left. With the CB over Lloyd playing with a large cushion, there's nothing to be had there. Boldin's Curls gets defeated as well. The two DL across from Boone and ADavis just stunted.


Kap looks to his right for a split second before the stunting DT loops around ADavis and has a clear path to Kap.


Kap sees the rusher coming at him and checks down to Hyde over the middle. VD was open along the sidelines, but the pressure didn't allow Kap to see him.







jonnydel alluded to this play earlier in this thread: "To me, when I see a QB miss a read against cover 4 when the defense showed, pre-snap, a 4 shell look and stayed in that look post snap and the QB never looks to the side of the play to beat a cover 4 and has an open TE - it's not a system issue." Read more at http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/niners/180298-giants-coaches-film-analysis/page5/#6DmL6gWlfU5hVYdk.99

Jonny i saw nothing wrong with this play...please explain

Not sure I understand this, I think a change of play call would have been better. The only route I see coming free is Vernon on the right hand side but that's as the rusher loops in unblocked. I think the right option would have been a change at the LOS.

Having said that, our routes look really poor in general in terms of design, very, very basic .

Originally posted by Giedi:
I saw some very good first down gains by Gore in the Giants game and the New Orleans game. I think our run game is one of the best. The statistics bear that out. Where this offense is having problems is in the passing game, again the stats bear that out. If you compare the NY Giants to the 49er offense, and also look at the game, the Giants were much more consistent and smoother on their offense than ours. I think if you zero in on the TE position, you will see the NY TE's outproduced our TE by a 3 to 1 margin. Just looking at Donnell season (the NY Giants TE) vs VD, and you see him having 40+ catches to VD's 18.

I think aside from the sub par pass protection and constant failure of blitz pickups in the red zone, the TE position and Vernon in particular is really costing this offense. Several times Vernon and Vance were targeted and the failures and misfires left the offense in 3rd down long yardage situations. Not a good thing if you want to keep a drive alive.

Hopefully with the offense playing at home, the offense can actually call audibles and more motions in the game. That may help the red zone blitz pick ups and possible hot route adjustments on weird all or nothing defensive calls by opposing teams. If there is one area of the offense I can point to - that is causing all the offensive breakdowns, it's the lack of the TE production, sub par pass protection by the O Line, and of course Colin's tendency to throw deep instead of getting the sure checkdown pass for positive yardage. You might as well throw in there some of G-ro's badly designed pass plays, but I don't think its as big a factor as failure to execute by the offensive players.

That's a very narrow, hopeful analysis. I guess the problems last year were that Crabs was hurt? You can't lay this all on one position, although I agree that vern was home run target last year and not this year. Maybe call less home runs?

Our offensive staff needs to transition to more neutral formations that are less reliant on oveloading the point of attack, run a more balanced pass distribution that includes tight ends and running backs (who are NEVER targeted), and call plays that are situationally appropriate. For example, a 25 yard out isn't a shrewd play to run on 2nd and 11. Think about a 5 yard swing to Frank, setting up a 3rd and manageable. Unless we start to think like that, we will stay one of the ugliest, least productive offenses in the league. And we won't need 5 second pass pro or vern catching a dozen verticals to be competitive.

Originally posted by NCommand:
That's the sole purpose of this thread and what I'm asking them to do; objective casual analysis. To review why we are, essentially, going BACKWARDS on first downs the mass majority of the time (mostly runs stuffed for lost yardage). 30th in the NFL. And this is a perpetual problem I've noted since Harbaugh first arrived under Alex's tenure as well. This is a 4-year issue now and one that is constantly ignored yet, to me, is the biggest factor why the OL can't pass protect, why CK is running for his life, is why we are forced to make something out of nothing (will ourselves to win) on individual ad lib plays, etc. When you're only playing with 2 downs, defenses are in a much better situation to dictate you and pin their ears back and they know they have an extra second to do it b/c you've got 7-20 yards to go! We've still managed to overcome some of this and are 20th in the NFL in total first downs but you can see how one leads to another; series of events.

It's like in golf when you shank a tee-shot. Now you're off in the rough. It doesn't mean you're totally screwed but the probability of making up for it on your next two shots, are dramatically reduced, to get par and even less, birdie.

I remember that we were good on 1st down with Alex at QB, so I checked the same site to view the stat for the last four years:

YEAR - RANK - Yards per play (run/pass/overall)
2014 - 30th - 4.89 5.33 5.08
2013 - 4th - 6.46 6.81 6.60
2012 - 2nd - 6.57 7.97 7.22
2011 - 9th - 6.50 7.11 6.76

Until this year we were one of the best team in the NFL in yards per play on first down.

This year there is something wrong.
The OL is playing badly, but this is partially understandable, given the change at C, Boone holding out and ADavis missing the offseason.
Gore is aging and he is becoming too slow to run outside, so the defenses can collapse the middle of the field; this plus the problems at OL could explain the poor run yards per play on first down this year.
The production has dropped equally on pass plays. To me, we are just executing plays like .... and everyone on the offensive side of the field seems to play for himself. There is too much ranting, shouting and pointing fingers, something that we were not used to see. I agree that leadership is severely missing on offense.

Originally posted by sanjo49er:

Originally posted by thl408:
3rd Down Failure #4

1st Down: Gore for -1
2nd Down: Incomplete deep to Lloyd

49ers: No idea what Crabs and Boldin are trying to do and why they are so close to one another running down the field. Then stopping near one another.
NYG: cover4


Kap hits the top of his dropback and looks to his left. If he is going to throw Crab's Deep Out, it needs to be now, before Crabs starts his break as this is a far throw. But with the CB watching Kap, it's a risky throw. Boldin's route is not helping since it brings another defender into the area.


Kap starts his windup to target Crabs and the CB on Crabs sees it the whole way. The CB drives on the throw.


Lucky this pass was not INTed as the CB got his fingers on the ball. Would not have been a first down anyway.


I will continue the rest of this series tomorrow. Enough 'fail' for one night, especially in a 49er victory.

"Take what the Defense gives u"

You mean take the first down to Lloyd? That would have been the right throw to make. Perfect pass protection, but he didn't give the play long enough to develop or even really look at the right side of the field. That's on Kap...

Originally posted by Giedi:
I saw some very good first down gains by Gore in the Giants game and the New Orleans game. I think our run game is one of the best. The statistics bear that out. Where this offense is having problems is in the passing game, again the stats bear that out. If you compare the NY Giants to the 49er offense, and also look at the game, the Giants were much more consistent and smoother on their offense than ours. I think if you zero in on the TE position, you will see the NY TE's outproduced our TE by a 3 to 1 margin. Just looking at Donnell season (the NY Giants TE) vs VD, and you see him having 40+ catches to VD's 18.

I think aside from the sub par pass protection and constant failure of blitz pickups in the red zone, the TE position and Vernon in particular is really costing this offense. Several times Vernon and Vance were targeted and the failures and misfires left the offense in 3rd down long yardage situations. Not a good thing if you want to keep a drive alive.

Hopefully with the offense playing at home, the offense can actually call audibles and more motions in the game. That may help the red zone blitz pick ups and possible hot route adjustments on weird all or nothing defensive calls by opposing teams. If there is one area of the offense I can point to - that is causing all the offensive breakdowns, it's the lack of the TE production, sub par pass protection by the O Line, and of course Colin's tendency to throw deep instead of getting the sure checkdown pass for positive yardage. You might as well throw in there some of G-ro's badly designed pass plays, but I don't think its as big a factor as failure to execute by the offensive players.

I think you're slightly missing the forrest through the trees here Geidi.

3rd downs are the "money" down but you've got to put yourself in manageable situations on 2nd and 3rd downs to make life easier for your QB, weaker pass protecting OL and own the TOP (if we're focused on the passing game here). Yes, overall, we have a good running game but NOT on 1st downs d/t predictability of play calling. Sometimes we'll take a shot on 1st downs (passing) and that will help our average production but think about it this way: if we're 30th in 1st down production and going backwards this much (averaging 10.6 & 10.4 yards to go when we don't pick up at least 4 yards), that means we have to hit some pretty big plays on 1st down once in a while to get your average UP to an overall 5.08 yard average; 30th in the NFL. Or some big passing plays to get UP to a 5.33 yard average or some big runs to get UP to a 4.89 yard average.

And yes, even against an 8-10 man run blitzing box, we still do get some 4+ yard gains. That happens with perfect execution and/or individual effort (will); what I call, "The Gore-effect."

But if you want to know why we are outmanned and outnumbered in pass protection on 2nd and 3rd downs, and why CK is often times scrambling for his life or why he almost always has to pass at the 2-2.5 second mark, etc., is forced into 8 of his 12 TD's on broken plays, have zero production in the 2nd halfs of games, etc. it's more often than not, b/c of predictable play calling on 1st downs that perpetually put us in 2nd and 3rd and longs, often times, playing right into a defenses hands (their strengths) esp. if they have any kind of pass rush and/or are aggressive at attacking the LOS. This is why I don't put 50% of the responsibility on CK as he walks up to 2nd down already behind the 8-ball.

This is why I call this the Anti-WCO. If this was a true WCO offense, 1st down production is THE down that sets up your series of play calling (i.e. how you play chess).

IIRC, when CK checked down to the RB in the middle of the field last game and picked up an easy 8 yards on 1st down, you should have heard the SoCal Niner's Chapter bar go crazy. They "get it." Now your play book is wide open to run/pass/PA.

Again, let's not ignore these stats and just focus on 3rd downs as that is the end result of poor play calling on 1st downs (coupled with some poor execution as well). You fix that and we're a playoff team. You then fix the RZ problems and we're a Superbowl winning team. Ironically, 1st down production and the RZ are very similar and it's where an OC earn their money: HaRoman.

Saints Game:
2nd and 10
2nd and 12
2nd and 8
2nd and 10
2nd and 17
2nd and 10
2nd and 12
2nd and 10
2nd and 8
2nd and 9
2nd and 19
2nd and 7
2nd and 10
2nd and 10
2nd and 10
2nd and 8
2nd and 10

Of the 25 2nd downs we had this game here is the breakdown:
17 times 25 times of >7 to go averaging 10.6 yards left to go

Giant's Game:
2nd and 18
2nd and 17
2nd and 11
2nd and 7
2nd and 8
2nd and 11
2nd and 10
2nd and 9
2nd and 10
2nd and 7
2nd and 8
2nd and 9

Only 19 2nd down opportunities this game:
12 of the 19 times of >7 yards to go averaging 10.4 yards to go

Originally posted by NCommand:
^^^ Manning IS his own OC. I'm safely assuming that was one of the reasons he didn't want to come here. B/c he'd want full control of HIS offense...not this hodge podge offense under HaRoman control.

Originally posted by jrice80:

Originally posted by NCommand:
That's the sole purpose of this thread and what I'm asking them to do; objective casual analysis. To review why we are, essentially, going BACKWARDS on first downs the mass majority of the time (mostly runs stuffed for lost yardage). 30th in the NFL. And this is a perpetual problem I've noted since Harbaugh first arrived under Alex's tenure as well. This is a 4-year issue now and one that is constantly ignored yet, to me, is the biggest factor why the OL can't pass protect, why CK is running for his life, is why we are forced to make something out of nothing (will ourselves to win) on individual ad lib plays, etc. When you're only playing with 2 downs, defenses are in a much better situation to dictate you and pin their ears back and they know they have an extra second to do it b/c you've got 7-20 yards to go! We've still managed to overcome some of this and are 20th in the NFL in total first downs but you can see how one leads to another; series of events.

It's like in golf when you shank a tee-shot. Now you're off in the rough. It doesn't mean you're totally screwed but the probability of making up for it on your next two shots, are dramatically reduced, to get par and even less, birdie.

I remember that we were good on 1st down with Alex at QB, so I checked the same site to view the stat for the last four years:

YEAR - RANK - Yards per play (run/pass/overall)
2014 - 30th - 4.89 5.33 5.08
2013 - 4th - 6.46 6.81 6.60
2012 - 2nd - 6.57 7.97 7.22
2011 - 9th - 6.50 7.11 6.76

Until this year we were one of the best team in the NFL in yards per play on first down.

This year there is something wrong.
The OL is playing badly, but this is partially understandable, given the change at C, Boone holding out and ADavis missing the offseason.
Gore is aging and he is becoming too slow to run outside, so the defenses can collapse the middle of the field; this plus the problems at OL could explain the poor run yards per play on first down this year.
The production has dropped equally on pass plays. To me, we are just executing plays like .... and everyone on the offensive side of the field seems to play for himself. There is too much ranting, shouting and pointing fingers, something that we were not used to see. I agree that leadership is severely missing on offense.

Yeah, I used to keep a "tracker" of our 1st down production for several years in here...in fact, one of the beat writers stole my work and posted my stats as his own. Be a bit cautious with the overall averages b/c they are averages and mostly, b/c we're a "chunk offense" so many of our passes are in the 15-20+ range there and one of these plays will off-set 5 consecutive negative-yard runs, etc. But it does give you a reference point and it did seem like we took more shots on 1st downs and got more overall production there the past 3 years.

I highlight the NFCCG against the Giants and everyone, like in here, focuses on the "money" 3rd downs...we were 1 for 13 but if you go back and rewatch that game, 1st downs were what was killing us more than anything.

Coming from a WCO-mindset and watching us play against WCO teams, you could easily see the dynamic in play calling/selections on 1st downs. Ours is generally to run up the middle against a brick wall against a defense waiting for it. If we get 4 or more yards, great. If not, we've still got 2 downs to play in our intermediate-deeper passing game. Can that work with CK's arm and legs and the personnel we've had over the years in VD (seam/wheel routes), Boldin, Crabtree, Johnson, Lloyd, etc.? Of course but everything has to be perfect which is why you constantly hear Roman talk about "execution!" One error and we're typically screwed which is why we have that "feel" this offense is herky-jerky and rarely ever "smooth."

A WCO typically places a large emphasis on 1st down production. That is not us. We are the Anti-WCO. A short passing game with an emphasis on the short receiver being the primary receiver to gain 4+ yards often times is not us. Check downs? Not us! We rely on an intermediate to deeper passing game and CK's legs to get us out of a holes...chunks plays, if you will. Fortunately, he's pretty good at that and with intermediate to deeper routes, there is often times plenty of room to run.

But do we make it easy for him? Hell no!

IMO this is one of the few threads on here which is legit because you can't really argue what happens on the field. I enjoy these breakdowns because of the gifs at the end...can't stand play breakdowns using still shots only as there is way too much room for hypotheticals - oh that guy was open, he should've done this and that. Meanwhile you watch the play in real time and it becomes much clearer why the play went the way it did.

What I find kind of crazy is that it took to page 4 to actually see the first play broken down. Before that it was the same crap we see in the Kap thread.

My take on the situation is simple. Kaepernick isn't where I thought he'd be given how he started in 2012. However he's a lot better than what some of you give him credit for.

I don't buy the fact that the guy isn't a good leader. I don't approve of how he acts off the field(i'm not a fan of the sneaker head mentality or him acting like haters are constantly out to get him or him putting on a tough guy act in front of the media) I do wish he was more humble, more appreciative of the opportunity he has and less flashy.

Having said that all of that has nothing to do with how he plays on the field. He's far from perfect but he's progressing despite an offense which I still believe restricts him as a QB. There's just too many similarities between Colin's deficiencies and what we saw with Alex Smith while he was here - outside the obvious in terms of throwing deep or throwing into tight windows.

Colin is still young and there is room to improve. He's already doing it but needs to get more consistent. I pray we're able to bring in an offensive coordinator who can really work with Colin and bring out the best in him. It's there and by all accounts Colin is not afraid of hard work. And simply put I don't think we can accurately assess what Colin is as a finished NFL QB without seeing him play with a different coordinator.

How much of his hesitancy on the field in some situations are due to him and how much is due to scheme? The anti Kap crew will say it's all him and Roman is just playcalling based on what Colin can do. The pro Kap crew will say Roman is holding Kap back. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Either way we will not know until there's a different coordinator in place. The scary thing is change brings uncertainty. You could bring in someone much better, someone about the same or someone worse.

But IMO at this point the best thing for this franchise is to move forward from Roman and take the gamble. Just have to be smart about it. Can't wait til last minute to hire someone just to get a body in there.

I'm just hopeful that Harbaugh wakes up and finally changes his mind of what he wants out of this offense. The talent is there and despite what OP says I believe we have plenty of leadership. Colin may not be Joe Montana but the guys around him know how hard he works. I don't believe for a second that they don't trust him as a leader. Crabtree certainly isn't helping things with his facial expressions but he's also not helping things with his hands.

Not every throw will be perfect. And not every game film breakdown will be kind to Colin. If you break down film from the Pats vs the Colts Tom Brady would look pretty terrible. If you break down his film from the Chiefs game earlier in the year he'd look even worse. Sometimes the QB just doesn't play well. It's up to the rest of the team to pick up the slack.

Hopefully Colin is able to rebound and the rest of his offensive teammates help him out. A QB needs to be confident in the scheme and the guys around him. This year hasn't led to too much confidence unfortunately. It needs to change if we want to make the playoffs and make a push to the Superbowl.

Originally posted by VinculumJuris:

Originally posted by sanjo49er:

Originally posted by thl408:
3rd Down Failure #4

1st Down: Gore for -1
2nd Down: Incomplete deep to Lloyd

49ers: No idea what Crabs and Boldin are trying to do and why they are so close to one another running down the field. Then stopping near one another.
NYG: cover4


Kap hits the top of his dropback and looks to his left. If he is going to throw Crab's Deep Out, it needs to be now, before Crabs starts his break as this is a far throw. But with the CB watching Kap, it's a risky throw. Boldin's route is not helping since it brings another defender into the area.


Kap starts his windup to target Crabs and the CB on Crabs sees it the whole way. The CB drives on the throw.


Lucky this pass was not INTed as the CB got his fingers on the ball. Would not have been a first down anyway.


I will continue the rest of this series tomorrow. Enough 'fail' for one night, especially in a 49er victory.

"Take what the Defense gives u"

You mean take the first down to Lloyd? That would have been the right throw to make. Perfect pass protection, but he didn't give the play long enough to develop or even really look at the right side of the field. That's on Kap...

Yup I was watching this and he didn't even look towards the right side. he had plenty of time to scan the field and didn't even look the other way. How about kap throws a little pump fake in there every once in a while?

Johnny D, can you give us an example of the things Kap has to do to lead by example and make his teammates better, are these thing mental, or are you just saying he needs to play better period? Because that's where I'm at.