KC Chiefs coaches film analysis

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:

Originally posted by thl408:

I hear ya. You said they 'never schemed anything that winds up easy' in the red zone so those were examples of red zone throws that I personally thought were easy throws to WRs with separation. I don't know why they don't do the things you mentioned, because they should.

The STevie Johnson TD was an easy TD. These one's not so much, to me. Thanks for posting all the film. This is really the best read in the zone.

I think the biggest difference between now and the dynasty in regards to the scoring zone is we want to be a power run team. In the dynasty days, the name of the game was overall balence but establishing the passing game was paramont to making everything work because the run game was not power in nature.

Jim and greg have established a power attack so in their mind the best play is grinding the ball and play passing off the run. In the dynasty days, we essentially took whatever the defense was willing to give. You want to let us us sprint opt hitting jerry on a out in he redzone so be it. Since the running attack wasn't as power in natural, it main way to succeed was getting the defense worried about all the options in the passing game.

Now, I see merits in both attacks but I much rather prefer the style of the dynasty days. I believe that we could be like that today. With kaps legs and ability to make different platform throws, I honestly think we would be pretty scary adopting using more sprint/waggle throws in the redzone.

The Anti-WCO.

As much as I would love an offense that passed to set up the run like our hey day, I really do think the state of our OL has been a huge factor in our style. Until we find a way to pass protect on a consistent basis, I kinda agree with the ground & pound attack. We just really struggle in pure passing situations.

We just seem to be a very good run blocking unit, but are mediocre(bad at times) at best in terms of passing pro. I think Davis's injury has really affected this and martin's injury has hampered the depth it appears we will have when fully heathy.

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:

Originally posted by thl408:

I hear ya. You said they 'never schemed anything that winds up easy' in the red zone so those were examples of red zone throws that I personally thought were easy throws to WRs with separation. I don't know why they don't do the things you mentioned, because they should.

The STevie Johnson TD was an easy TD. These one's not so much, to me. Thanks for posting all the film. This is really the best read in the zone.

I think the biggest difference between now and the dynasty in regards to the scoring zone is we want to be a power run team. In the dynasty days, the name of the game was overall balence but establishing the passing game was paramont to making everything work because the run game was not power in nature.

Jim and greg have established a power attack so in their mind the best play is grinding the ball and play passing off the run. In the dynasty days, we essentially took whatever the defense was willing to give. You want to let us us sprint opt hitting jerry on a out in he redzone so be it. Since the running attack wasn't as power in natural, it main way to succeed was getting the defense worried about all the options in the passing game.

Now, I see merits in both attacks but I much rather prefer the style of the dynasty days. I believe that we could be like that today. With kaps legs and ability to make different platform throws, I honestly think we would be pretty scary adopting using more sprint/waggle throws in the redzone.

I think we will eventually balance the offense out as Colin just gets better and better as a pocket passer. As for us returning to the pass first philosophy, I don't think it really matters as long as we have a balanced attack.

The rules do favor the passing game more than the run game - so a balanced attack using the Harbaugh offense might be 49% run 51% pass. Whereas the Reid offense would be 61% pass 39% run.

I think a run first offense does make it easier playing QB in those kinds of offenses, so if your franchise QB does go down, the incoming QB will have a much easier time managing the game than a pass first offense. Finally the 49er dynasty offenses of the past won't be cap friendly in today's era. You needed precision and multiple offensive weapons to make those offenses work and those aren't cheap in today's dollars.

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:

Originally posted by thl408:

I hear ya. You said they 'never schemed anything that winds up easy' in the red zone so those were examples of red zone throws that I personally thought were easy throws to WRs with separation. I don't know why they don't do the things you mentioned, because they should.

The STevie Johnson TD was an easy TD. These one's not so much, to me. Thanks for posting all the film. This is really the best read in the zone.

I think the biggest difference between now and the dynasty in regards to the scoring zone is we want to be a power run team. In the dynasty days, the name of the game was overall balence but establishing the passing game was paramont to making everything work because the run game was not power in nature.

Jim and greg have established a power attack so in their mind the best play is grinding the ball and play passing off the run. In the dynasty days, we essentially took whatever the defense was willing to give. You want to let us us sprint opt hitting jerry on a out in he redzone so be it. Since the running attack wasn't as power in natural, it main way to succeed was getting the defense worried about all the options in the passing game.

Now, I see merits in both attacks but I much rather prefer the style of the dynasty days. I believe that we could be like that today. With kaps legs and ability to make different platform throws, I honestly think we would be pretty scary adopting using more sprint/waggle throws in the redzone.

The Anti-WCO.

As much as I would love an offense that passed to set up the run like our hey day, I really do think the state of our OL has been a huge factor in our style. Until we find a way to pass protect on a consistent basis, I kinda agree with the ground & pound attack. We just really struggle in pure passing situations.

We just seem to be a very good run blocking unit, but are mediocre(bad at times) at best in terms of passing pro. I think Davis's injury has really affected this and martin's injury has hampered the depth it appears we will have when fully heathy.

Agree. I'm with John Madden when he says your team is built around your offensive and defensive lines. Regarding our offense, they are just too big and powerful for a pass first offense. Our linemen are road graders and to have them pass protect better - they need to be more quick and agile than strong.

In pass protection you are giving up ground and absorbing the defensive charge. It doesn't take a lot of power to do that. Whereas in run blocking you have to move the defensive player out of the way with both mass and power. That's why Kilgore - in my opinion - doesn't fit this offense. He's a good player and would be outstanding in a pass first offense, but just *good* in our offense. I think when a guy like Marcus Martin replaces Kilgore - you'll have a legendary line. If he performs as advertised.

Originally posted by Niners816:
As much as I would love an offense that passed to set up the run like our hey day, I really do think the state of our OL has been a huge factor in our style. Until we find a way to pass protect on a consistent basis, I kinda agree with the ground & pound attack. We just really struggle in pure passing situations.

We just seem to be a very good run blocking unit, but are mediocre(bad at times) at best in terms of passing pro. I think Davis's injury has really affected this and martin's injury has hampered the depth it appears we will have when fully heathy.

I really don't think pass protection will ever be the strength of this line unless they change some of the parts. Iupati and Boone don't seem to be nimble guards and Davis is beatable by quick pass rushers. This opens the probablity that one or two rushers will get to Kaepernick every play...and that's been the issue. Staley is able to stay with speed rushers and handle bull rushes,

M Martin or Kilgore need to play more before analyzing them because the problems between centers and guards can be the fault of either or both.

Boone allowing guys to run right by him because he didn't bother to check left when helping Davis is similar to a OLB loosing contain while pass rushing...it's usually a mental mistake. He is so aggressive that it likely drives him nuts to stay put and wait for the late rusher...needs more discipline.

Iupati is extremely strong but often gets lost between center and tackle and doesn't always pick the right guy to block.

Problems might be the system of blocking they use as well. I seldom see them drop into a traditional pocket, which might help the guards and center...but that would put CK in a box and make it more difficult for hom to scramble.

Originally posted by Giedi:

I think we will eventually balance the offense out as Colin just gets better and better as a pocket passer. As for us returning to the pass first philosophy, I don't think it really matters as long as we have a balanced attack.

The rules do favor the passing game more than the run game - so a balanced attack using the Harbaugh offense might be 49% run 51% pass. Whereas the Reid offense would be 61% pass 39% run.

I think a run first offense does make it easier playing QB in those kinds of offenses, so if your franchise QB does go down, the incoming QB will have a much easier time managing the game than a pass first offense. Finally the 49er dynasty offenses of the past won't be cap friendly in today's era. You needed precision and multiple offensive weapons to make those offenses work and those aren't cheap in today's dollars.

That why I loved our dynasty day attack. We would pass to get a lead and then salt away games with the run on a tired/trailing defense. I vehemently oppose an overall ratio of 60/40 pass, that why I don't have the highest opinion for trestman and his stay as our OC. The preception of our dynasty team was a heavy passing attack, but for most years we where 50/50 in the case of walsh's title teams we actually had more run attempts. Even in today's pass happy league I still want to be balanced, but I would love to be able to dictate a little more in the pass game. Like you, I think this will come as kap continues to develop.

Originally posted by HearstFan:

Ok - I am going to get fired - I could read this all day!! THANK YOU. I tried to do a couple of these last season and it takes a TON of time, so much appreciation for all you are doing. Shoot, we should all chip in to buy your sports bar tab each weekend.

Anyway, one thing that is pretty clear to me watching the pass play designs of Andy Reid's offense is that Roman's pass scheme design is rudimentary compared to Reid.

ROMAN - It seems like Roman designs pass route combinations with THE HOPE that one of the guys breaks free, almost like hoping for a defensive mistake in coverage and then the QB spots that guy and throws to him. (I have complained about the simple route combinations for years now under Roman - although it was even worse under Nolan and Singletary, lol)

REID - the routes not only are designed to get A GUY open, but the other routes move the coverage and open the throwing lane. In other words, it isn't just a route combination for 1 guy to beat his man, the other routes work in conjunction to help the QB have a clean throwing lane, easy read of who is wide open, etc.

This is the aggravating part about Roman.

There is a thread detailing the differences between the two offenses. One is a option based offense and all the WR's work in concert to free up one guy by running certain routes in combination. That would be the Infante option route offense. The traditional WCO, predicts a defense and the route is run and the QB picks the open guy without really reading the defense. Classic example is the legendary sprint-right option where Dwight scores the winning TD against Dallas in '81.

I believe The thread was done by Thl408, jonnydell, and several others. It was a great thread with cut ups, gifs, and illustrations. Very informative.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Niners816:

As much as I would love an offense that passed to set up the run like our hey day, I really do think the state of our OL has been a huge factor in our style. Until we find a way to pass protect on a consistent basis, I kinda agree with the ground & pound attack. We just really struggle in pure passing situations.

We just seem to be a very good run blocking unit, but are mediocre(bad at times) at best in terms of passing pro. I think Davis's injury has really affected this and martin's injury has hampered the depth it appears we will have when fully heathy.

I really don't think pass protection will ever be the strength of this line unless they change some of the parts. Iupati and Boone don't seem to be nimble guards and Davis is beatable by quick pass rushers. This opens the probablity that one or two rushers will get to Kaepernick every play...and that's been the issue. Staley is able to stay with speed rushers and handle bull rushes,

M Martin or Kilgore need to play more before analyzing them because the problems between centers and guards can be the fault of either or both.

Boone allowing guys to run right by him because he didn't bother to check left when helping Davis is similar to a OLB loosing contain while pass rushing...it's usually a mental mistake. He is so aggressive that it likely drives him nuts to stay put and wait for the late rusher...needs more discipline.

Iupati is extremely strong but often gets lost between center and tackle and doesn't always pick the right guy to block.

Problems might be the system of blocking they use as well. I seldom see them drop into a traditional pocket, which might help the guards and center...but that would put CK in a box and make it more difficult for him to scramble.

Long developing go-routes don't help either...add a short-quick strike passing game COUPLED with our sideline intermediate passing game and now the defense can't stack the box and run blitz on first downs or pass rush with no worries on so many of these consequential 2nd and 3rd and longs.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

I really don't think pass protection will ever be the strength of this line unless they change some of the parts. Iupati and Boone don't seem to be nimble guards and Davis is beatable by quick pass rushers. This opens the probablity that one or two rushers will get to Kaepernick every play...and that's been the issue. Staley is able to stay with speed rushers and handle bull rushes,

M Martin or Kilgore need to play more before analyzing them because the problems between centers and guards can be the fault of either or both.

Boone allowing guys to run right by him because he didn't bother to check left when helping Davis is similar to a OLB loosing contain while pass rushing...it's usually a mental mistake. He is so aggressive that it likely drives him nuts to stay put and wait for the late rusher...needs more discipline.

Iupati is extremely strong but often gets lost between center and tackle and doesn't always pick the right guy to block.

Problems might be the system of blocking they use as well. I seldom see them drop into a traditional pocket, which might help the guards and center...but that would put CK in a box and make it more difficult for hom to scramble.

Well they play action pass a lot, which explains some of the *non-traditional* pocket formations. Generally when you play-pass the O-Line fires out as though it was a run and then drops into pass protection mode. That can lead into a pocket that isn't uniform based on what the defensive line does.

Having said that, I think our O Line players do have the talent to pass protect at lease for the 3 and 5 step drops. The 7 step play pass drops on the other hand, they seem to be having problems with that. Either the defenses are getting lucky and blitzing on those plays or the offense is giving away tells which is tipping off the defense regarding the 7 step drops. Either way, the offensive line does have to hold up better on those longer drops.

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by Giedi:

I think we will eventually balance the offense out as Colin just gets better and better as a pocket passer. As for us returning to the pass first philosophy, I don't think it really matters as long as we have a balanced attack.

The rules do favor the passing game more than the run game - so a balanced attack using the Harbaugh offense might be 49% run 51% pass. Whereas the Reid offense would be 61% pass 39% run.

I think a run first offense does make it easier playing QB in those kinds of offenses, so if your franchise QB does go down, the incoming QB will have a much easier time managing the game than a pass first offense. Finally the 49er dynasty offenses of the past won't be cap friendly in today's era. You needed precision and multiple offensive weapons to make those offenses work and those aren't cheap in today's dollars.

That why I loved our dynasty day attack. We would pass to get a lead and then salt away games with the run on a tired/trailing defense. I vehemently oppose an overall ratio of 60/40 pass, that why I don't have the highest opinion for trestman and his stay as our OC. The preception of our dynasty team was a heavy passing attack, but for most years we where 50/50 in the case of walsh's title teams we actually had more run attempts. Even in today's pass happy league I still want to be balanced, but I would love to be able to dictate a little more in the pass game. Like you, I think this will come as kap continues to develop.

I'm a firm believer in defense wins championships, and so from a cap perspective, I'm going to load up on the defensive side of the ball. I can see Haarbalke doing that with the current 49ers. On offense, the precision WCO takes two outstanding WR's a Great RB, and good pass protecting O Lines and of course a QB. That's a ton of cap space that will be devoted to the offense - when really, its defenses that wins championships. So I can see why Harbaugh will go with the Infante option route system and a heavy run game - simply because it's cheaper. I know the WCO was designed with inferior talent in mind, but just the fact that pretty much half the NFL uses the WCO philosophy makes those players that work best in the WCO (who were considered inferior in years prior to the WCO) now premium players.

As for Trestman, he's now below .500 - how he beat us, I don't know but I think he got !@#$ lucky as hell in beating us. I agree with you that I also think he's too pass happy. Chicago is going to be changing coaches soon.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Long developing go-routes don't help either...add a short-quick strike passing game COUPLED with our sideline intermediate passing game and now the defense can't stack the box and run blitz on first downs or pass rush with no worries on so many of these consequential 2nd and 3rd and longs.

Agree with adding more short strike plays to help the line out. Much of the lines success involves good play calling...keeping the defense off guard.

Originally posted by Giedi:
Well they play action pass a lot, which explains some of the *non-traditional* pocket formations. Generally when you play-pass the O-Line fires out as though it was a run and then drops into pass protection mode. That can lead into a pocket that isn't uniform based on what the defensive line does.

Having said that, I think our O Line players do have the talent to pass protect at lease for the 3 and 5 step drops. The 7 step play pass drops on the other hand, they seem to be having problems with that. Either the defenses are getting lucky and blitzing on those plays or the offense is giving away tells which is tipping off the defense regarding the 7 step drops. Either way, the offensive line does have to hold up better on those longer drops.

I really don't see the pocket concept used very often, not just on seven step drops. It looks to me like the philosophy is to keep the defense at the LOS so Kaepernick can run when necessary...sort of a spread concept-which works to keep outside speed rushers at bay.

Originally posted by DeUh:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by DeUh:

Too early...

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by DeUh:

Too early...

Not if you're on the East Coast...haha (but I'm with you...coffee here on the West Coast).

Frank Gore runs between Bruce Miller and the blocker he had engaged

San Francisco 49ers running back Frank Gore has vision unlike virtually any running back in the NFL. This particular run against the Kansas City Chiefs shows it better than anything.







Jim Harbaugh

"I've seen something I've never seen in football on one of Frank's long runs, a 15, 20-yarder, where Bruce blocked his man and then Frank ran between Bruce and the defender he was blocking, and then came out the other side. It was really something to be seen. Almost like those car racers, when they drive through the smoke of an accident. He just went right through it. No, he didn't get touched. He was missing by the narrowest of margins. I can honestly say I've never seen a runner run between a blocker and a defender until now. Frank Gore."



http://www.ninersnation.com/2014/10/11/6961059/frank-gore-runs-between-bruce-miller-and-the-blocker-he-had-engaged