Philadelphia Eagles coaches game analysis

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by jonnydel:
Isn't that what every team looks for every year??? They don't pop up that often. You're talking about hall of fame x2..... If you had the receiver you're describing, anyone garbage QB could look good throwing to that guy....

Rodgers, Manning, Brees all have been stellar QB's without the aforementioned hypothetical receiver. QB's make great QB's, not receivers. Young and Montana were great because they were great, not because of Jerry Rice. He just made their job a little easier - but they weren't any less great.

We did have a shot at a top of the line WR, but instead we went defense with Ward. I understand that the price was too high to get one of the genetic freak WR's in this years draft. No problem. Defense wins championships anyway. The point I was trying to make was that if we are going to run the kind of offense that a strong armed guy like Colin is going to excel at, we should try to get the right personnel for the job. I think Ellington and Patton have the right kind of talent, but clearly are still rookies/inexperienced and the veterans Anquan, Lloyd and Stevie have played at a much higher level at this point. But, I'd like them to be more involved in the passing game at some point to really see if they can shine in this offense. The kind of offense that G-ro is calling is the kind that works better with very fast WR's. If he was going to call a WCO kind of passing attack, our whole O Line has to be re-designed. From a WCO perspective, our O Line is too big and slow and can't pass protect, but from a vertical offense point of view, our O line is perfect for that kind of offense. Unfortunately our starting WR's aren't the best match for a vertical offense. I think that's why you see the frustration of all the members here regarding the playcalling with G-ro.

And what you pointed out earlier is part of my frustration with a lot of peoples frustration lol. Do we try and take advantage of the strengths of our O-line or receivers?? I think G-Ro does try and take advantage of our receivers' strengths a lot of the time - but, when we run a lot of shorter routes everyone complains that we have to hit the big vertical play to open things up. We try the vertical stuff and it doesn't work and everyone says that G-Ro is trying to shoehorn receivers in and not utilizing their strengths. Then we run other stuff and the O-line fails and we blame him that he's not playing to our line's strength.

After a while, it seems like there's absolutely nothing this guy can do right in anyone's eyes and he's blamed for EVERYTHING.

I've said it a lot before, but, he definitely has his hand in some things not working - but every offensive coordinator in NFL history has called bad plays in every single game they've called. What I see on film, the scales are tipped more on the players right now than the OC for our offense not being more explosive.

Originally posted by thl408:
Throw the Ball! #7

Kap drops back and looks to his right. Then rolls right. Thrown away out of bounds.


49ers: All curls (zone buster) to the left and over the middle. Boldin on a Go route. Most likely a back shoulder throw because when was the last time Boldin was targeted for a Go route?
PHI: Some hybrid coverage. They man up on Boldin and zone everywhere else on the field.


The three Curls break on their route. The underneath zone defenders are stretched horizontally with Miller being the optimal target, but we know Kap never looked left, he was looking to Boldin.


Kap rolls right and creates the pressure for himself.

It looked a lot like Cover 2 to me. Boundary side S walked up into the box for run support flips flat/deep 1/2 responsibilities with CB. Field side CB presses as part of his flat responsibility, then follows the vertical once #2 stems inside (no flat threat). Hook/curl flows to the flat with the QB's rollout.

It's actually a clever swap in responsibility that they did on the boundary side. They obviously needed the run support, without sacrificing coverage. It ends up playing like cover 3, with the CB taking the deep zone and the S playing a traditional SS role. Of course, the CB's initial footwork takes him over the numbers indicating that he is, in fact, covering a 1/2 instead of a 1/3, but otherwise it looks like Cover 3 on that side. I don't think I've ever seen us do this. Fangio likes that 4 across look for his chess game

Originally posted by thl408:

A gutsy playcall here gets the 49ers a big 3rd down conversion. This is on the drive that results in the last FG to push the lead from 2 to 5.

3rd & 13
PHI looks to blitz up the middle.


They put a LB and a safety right over the A gaps. The best place to attack is the edge of the formation. 49ers call a QB Sweep.


Kap gets the ball and immediately runs to his left. Boldin targets his crack back block as Iupati pulls and Hyde leads.


Iupati is unable to get to the edge because the LB gets penetration and pushes Iupati, disrupting his path to the edge. Boldin just completed his block.


Gain of 16.

That's what makes the WCO so unstoppable once you have good athletes (note: I know we don't run the WCO the way Walsh did it) When teams start teeing off on the QB and also zoning the offense, Walsh comes in with the Green Bay sweep, which kills a lot of stunts, dogs, and blitzes to the inside. Now, while I understand our personnel is built for the inside run game, I think a worthwile goal is to also develop the outside run game - despite our personnel's strength being inside. Just like Lemon-Yay, if all you have are speed moves and no power moves, how are you going to be a consistent pass rusher if you don't have counters?

In G-ro's case. I'd like to see our O Linemen run some sweeps. I know this won't be a staple of the offense the way our off tackle runs are a staple of this offense, but I think it can be a great counter to the inside blitzes that defenses are dialing up against the Guard Center gap because of a new player in Goodwin and a holdout player in Boone. Even better, maybe employ the counter trey. I know the HOgs under Joe Gibbs weren't a sweep team, but that Counter Trey with Riggens (Carlos Hyde) might just do the trick against those inside run blitzes. Staley is pretty fast for a left tackle that he can probably run the counter trey effectively. I'm just sick and tired of the defense shooting the Guard/Center gap and stalling our offense.

Originally posted by Giedi:
That's what makes the WCO so unstoppable once you have good athletes (note: I know we don't run the WCO the way Walsh did it) When teams start teeing off on the QB and also zoning the offense, Walsh comes in with the Green Bay sweep, which kills a lot of stunts, dogs, and blitzes to the inside. Now, while I understand our personnel is built for the inside run game, I think a worthwile goal is to also develop the outside run game - despite our personnel's strength being inside. Just like Lemon-Yay, if all you have are speed moves and no power moves, how are you going to be a consistent pass rusher if you don't have counters?

In G-ro's case. I'd like to see our O Linemen run some sweeps. I know this won't be a staple of the offense the way our off tackle runs are a staple of this offense, but I think it can be a great counter to the inside blitzes that defenses are dialing up against the Guard Center gap because of a new player in Goodwin and a holdout player in Boone. Even better, maybe employ the counter trey. I know the HOgs under Joe Gibbs weren't a sweep team, but that Counter Trey with Riggens (Carlos Hyde) might just do the trick against those inside run blitzes. Staley is pretty fast for a left tackle that he can probably run the counter trey effectively. I'm just sick and tired of the defense shooting the Guard/Center gap and stalling our offense.

We could probably run our counter with the current scheme, but have the pulling guard execute a log blog instead of his kickout. That should tell the ISO lead and RB to go outside of him, and everything inside to backside should still be blocked up. As lonn as Miller hits on his iso block and the WR doesn't get tossed around by a CB, we have a good play that is already familiar to 8 of the 11 offensive players.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Isn't that what every team looks for every year??? They don't pop up that often. You're talking about hall of fame x2..... If you had the receiver you're describing, anyone garbage QB could look good throwing to that guy....

Rodgers, Manning, Brees all have been stellar QB's without the aforementioned hypothetical receiver. QB's make great QB's, not receivers. Young and Montana were great because they were great, not because of Jerry Rice. He just made their job a little easier - but they weren't any less great.

We did have a shot at a top of the line WR, but instead we went defense with Ward. I understand that the price was too high to get one of the genetic freak WR's in this years draft. No problem. Defense wins championships anyway. The point I was trying to make was that if we are going to run the kind of offense that a strong armed guy like Colin is going to excel at, we should try to get the right personnel for the job. I think Ellington and Patton have the right kind of talent, but clearly are still rookies/inexperienced and the veterans Anquan, Lloyd and Stevie have played at a much higher level at this point. But, I'd like them to be more involved in the passing game at some point to really see if they can shine in this offense. The kind of offense that G-ro is calling is the kind that works better with very fast WR's. If he was going to call a WCO kind of passing attack, our whole O Line has to be re-designed. From a WCO perspective, our O Line is too big and slow and can't pass protect, but from a vertical offense point of view, our O line is perfect for that kind of offense. Unfortunately our starting WR's aren't the best match for a vertical offense. I think that's why you see the frustration of all the members here regarding the playcalling with G-ro.

And what you pointed out earlier is part of my frustration with a lot of peoples frustration lol. Do we try and take advantage of the strengths of our O-line or receivers?? I think G-Ro does try and take advantage of our receivers' strengths a lot of the time - but, when we run a lot of shorter routes everyone complains that we have to hit the big vertical play to open things up. We try the vertical stuff and it doesn't work and everyone says that G-Ro is trying to shoehorn receivers in and not utilizing their strengths. Then we run other stuff and the O-line fails and we blame him that he's not playing to our line's strength.

After a while, it seems like there's absolutely nothing this guy can do right in anyone's eyes and he's blamed for EVERYTHING.

I've said it a lot before, but, he definitely has his hand in some things not working - but every offensive coordinator in NFL history has called bad plays in every single game they've called. What I see on film, the scales are tipped more on the players right now than the OC for our offense not being more explosive.

Agree. The mismatch between the WR's we have and the O line we have are disconcerting. It shouldn't be that way. By now, it's the 4rth draft and we still don't have a burner on the outside to relive the inside pressure on the X receiver. I think that's why VD's injury affects this offense so much. He's the only vertical threat and he's also critical in the run blocking game. That Jenkin's bust choice is still affecting us. If you look at Seadderall's offense, they have some legit speed burners on that offense - despite choosing dead last, last year. If there is a page that Baalke and Harbaugh are not on, it may be on the WR position. Baalke seems to choose via free agency and the draft, the more bulky WCO WR type, whereas Harbaugh - while in college - liked the smaller Owusu/Jenkins kind of speed WR. I'm sure 95% of the time both are in agreement, but I think they are struggling on the WR position in more ways than one.

If there is an answer, it may be that G-ro has to call more short timing square in and out routes and less AR1 and AR2 kind of option routes because it takes too long to read the AR principles, whereas the WCO, either you are open or you are not. It may be that we are not running a more diversified running attack. We are predominantly a right handed off tackle team and we just may be too predictable on the runs in that way. I'd like possibly more outside runs and reverse counters just to vary the location where the run is going. I get the feeling on 3rd and 1, G-ro is going to be predictable and go off tackle right 90% of the time.

Finally, if Colin can just be more patient and take the checkdown pass, that can open up the vertical game too by drawing the defense towards the LOS. I get the feeling that he's so aggressive and confident that he always looks deep to shallow, and the defense takes advantage of that by dropping deep and letting the shallow routes alone. If he can vary where he is attacking the defense, I think this offense is set to explode, even though we have a mismatch in WR's vs O LInemen - in our system.

Originally posted by Niners816:
I think joe and steve would've taken curl on that play. I think this was a situation where down and distance factored in and kap's belief in his arm made the out the throw. Shame is, if he ropes the throw it's an easy first down.

Is this not the same route concept that was used during last years' wild card round against GB? During the last drive, Kap rifles it to the WR cutting outside and was nearly picked off to end our season.

Was this not the same route combination during the NFCCG when Seattle intercepted Kap when he tried to rifle it, again, to the WR cutting outside during the 4thqtr? This route combination, I believe, really is a tough throw no matter how you put it because you will either get intercepted if the ball is thrown on a rope, or a bigger chance of overthrowing the ball ex.- in this case over Boldin's head when trying to avoid the underneath CB from intercepting it. The post above stated the throw should have gone to Crabs and have him YAC for the first down. I know that is what Montana, Young and Smith would have done. Safer/higher % throw in my opinion and with a great chance for our WR to fight for the first down.

Originally posted by WRATHman44:

Originally posted by Giedi:

That's what makes the WCO so unstoppable once you have good athletes (note: I know we don't run the WCO the way Walsh did it) When teams start teeing off on the QB and also zoning the offense, Walsh comes in with the Green Bay sweep, which kills a lot of stunts, dogs, and blitzes to the inside. Now, while I understand our personnel is built for the inside run game, I think a worthwile goal is to also develop the outside run game - despite our personnel's strength being inside. Just like Lemon-Yay, if all you have are speed moves and no power moves, how are you going to be a consistent pass rusher if you don't have counters?

In G-ro's case. I'd like to see our O Linemen run some sweeps. I know this won't be a staple of the offense the way our off tackle runs are a staple of this offense, but I think it can be a great counter to the inside blitzes that defenses are dialing up against the Guard Center gap because of a new player in Goodwin and a holdout player in Boone. Even better, maybe employ the counter trey. I know the HOgs under Joe Gibbs weren't a sweep team, but that Counter Trey with Riggens (Carlos Hyde) might just do the trick against those inside run blitzes. Staley is pretty fast for a left tackle that he can probably run the counter trey effectively. I'm just sick and tired of the defense shooting the Guard/Center gap and stalling our offense.

We could probably run our counter with the current scheme, but have the pulling guard execute a log blog instead of his kickout. That should tell the ISO lead and RB to go outside of him, and everything inside to backside should still be blocked up. As lonn as Miller hits on his iso block and the WR doesn't get tossed around by a CB, we have a good play that is already familiar to 8 of the 11 offensive players.

I hope I have this correct. If the DE pinches in, what you are saying is have the pulling guard execute a block to knock the DE's feet away from him? DE, if he sees that, can just jump over the block though? That will gumm up that run play right there? The Green Bay sweep, on the other hand, the DE is being crack back blocked by the TE, and both guards are vacating the inside to go outside. So if the defense blitzes inside they will be very hard pressed to go outside just by position after they have passed the LOS and it's going to be a big gain for Frank or Carlos. I think the sweep, even if it gains just a couple of yards, should slow down and or stop a defense from blitzing the Guard Center gap that this offense seems to have trouble diagnosing and stopping.

I like your idea of counter runs to the other side (left side) also. That will really screw up a defense dead set in stopping an off tackle play to the right.

Originally posted by sanbrunorams:

Is this not the same route concept that was used during last years' wild card round against GB? During the last drive, Kap rifles it to the WR cutting outside and was nearly picked off to end our season.

Was this not the same route combination during the NFCCG when Seattle intercepted Kap when he tried to rifle it, again, to the WR cutting outside during the 4thqtr? This route combination, I believe, really is a tough throw no matter how you put it because you will either get intercepted if the ball is thrown on a rope, or a bigger chance of overthrowing the ball ex.- in this case over Boldin's head when trying to avoid the underneath CB from intercepting it. The post above stated the throw should have gone to Crabs and have him YAC for the first down. I know that is what Montana, Young and Smith would have done. Safer/higher % throw in my opinion and with a great chance for our WR to fight for the first down.

If memory serves me, the pick vs Seattle was Playaction out of I form with the WR running an out route. It really wasn't a variation of the spot concept. The play in question here was a variation of the spot concept. The spot is a three WR concept in which one runs a corner, one WR runs a curl and one WR runs to the flat. The variation he is it looks like boldin took his "flat" route to the sticks for first down yardage.

Now I would have preferred kap to take the curl, but there was a window to complete the pass to anquan so it's alittle different than the nfcc pick vs Seattle.

This is the Gore TD catch. This play really illustrates how much attention VD gets, and how much attention Kap's scrambling demands from the opposing defense.

49ers: To Kap's left is a basic man buster. Lloyd runs the clearing route for Boldin to work his pivot route. To Kap's right are two Post patterns to attack a single high safety.
PHI: Cover1 man. #90 is OLB Marcus Smith. He is assigned man coverage of Gore.


Lloyd is seen clearing the area. Boldin breaks to the inside to sell an inside route. Kap is looking to his left. I couldn't tell from the end zone camera whether Kap is looking to Boldin or Lloyd, but I think Kap is waiting for Boldin to work back to the outside. It's possible Kap is thinking about a throw to Lloyd, but the CB is over the top of Lloyd and Lloyd has a cushion to close.


As Boldin pivots his route back to the outside, Iupati gets thrown to the ground and Kap sees the pressure in his face. This prevents Kap from throwing to Boldin. Orange is seen giving attention to VD, although VD is not his man. Gore is seen finishing his check release assignment.


The pressure given up by Iupati causes Kap to roll left. Gore comes in contact with a DLman, but that DLman also reacts to Kap scrambling. Kap rolling left causes orange to mirror Kap.


Orange abandons his assignment (Gore) and Gore is seen sneaking to the other side of the field.


Being such an arm thrower allows Kap to throw from any body position. The running-sidearm-jumping-across the body throw.


Silly safety, you can't tackle Gore high.


Touchdown!

Originally posted by WRATHman44:
It looked a lot like Cover 2 to me. Boundary side S walked up into the box for run support flips flat/deep 1/2 responsibilities with CB. Field side CB presses as part of his flat responsibility, then follows the vertical once #2 stems inside (no flat threat). Hook/curl flows to the flat with the QB's rollout.

It's actually a clever swap in responsibility that they did on the boundary side. They obviously needed the run support, without sacrificing coverage. It ends up playing like cover 3, with the CB taking the deep zone and the S playing a traditional SS role. Of course, the CB's initial footwork takes him over the numbers indicating that he is, in fact, covering a 1/2 instead of a 1/3, but otherwise it looks like Cover 3 on that side. I don't think I've ever seen us do this. Fangio likes that 4 across look for his chess game

Good take WRATH. Cover2 Invert is what you are describing and it does look like it based on what the boundary CB and safety does.

Originally posted by jonnydel:
And what you pointed out earlier is part of my frustration with a lot of peoples frustration lol. Do we try and take advantage of the strengths of our O-line or receivers?? I think G-Ro does try and take advantage of our receivers' strengths a lot of the time - but, when we run a lot of shorter routes everyone complains that we have to hit the big vertical play to open things up. We try the vertical stuff and it doesn't work and everyone says that G-Ro is trying to shoehorn receivers in and not utilizing their strengths. Then we run other stuff and the O-line fails and we blame him that he's not playing to our line's strength.

After a while, it seems like there's absolutely nothing this guy can do right in anyone's eyes and he's blamed for EVERYTHING.

I've said it a lot before, but, he definitely has his hand in some things not working - but every offensive coordinator in NFL history has called bad plays in every single game they've called. What I see on film, the scales are tipped more on the players right now than the OC for our offense not being more explosive.

I've read posters say that when the offense succeeds, it is despite Roman. He can do no right. The harsh Roman critics will completely dismiss any good playcall, but when there's a bad playcall, a new thread is created in NT.

These are seriously some of the best threads I've seen on the zone. Thanks

Originally posted by BleedsRedNGold:

Originally posted by thl408:
Throw the Ball! #2

49ers: 4 Verticals
PHI: Cover 1 man

49ers going for the end zone again.


Kap initially looks to VD who is double teamed (over the top safety/trailing CB). Kap then looks to the backside vertical (Lloyd). Lloyd is also bracketed left/right. 4 verticals near the red zone is a rhythm throw. Eventually the WRs are going to run out of room to run and the routes become dead.


Kap scrambles for +9. FG time.

The lack of an additional vertical threat hurts us here. This is where Moss and Gin would have put the safety in a dilemma. I thought that maybe Ellington is that guy. He runs a 4.3-4.4 but I'm not sure how good his route running is at this point. But there's no reason he shouldn't be able to command the same coverage as a Desean Jackson or T.Y. Hilton.

Lol @ comparing Ellington's speed to DeSean Jacksons

I attempted to "tease out" the quality scheme vs. individual efforts in our passing game. Thoughts? Feel free to challenge...

This is just for the passing game (189 yards). Our leading receiver only had 5 catches for 62 yards and 55 were on the ad lib play by CK+Gore for the TD. Obviously, of the 218 rushing yards, Gore had 119 and CK picked up another 58 on scrambles/designed runs but that's for another post.

(Whole Number) = Positive yards by design/play call (good primary/secondary receiver route and/or check down option)
(+) = Positive yards d/t individual effort on poor design
(/) = Negative yards d/t poor design
(NG) = No grade; doesn't count for or against either (run/scramble/OL issues)

1Q - First Series:
First down – (3) Design got VD involved early (like this).
Second down – (NG) Incomplete. May have had Boldin out wide under 2 seconds but "no grade" means we don't count it for or against anyone.
Third down – (/12). All go-routes gave CK no options whatsoever. Sack.

Second Series:
First down – (NG) Incomplete. Crowd booing already. Doesn't count for or against anyone although I didn't like the design here b/c the primary read was to the right with only 1 WR and he wasn't even turned around.
Second down – (NG) Audible out of pass to run.
First down – (+3) Jumbo formation brings 10 defenders up within 5 yards of the LOS and we toss a "screen" to Crabtree. We got 3 yards so I give Crabtree +3 for making something out of nothing.
Second down – (NG) Run, Gore picks up 6
Third down – (NG) +17 negated d/t penalty. Original design had nobody to the right where CK first looked (primary read); had no second read either to that side but found Stevie on the backside on a broken ad lib play. Great individual effort by CK and Johnson.
First down – (NG) Penalty (illegal contact). CK instantly pressured, scrambles and gains 9.
Second down – (NG) Gore gains 5 off RG.
First down – (21) Original design had a flood on the left which was covered BUT the design also had Lloyd on a deep square in (middle of the field was open all day) on the right. Nice design!
First down – (NG) 4 WR go routes, CK pressured, spins and follows Gore but runs OOB for a sack and a 4 yard loss. Poor design with known pressure at this juncture could count against HaRoman here but CK could have also throw it away. We'll call it even and count it as a "run." NG
Second down – (NG) Run
Third down – (4)(+6). Boldin catches a 4-yard design underneath and muscles through 5 guys for the first down.
First down – (NG) Run
Second down – (/3) 2 WR's split out right (no options on the left). And by WR I mean, Bruce Miller. Naturally, neither can do anything and CK is sacked. Odd formation giving your QB absolutely nothing. Naturally, there is a holding which I probably should count as a (/10) play but I'll count the original (/3) sack instead.
Second down – (NG). Not much of a chance for the first down (18) on the drag route underneath with Stevie but he dropped it anyway. Play call may have picked up some positive yards at least making 3rd down more manageable.
Third down – (NG). This may be the worst design yet. Again, from the Philly 20, we run 4 go-routes. FG.

Third Series:
First down – (NG) Run
Second down – (NG) 5 WR. I like this one b/c you have multiple receivers at varying distances (finally!). Of course CK goes to the deepest guy in triple/quadruple coverage who's also clearly injured in VD…who drops it. But this one had potential.
Third down – (N/G) Run
First down – (NG) I considered (/5) on this one b/c of the sack but Staley just whiffs and Gore did open up as a check down. I considered adding it b/c our long go-routes were killing ourselves esp. given how much Philly was bringing pressure up through the A gaps and we weren't adjusting. But I'll be nice since it was first down and that's the down you take a shot/chance.

End of 1Q

Tally:
(28) = Positive yards by design/play call (good primary/secondary receiver route and/or check down option)
(+9) = Positive yards d/t individual effort on poor design
(/15) = Negative yards d/t poor design
(16 NG) = No grade; doesn't count for or against either (run/scramble/OL issues/throw away)
(22 Total Chances)

Assessment:
So what this says is that of the 22 chances we gave ourselves on 3 series, we only utilized the passing game (positive or negative) 6 times in end results! Didn't it feel like we attempted way more passes? We did...they just didn't pan out and turned into scrambles. And of these 6, we gained 28 positive yards by design, 9 more by individual effort but lost 15 d/t poor design for a net gain of 22 yards. No matter how you slice it, this was a very poor passing game plan to start the game and the scoreboard reflected it as well (3 pts).

So extrapolated out, that's 88 total net yards for the game by quality design and add in 36 for individual effort plus two more ad lib individual plays: CK+Gore's 55 yard ad lib TD and CK+Johnson's 10 yard TD and there you have it…189 total yards. This means individual effort (talent, ad lib efforts) accounted for 101 of the 189 total yards. Does this sound about right to many re: our passing offense?

Originally posted by Rubberneck36:
These are seriously some of the best threads I've seen on the zone. Thanks

Easily.