CB situation

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:

Originally posted by JLowd:
I'm a little surprised no one is giving Cook much of a chance. I could see him playing the nickel with all the good things we've heard from OTAs. I think Jimmie is gonna sit most of year 1, barring an injury.

I have Cook making the 53.

Me too but he's an outside press CB like Brock/Culliver and their backups should be Cook/Johnson. I expect we'll see much more press this year than in the past.

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:

Originally posted by LVJay:
Brock, Reid, Bethea and Spillman are the locks.

Other side of Brock - Cully, Cox or Cookie. We'll just have to see about Cully's status (recovery and/or league discipline?) throughout TC and preseason. I'm okay with Cox (he's solid), but if anyone (Cookie, Johnson, Acker or whomever) can unseat Cox, then that's saying a lot right there.

Morris is doing his part to play the slot... did all he was asked to do in OTAs and it seemed like he impressed the coaches. He's the fastest, not afraid to hit someone going full throttle and has serious closing speed. The rookie yr is out of the way, he's focused and determined to win that spot. Did I mention he has serious closing speed

Ward was a smart pick (put him anywhere / backs up any spot), but I don't think he'll be a full starter this year unless someone gets hurt or a couple of guys don't pan out and get cut/practice squad. Ward will be competing with Morris and (IF) he beats him out, then it will be Morris that will be the back up to Ward. IMO, we're good with either one playing the slot. Of all the rookie DBs, Ward (of course) is the lock even though he is still recovering from injury (unless coaches think otherwise).

If Johnson and Acker step up and makes it (seriously) difficult for coaches to decide which one hits the PS, then that's a plus and definitely helps solidify our secondary.

Dahl, Mc Cray Cray, Ventrone and DJ Campbell... we'll see but..............

I seriously disagree here. IMHO, there isn't anyone on the roster who's better, more tailor made, than Ward for the nickle spot - NOBODY! Granted, Ward will have to earn his way on the field, as it should be. But lets face it, he's a first rounder, so hell get EVERY chance to earn the starting nickleback job. I remember last season many Zoners were saying the same thing about one Eric Reid and doubting him, and I thought then, as I think of Ward now, that he'd be our opening day starter. Now, I like Morris and hope we find a way to keep him on the 53. He'd be a starter on most teams. But I fully expect that Ward WILL earn that nickle spot, and I may be among the few here who thinks that. So for me there isn't an "IF" about it. Jimmie Ward will be a full participant for the REAL training camp when real jobs are on the line. And the fact he was held out of the rookie & voluntary camp will have absolutely no baring whatsoever on his ability to earn the starting nickle/slot CB spot. The guy had a Jones fracture, that he didn't even know he had until he had the routine medical examination at the scouting combine. Hell, many people that get this injury don't even know they have this fracture, especially athletes. In fact, Ward said he didn't even feel it, nor did he have any symptoms from it. I think people are making WAY too much of Ward not being at camp.


IMHO

I was waiting for you to find my comment (possible Ward/Morris dilemma), then quote me on it... what took you so long?

First off, about Reid, some in here may have had doubts, but I think many of us (including you/me) had a good feeling he'd pan out... he really had no choice since Goldson split and his first round status came with a lot of expectations. He got a lot of praise by the staff since he was drafted and he stepped up big time (Goldson who?!) There wasn't much after Whitner (Dahl/Spillman) at safety so, Reid was next in line... he only had to prove it in TC/preseason and the job was all his.

Ward really doesn't have the pressure Reid had (filling in shoes in a hurry). We have Brock/Cully and Morris/Cox/Cook/Mc Cray Cray/two other rooks. But stiil, I hope he's all healed up and ready to go full throttle. I think he would go all out even without 100% recovery. He's determined to prove all doubters wrong and mostly prove to himself that he can excel in the next level.

HOWEVER, because of his injury (didn't do much in OTAs), I believe Morris is far ahead of him (physically). Not to mention, he's got a year of the playbook/system down. He knows that Ward is expected to start, but Morris' pride and focus motivates him to make that leap from yr one to yr two.

I hope Ward gives Morris hell at competition. One of them is going to start and the other will be back up... when the back up steps in (be that Ward or Morris) we won't miss a beat. That's going to be one of our strong points in the secondary (IMHO).

BTW, I love Ward's history/story (the underdog all his life)... I'm always down with underdogs and TBH, I want him to be the starter, I don't want our first rounder benchwarming (not at that position). Although, it is clear that Morris is ahead of him as far as the one yr in the system and because he also has a lot of talent and speed (he's no dump truck)

Ward can be a quick learner and he's got the skill set/determination... we'll all be rooting for him. But keep in mind, Morris isn't going to be a little bump that Ward can easily hurdle over. Competition will be good.

There's no reason not to be optimistic as far as I'm concerned. Most believe Bethea, although not the tackler Witner was,will be an improvement in coverage. Jimmy Ward is a hybrid db who is supposedly a good cover guy. We got a bigger corner in Cooks who may prove to be valuable situationally against big receivers. Cully is back and we drafted acouple prospects. Yep, nothing to worry about yet. Of course things may not work out planned, and we don't have an elite shut down corner, but its not like we had an opportunity for one either with our cap situation and draft status.

Actually, as of now Morris is backing up Cox in the slot. Cox can't be written off just yet cause he started for us there last year. In TC to start it will be Cox 1st team, then Morris/Ward. With like you guys said one of the latter most likely and hopefully taking over by the season. However it pans out I'm actually excited about our cb situation because I wasn't a huge fan of Rogers or Brown tbh

still a lot of maybe's there. is definitely a problem if Ward can't participate in camp because he has to learn two positions. but if he's an aggressive guy hell find his way on the field one way or another. It's possible one of our starting corners is not on the roster yet.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:

Originally posted by JLowd:
I'm a little surprised no one is giving Cook much of a chance. I could see him playing the nickel with all the good things we've heard from OTAs. I think Jimmie is gonna sit most of year 1, barring an injury.

I have Cook making the 53.

Me too but he's an outside press CB like Brock/Culliver and their backups should be Cook/Johnson. I expect we'll see much more press this year than in the past.

Thanks for making these points! When they picked Cook up it was written that Fangio/Donatel wanted to be able to play different styles when necessary and Cook helps them in this regard. All of a sudden folks are writing him off...and training camp hasn't opened! But that's the zone!

Originally posted by LVJay:

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:

Originally posted by LVJay:
Brock, Reid, Bethea and Spillman are the locks.

Other side of Brock - Cully, Cox or Cookie. We'll just have to see about Cully's status (recovery and/or league discipline?) throughout TC and preseason. I'm okay with Cox (he's solid), but if anyone (Cookie, Johnson, Acker or whomever) can unseat Cox, then that's saying a lot right there.

Morris is doing his part to play the slot... did all he was asked to do in OTAs and it seemed like he impressed the coaches. He's the fastest, not afraid to hit someone going full throttle and has serious closing speed. The rookie yr is out of the way, he's focused and determined to win that spot. Did I mention he has serious closing speed

Ward was a smart pick (put him anywhere / backs up any spot), but I don't think he'll be a full starter this year unless someone gets hurt or a couple of guys don't pan out and get cut/practice squad. Ward will be competing with Morris and (IF) he beats him out, then it will be Morris that will be the back up to Ward. IMO, we're good with either one playing the slot. Of all the rookie DBs, Ward (of course) is the lock even though he is still recovering from injury (unless coaches think otherwise).

If Johnson and Acker step up and makes it (seriously) difficult for coaches to decide which one hits the PS, then that's a plus and definitely helps solidify our secondary.

Dahl, Mc Cray Cray, Ventrone and DJ Campbell... we'll see but..............

I seriously disagree here. IMHO, there isn't anyone on the roster who's better, more tailor made, than Ward for the nickle spot - NOBODY! Granted, Ward will have to earn his way on the field, as it should be. But lets face it, he's a first rounder, so hell get EVERY chance to earn the starting nickleback job. I remember last season many Zoners were saying the same thing about one Eric Reid and doubting him, and I thought then, as I think of Ward now, that he'd be our opening day starter. Now, I like Morris and hope we find a way to keep him on the 53. He'd be a starter on most teams. But I fully expect that Ward WILL earn that nickle spot, and I may be among the few here who thinks that. So for me there isn't an "IF" about it. Jimmie Ward will be a full participant for the REAL training camp when real jobs are on the line. And the fact he was held out of the rookie & voluntary camp will have absolutely no baring whatsoever on his ability to earn the starting nickle/slot CB spot. The guy had a Jones fracture, that he didn't even know he had until he had the routine medical examination at the scouting combine. Hell, many people that get this injury don't even know they have this fracture, especially athletes. In fact, Ward said he didn't even feel it, nor did he have any symptoms from it. I think people are making WAY too much of Ward not being at camp.


IMHO

I was waiting for you to find my comment (possible Ward/Morris dilemma), then quote me on it... what took you so long?

First off, about Reid, some in here may have had doubts, but I think many of us (including you/me) had a good feeling he'd pan out... he really had no choice since Goldson split and his first round status came with a lot of expectations. He got a lot of praise by the staff since he was drafted and he stepped up big time (Goldson who?!) There wasn't much after Whitner (Dahl/Spillman) at safety so, Reid was next in line... he only had to prove it in TC/preseason and the job was all his.

Ward really doesn't have the pressure Reid had (filling in shoes in a hurry). We have Brock/Cully and Morris/Cox/Cook/Mc Cray Cray/two other rooks. But stiil, I hope he's all healed up and ready to go full throttle. I think he would go all out even without 100% recovery. He's determined to prove all doubters wrong and mostly prove to himself that he can excel in the next level.

HOWEVER, because of his injury (didn't do much in OTAs), I believe Morris is far ahead of him (physically). Not to mention, he's got a year of the playbook/system down. He knows that Ward is expected to start, but Morris' pride and focus motivates him to make that leap from yr one to yr two.

I hope Ward gives Morris hell at competition. One of them is going to start and the other will be back up... when the back up steps in (be that Ward or Morris) we won't miss a beat. That's going to be one of our strong points in the secondary (IMHO).

BTW, I love Ward's history/story (the underdog all his life)... I'm always down with underdogs and TBH, I want him to be the starter, I don't want our first rounder benchwarming (not at that position). Although, it is clear that Morris is ahead of him as far as the one yr in the system and because he also has a lot of talent and speed (he's no dump truck)

Ward can be a quick learner and he's got the skill set/determination... we'll all be rooting for him. But keep in mind, Morris isn't going to be a little bump that Ward can easily hurdle over. Competition will be good.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree

I don't disagree with your logic, It's quite sound. What I differ with you is on the outcome. IMHO, there's nobody on the roster better than Ward at the nickle CB spot, Morris included. IMHO, I think people are putting WAY too much stock in Ward missing rookie & mini camps. IMHO, people are getting way too caught up on the words (injury and surgery) rather than the realities of the condition itself (Jones fracture). Ward's "injury" wasn't even noticed by him until a routine pre-combine exam. Ward felt no symptoms, no pain, (both common for Jones fractures) and was actually fully capable of participating in the combine. In fact, at his pro-day just a month after the combine Ward showed no signs at all of an injury (running a 4.45 40, 38 vertical, and 101 broad jump). Hence, why he'll be fully ready for TC. For me, this was the NFL taking precautions. Ward had already put more than enough on film that not participating in the combine wouldn't have hurt his draft status, and it didn't. Sure, V. Fangio will make him earn it, as he should. So starting out in TC Morris/Cook/Cox will get the "start". (Unlike many, I don't get all lathered up on who "starts" during TC and pre-season games, especially before the first cut-downs.) But the minute this kid is put on the field it's gonna become quite clear who's better for the job. Do n't get me wrong. I'm not dismissing Morris. I like the kid, but he ain't no Jimmie Ward. And V. Fangio and JH aren't stubborn fools either. They are gonna field the best 11, rookie or not. I don't care how "ahead" Morris is over Ward, IMHO Morris is nowhere near the defender that Ward is, and that's why he'll get the start!!

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:

Originally posted by JLowd:
I'm a little surprised no one is giving Cook much of a chance. I could see him playing the nickel with all the good things we've heard from OTAs. I think Jimmie is gonna sit most of year 1, barring an injury.

I have Cook making the 53.

Me too but he's an outside press CB like Brock/Culliver and their backups should be Cook/Johnson. I expect we'll see much more press this year than in the past.

Thanks for making these points! When they picked Cook up it was written that Fangio/Donatel wanted to be able to play different styles when necessary and Cook helps them in this regard. All of a sudden folks are writing him off...and training camp hasn't opened! But that's the zone!

Not sure why anyone would write him off...all the reports have been great about Cook and they have been working on his one glaring weakness...tracking the ball as it arrives, which, ironically, is every DB's challenge (esp. ours in the playoffs).

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:

Originally posted by JLowd:

I'm a little surprised no one is giving Cook much of a chance. I could see him playing the nickel with all the good things we've heard from OTAs. I think Jimmie is gonna sit most of year 1, barring an injury.

I have Cook making the 53.

Me too but he's an outside press CB like Brock/Culliver and their backups should be Cook/Johnson. I expect we'll see much more press this year than in the past.

Thanks for making these points! When they picked Cook up it was written that Fangio/Donatel wanted to be able to play different styles when necessary and Cook helps them in this regard. All of a sudden folks are writing him off...and training camp hasn't opened! But that's the zone!

Minnesota had a weak defensive line last year, besides Jared Allen, there was no consistent pass rush from any of the other D-Lineman, their linebackers were slow, and that soft secondary couldn't shut down many passing attacks ... a change of scenario will help Cook get back on track, he has talent, he wasn't a 2nd round pick for nothing ...hopefully Donatell gets him right

Originally posted by NeeJ49er:
Minnesota had a weak defensive line last year, besides Jared Allen, there was no consistent pass rush from any of the other D-Lineman, their linebackers were slow, and that soft secondary couldn't shut down many passing attacks ... a change of scenario will help Cook get back on track, he has talent, he wasn't a 2nd round pick for nothing ...hopefully Donatell gets him right

Another good point! Just as Rogers seemed to blossom with the 9ers, I hope Cook does as well.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by NeeJ49er:

Minnesota had a weak defensive line last year, besides Jared Allen, there was no consistent pass rush from any of the other D-Lineman, their linebackers were slow, and that soft secondary couldn't shut down many passing attacks ... a change of scenario will help Cook get back on track, he has talent, he wasn't a 2nd round pick for nothing ...hopefully Donatell gets him right

Another good point! Just as Rogers seemed to blossom with the 9ers, I hope Cook does as well.

I'm pretty sure our front 7 will make Cook a better CB

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by NeeJ49er:
Minnesota had a weak defensive line last year, besides Jared Allen, there was no consistent pass rush from any of the other D-Lineman, their linebackers were slow, and that soft secondary couldn't shut down many passing attacks ... a change of scenario will help Cook get back on track, he has talent, he wasn't a 2nd round pick for nothing ...hopefully Donatell gets him right

Another good point! Just as Rogers seemed to blossom with the 9ers, I hope Cook does as well.

When I was watching his "low"-lights in Minnesota, what I noticed is that he was matched up against the best WR's and was always in their hip pocket with ZERO safety help. Some of those catches over him were pretty amazing as well (just great plays). The one thing that stood out to me was his timing on making a play on the ball. One technique Donatell teaches here is how to read the body language of the WR and when to get your hands in there last second. You've probably seen it yourself...if our CB is trailing, the ball is coming in and the CB has his back to the QB and just as the WR motions to make the catch, our DB will swipe down into the mid section (high to low). This does two things...the high part possibly is enough to contest the ball and the swipe down allows them leverage in case the catch is made to plant and rip the ball out (we see this a lot). I have little doubt, Cook would get much better range and help from the S's over the top and if he can get this technique down, with his press abilities, size, speed and experience, he could end up being a gem for us and genuinely challenge Culliver and Johnson for the #2 CB position.

Originally posted by NCommand:
When I was watching his "low"-lights in Minnesota, what I noticed is that he was matched up against the best WR's and was always in their hip pocket with ZERO safety help. Some of those catches over him were pretty amazing as well (just great plays). The one thing that stood out to me was his timing on making a play on the ball. One technique Donatell teaches here is how to read the body language of the WR and when to get your hands in there last second. You've probably seen it yourself...if our CB is trailing, the ball is coming in and the CB has his back to the QB and just as the WR motions to make the catch, our DB will swipe down into the mid section (high to low). This does two things...the high part possibly is enough to contest the ball and the swipe down allows them leverage in case the catch is made to plant and rip the ball out (we see this a lot). I have little doubt, Cook would get much better range and help from the S's over the top and if he can get this technique down, with his press abilities, size, speed and experience, he could end up being a gem for us and genuinely challenge Culliver and Johnson for the #2 CB position.

This is a key point to playing the position that also drives me crazy during games! LOL! I watch young DBs with their backs to the QB not see the WR raise his hands to receive the ball...how can they not see that? You don't have to face guard for a penalty but if you have a hand up and ready to hit the ball you at least give yourself a shot! I never played the position so perhaps it's not as easy as it seems? If Cook can challenge for a starting position I will be greatly relieved given Culliver's off season!

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by NCommand:
When I was watching his "low"-lights in Minnesota, what I noticed is that he was matched up against the best WR's and was always in their hip pocket with ZERO safety help. Some of those catches over him were pretty amazing as well (just great plays). The one thing that stood out to me was his timing on making a play on the ball. One technique Donatell teaches here is how to read the body language of the WR and when to get your hands in there last second. You've probably seen it yourself...if our CB is trailing, the ball is coming in and the CB has his back to the QB and just as the WR motions to make the catch, our DB will swipe down into the mid section (high to low). This does two things...the high part possibly is enough to contest the ball and the swipe down allows them leverage in case the catch is made to plant and rip the ball out (we see this a lot). I have little doubt, Cook would get much better range and help from the S's over the top and if he can get this technique down, with his press abilities, size, speed and experience, he could end up being a gem for us and genuinely challenge Culliver and Johnson for the #2 CB position.

This is a key point to playing the position that also drives me crazy during games! LOL! I watch young DBs with their backs to the QB not see the WR raise his hands to receive the ball...how can they not see that? You don't have to face guard for a penalty but if you have a hand up and ready to hit the ball you at least give yourself a shot! I never played the position so perhaps it's not as easy as it seems? If Cook can challenge for a starting position I will be greatly relieved given Culliver's off season!

Our CB's were often times in trail-mode which is remarkable given the off coverage we played. I have a feeling things will be different this year...much more HARD press at the LOS and with the speed and recover ability we now have on the edges and esp. in the slot/nickle, we shouldn't be in trail-mode as much and can keep everything in front of us playing down hill with an eye on the receiver AND the QB (ala Brock in the Pic @ the Stick).

I wouldn't worry too much about Culliver...he's had a full 12 months to recover now and he was actually hurt in TC so I would imagine they'll bring him along slowly to play it very safe and get his "football" legs back under him (although I'm sure he's been in great cardio shape). But like you said, Cook's looking better and better as is Johnson as well. With Ward and Morris in the nickle/slot, I wonder if Cox could also play on the outside if needed. Acker?

Originally posted by NCommand:
Our CB's were often times in trail-mode which is remarkable given the off coverage we played. I have a feeling things will be different this year...much more HARD press at the LOS and with the speed and recover ability we now have on the edges and esp. in the slot/nickle, we shouldn't be in trail-mode as much and can keep everything in front of us playing down hill with an eye on the receiver AND the QB (ala Brock in the Pic @ the Stick).

I wouldn't worry too much about Culliver...he's had a full 12 months to recover now and he was actually hurt in TC so I would imagine they'll bring him along slowly to play it very safe and get his "football" legs back under him (although I'm sure he's been in great cardio shape). But like you said, Cook's looking better and better as is Johnson as well. With Ward and Morris in the nickle/slot, I wonder if Cox could also play on the outside if needed. Acker?

Not so much worried about Culliver's recovery as his knotheadedness! -Once guys start doing dumb things it makes me nervous. I'm hoping Lemonier can replace Aldon is he's suspended or otherwise incapacitated.

If they play press with Reid playing center field it will be fun to watch. They have enough speed to make a great backfield if the young guys can contribute. I hope Ward gets on the field as nickle so that we can see his speed/instintiveness with Reid.