Game 2 Assessment:

Typically I don't listen to you guys rant after losses, but i admit this one made me feel a little better.

Originally posted by maltz88:

Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
Sherman is slow, lanky, and doesn't have great change of direction or very fluid hips. He has pretty good ball skills though.

Kam Chancellor is just a big ass slow safety than can hit pretty good. He doesn't have very good coverage or ball skills.

Walter Thurmond is their most talented corner. Yup that's right. He is way more fluid than these other guys and has pretty good ball skills. However, Sherman and Browner excel more in that defense because of their size and length. It helps to be big with long arms when your defensive tactic is to reach out and grab and hold jerseys.

Earl Thomas- The only true stud (within the rules) in their secondary. A ball hawk.

I think you're partially right. Apart from the not so subtle biased that wants to minimize all of their skill and label all but Thomas as a mugger, I agree with a lot of what you're saying.

I think a big part of what you're overlooking though is intelligence. Watching Sherman in particular. He gets beat all the time. He is not fluid, has slow hips, and is not quick. He is however nearly a genius at route recognition, and understanding the game and the other teams concepts, route trees, etc. If you watch him get beat, he will often break to a spot to recover before the WR does. This is probably the best part of his game. Talent wise, as I said he's not quick, but he is a long strider, and has enough ability to make up ground, and can make very good plays on the ball in the air as well (his pick when covering Davis he showed both).

Thurmond does probably have the best skill set of a traditional corner, which is why he was starting in front of Sherman 2 years ago until he was injured. He is however a better fit in this defense in the nickel than he is playing man press like they ask Sherman and Browner to do.

People can continue to try to minimize it, but the bottom line is they are a very well coached, intelligent, physical, sure tackling secondary as a whole, without a lot of weaknesses.

I agree with you for the most part. They are intelligent, but you aren't that good strictly because of awareness and football intelligence. The main reason they are so good is because they are coached up on how to cheat and get away with it. They are essentially playing like the 1970's Raiders and Steelers secondaries, where anything goes.

If Sherman and co were forced to play within the rules, they'd be backup corners like they were projected to be coming out of college.Sherman would be getting beat a heck of a lot without all of the illegal contact that he does. Same with Browner.

There is no way Sherman goes from being a mediocre at best corner in college to an all star at the next level. I remember watching him at the senior bowl and thinking that this guy really is no good. He was slow and was getting beat like a drum and often.

Their secondary consists of two fifth round picks and one undrafted free agent and they become elite within a year? Now how does that work? Outside of Earl Thomas like I said, they are not all that talented. Fantastic at getting away with illegal play, but not very talented natural corners at all.

Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
The Hawks have one of the best secondaries you have ever seen? f**k no. The only guy in their secondary that has true talent is Earl Thomas. All the other guys are mediocre to solid players, but they aren't elite. What they are is elite at holding and getting away with it.

I went back and watched the coaches film of our game and their game against the panthers. Richard Sherman and Walter Thurmond are great at tugging on the jersey to bring the wideout closer to them when he makes his break. They're also great at grabbing and holding the guys jersey up top when pressing at the line of scrimmage. Props to them for cheating so blatantly and getting away with it, but the reality is that their talent level is vastly overrated.

Sherman is slow, lanky, and doesn't have great change of direction or very fluid hips. He has pretty good ball skills though.

Brandon Browner is another guy that is huge for a corner and thus his fluidity and change of direction is poor. Also lacks speed. Another guy that is great at mugging wideouts though.

Kam Chancellor is just a big ass slow safety than can hit pretty good. He doesn't have very good coverage or ball skills.

Walter Thurmond is their most talented corner. Yup that's right. He is way more fluid than these other guys and has pretty good ball skills. However, Sherman and Browner excel more in that defense because of their size and length. It helps to be big with long arms when your defensive tactic is to reach out and grab and hold jerseys.

Earl Thomas- The only true stud (within the rules) in their secondary. A ball hawk.

In a defensive secondary that concentrates on mugging wide receivers as opposed to legally covering them, basically all you have to do is go out and select guys in later rounds that are big and not as talented. You don't need to worry about drafting defensive backs early because they don't need to be very good cover guys. Wait a second guys! That's exactly what Seattle has done! Genius! You have an undrafted free agent and a fifth round pick starting at your corner positions and another fifth round pick at the safety position. All of whom became all stars within a year in the pros. That's amazaaaaziiiing!

Pretty spot on. No idea why the NFL gives Seattle a 15 yard bump cushion. They just hang onto receivers for 15 yards. But they have been doing it ever since cheating Pete showed up and there doesn't appear to be any enforcement, might as well get used to it.

Originally posted by 9erReign:

Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
The Hawks have one of the best secondaries you have ever seen? f**k no. The only guy in their secondary that has true talent is Earl Thomas. All the other guys are mediocre to solid players, but they aren't elite. What they are is elite at holding and getting away with it.

I went back and watched the coaches film of our game and their game against the panthers. Richard Sherman and Walter Thurmond are great at tugging on the jersey to bring the wideout closer to them when he makes his break. They're also great at grabbing and holding the guys jersey up top when pressing at the line of scrimmage. Props to them for cheating so blatantly and getting away with it, but the reality is that their talent level is vastly overrated.

Sherman is slow, lanky, and doesn't have great change of direction or very fluid hips. He has pretty good ball skills though.

Brandon Browner is another guy that is huge for a corner and thus his fluidity and change of direction is poor. Also lacks speed. Another guy that is great at mugging wideouts though.

Kam Chancellor is just a big ass slow safety than can hit pretty good. He doesn't have very good coverage or ball skills.

Walter Thurmond is their most talented corner. Yup that's right. He is way more fluid than these other guys and has pretty good ball skills. However, Sherman and Browner excel more in that defense because of their size and length. It helps to be big with long arms when your defensive tactic is to reach out and grab and hold jerseys.

Earl Thomas- The only true stud (within the rules) in their secondary. A ball hawk.

In a defensive secondary that concentrates on mugging wide receivers as opposed to legally covering them, basically all you have to do is go out and select guys in later rounds that are big and not as talented. You don't need to worry about drafting defensive backs early because they don't need to be very good cover guys. Wait a second guys! That's exactly what Seattle has done! Genius! You have an undrafted free agent and a fifth round pick starting at your corner positions and another fifth round pick at the safety position. All of whom became all stars within a year in the pros. That's amazaaaaziiiing!

Pretty spot on. No idea why the NFL gives Seattle a 15 yard bump cushion. They just hang onto receivers for 15 yards. But they have been doing it ever since cheating Pete showed up and there doesn't appear to be any enforcement, might as well get used to it.

Yup it's unfortunate and it baffles me how they can do it, but other teams can't. It seems like every where Pete the cheat has been there has been some kind of form of cheating going on.

Originally posted by Diaperfan:
Anyone feel like the offensive play calling was oversimplified because Haroman and company wanted to keep the offense hidden for later in the season? I realize the crowd noise was the primary reason for what looked like vanilla play calling, but it was almost comical in the second half.

I think they tried to keep it simple because the crowd noise prevents them from running their normal offense which requires a lot of communication with the QB to the receivers and his blockers. In my opinion it was the lack of execution that failed the team more than the playcalling. Kaepernick was inaccurate all night long, even on easy passes... the first series showed that when he had Miller for a first down but he threw the ball at his knees/ankles and the Seahawks were able to recover and get to him before he could get up and get a 1st down. All three of his interceptions were not good passes and if they were closer to perfect passes they would have been completions or at worst a dropped pass. On top of that the offensive line apparently struggled a lot without being able to communicate amongst each other

Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
The Hawks have one of the best secondaries you have ever seen? f**k no. The only guy in their secondary that has true talent is Earl Thomas. All the other guys are mediocre to solid players, but they aren't elite. What they are is elite at holding and getting away with it.

I went back and watched the coaches film of our game and their game against the panthers. Richard Sherman and Walter Thurmond are great at tugging on the jersey to bring the wideout closer to them when he makes his break. They're also great at grabbing and holding the guys jersey up top when pressing at the line of scrimmage. Props to them for cheating so blatantly and getting away with it, but the reality is that their talent level is vastly overrated.

Sherman is slow, lanky, and doesn't have great change of direction or very fluid hips. He has pretty good ball skills though.

Brandon Browner is another guy that is huge for a corner and thus his fluidity and change of direction is poor. Also lacks speed. Another guy that is great at mugging wideouts though.

Kam Chancellor is just a big ass slow safety than can hit pretty good. He doesn't have very good coverage or ball skills.

Walter Thurmond is their most talented corner. Yup that's right. He is way more fluid than these other guys and has pretty good ball skills. However, Sherman and Browner excel more in that defense because of their size and length. It helps to be big with long arms when your defensive tactic is to reach out and grab and hold jerseys.

Earl Thomas- The only true stud (within the rules) in their secondary. A ball hawk.

In a defensive secondary that concentrates on mugging wide receivers as opposed to legally covering them, basically all you have to do is go out and select guys in later rounds that are big and not as talented. You don't need to worry about drafting defensive backs early because they don't need to be very good cover guys. Wait a second guys! That's exactly what Seattle has done! Genius! You have an undrafted free agent and a fifth round pick starting at your corner positions and another fifth round pick at the safety position. All of whom became all stars within a year in the pros. That's amazaaaaziiiing!

You have access to the All-22 camera? Or is this some other film you're referring to?

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
The Hawks have one of the best secondaries you have ever seen? f**k no. The only guy in their secondary that has true talent is Earl Thomas. All the other guys are mediocre to solid players, but they aren't elite. What they are is elite at holding and getting away with it.

I went back and watched the coaches film of our game and their game against the panthers. Richard Sherman and Walter Thurmond are great at tugging on the jersey to bring the wideout closer to them when he makes his break. They're also great at grabbing and holding the guys jersey up top when pressing at the line of scrimmage. Props to them for cheating so blatantly and getting away with it, but the reality is that their talent level is vastly overrated.

Sherman is slow, lanky, and doesn't have great change of direction or very fluid hips. He has pretty good ball skills though.

Brandon Browner is another guy that is huge for a corner and thus his fluidity and change of direction is poor. Also lacks speed. Another guy that is great at mugging wideouts though.

Kam Chancellor is just a big ass slow safety than can hit pretty good. He doesn't have very good coverage or ball skills.

Walter Thurmond is their most talented corner. Yup that's right. He is way more fluid than these other guys and has pretty good ball skills. However, Sherman and Browner excel more in that defense because of their size and length. It helps to be big with long arms when your defensive tactic is to reach out and grab and hold jerseys.

Earl Thomas- The only true stud (within the rules) in their secondary. A ball hawk.

In a defensive secondary that concentrates on mugging wide receivers as opposed to legally covering them, basically all you have to do is go out and select guys in later rounds that are big and not as talented. You don't need to worry about drafting defensive backs early because they don't need to be very good cover guys. Wait a second guys! That's exactly what Seattle has done! Genius! You have an undrafted free agent and a fifth round pick starting at your corner positions and another fifth round pick at the safety position. All of whom became all stars within a year in the pros. That's amazaaaaziiiing!

You have access to the All-22 camera? Or is this some other film you're referring to?

Yeah All-22 and end-zone that comes with the NFL game rewind.

Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
Yeah All-22 and end-zone that comes with the NFL game rewind.

You may have just sold me on NFL Game Rewind. Thanks.

Originally posted by 9erReign:

Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
The Hawks have one of the best secondaries you have ever seen? f**k no. The only guy in their secondary that has true talent is Earl Thomas. All the other guys are mediocre to solid players, but they aren't elite. What they are is elite at holding and getting away with it.

I went back and watched the coaches film of our game and their game against the panthers. Richard Sherman and Walter Thurmond are great at tugging on the jersey to bring the wideout closer to them when he makes his break. They're also great at grabbing and holding the guys jersey up top when pressing at the line of scrimmage. Props to them for cheating so blatantly and getting away with it, but the reality is that their talent level is vastly overrated.

Sherman is slow, lanky, and doesn't have great change of direction or very fluid hips. He has pretty good ball skills though.

Brandon Browner is another guy that is huge for a corner and thus his fluidity and change of direction is poor. Also lacks speed. Another guy that is great at mugging wideouts though.

Kam Chancellor is just a big ass slow safety than can hit pretty good. He doesn't have very good coverage or ball skills.

Walter Thurmond is their most talented corner. Yup that's right. He is way more fluid than these other guys and has pretty good ball skills. However, Sherman and Browner excel more in that defense because of their size and length. It helps to be big with long arms when your defensive tactic is to reach out and grab and hold jerseys.

Earl Thomas- The only true stud (within the rules) in their secondary. A ball hawk.

In a defensive secondary that concentrates on mugging wide receivers as opposed to legally covering them, basically all you have to do is go out and select guys in later rounds that are big and not as talented. You don't need to worry about drafting defensive backs early because they don't need to be very good cover guys. Wait a second guys! That's exactly what Seattle has done! Genius! You have an undrafted free agent and a fifth round pick starting at your corner positions and another fifth round pick at the safety position. All of whom became all stars within a year in the pros. That's amazaaaaziiiing!

Pretty spot on. No idea why the NFL gives Seattle a 15 yard bump cushion. They just hang onto receivers for 15 yards. But they have been doing it ever since cheating Pete showed up and there doesn't appear to be any enforcement, might as well get used to it.

Seattle is getting the same treatment that the NFL gave to the Packers for so many years. The Packers get to do the same thing, they get to play physical and engage with the receivers well beyond the 5-yard window. Watch a Packers game, their guys run down the field shoving the WRs just over and over with one arm to disrupt their routes. GB is just like Seattle in the DB department, even worse in my opinion. Three of their starters in the secondary are undrafted yeah.. OK!!! The only one drafted is their FS Burnett and he is a 3rd rounder. Every week they should be giving up 400-500 yards in the air with 3 undrafted players. I know the 49ers sure wouldn't get away with having 3 undrafted guys in their secondary.

I believe someone already said it in this thread, but this is the philosophy that both the Packers and Seahawks employ in the secondary:

The NFL will not call every penalty in order to keep a nice flow to the game and keep the game under 3-3.5 hours. With the approach of grabbing and holding you'll more than likely get called for holding instead of PI so when they do flag you, your team will only lose 5 yards, no big deal. So, to keep the flow of the game going the officials will start to ignore most of the penalties and then eventually they ignore nearly all of those penalties. Which is where we are with both Seattle and the Packers, but Seattle is smarter about it since they got 2 big guys to cheat instead of the smaller guys GB has

Originally posted by threelittlebirds:

Originally posted by 9erReign:

Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
The Hawks have one of the best secondaries you have ever seen? f**k no. The only guy in their secondary that has true talent is Earl Thomas. All the other guys are mediocre to solid players, but they aren't elite. What they are is elite at holding and getting away with it.

I went back and watched the coaches film of our game and their game against the panthers. Richard Sherman and Walter Thurmond are great at tugging on the jersey to bring the wideout closer to them when he makes his break. They're also great at grabbing and holding the guys jersey up top when pressing at the line of scrimmage. Props to them for cheating so blatantly and getting away with it, but the reality is that their talent level is vastly overrated.

Sherman is slow, lanky, and doesn't have great change of direction or very fluid hips. He has pretty good ball skills though.

Brandon Browner is another guy that is huge for a corner and thus his fluidity and change of direction is poor. Also lacks speed. Another guy that is great at mugging wideouts though.

Kam Chancellor is just a big ass slow safety than can hit pretty good. He doesn't have very good coverage or ball skills.

Walter Thurmond is their most talented corner. Yup that's right. He is way more fluid than these other guys and has pretty good ball skills. However, Sherman and Browner excel more in that defense because of their size and length. It helps to be big with long arms when your defensive tactic is to reach out and grab and hold jerseys.

Earl Thomas- The only true stud (within the rules) in their secondary. A ball hawk.

In a defensive secondary that concentrates on mugging wide receivers as opposed to legally covering them, basically all you have to do is go out and select guys in later rounds that are big and not as talented. You don't need to worry about drafting defensive backs early because they don't need to be very good cover guys. Wait a second guys! That's exactly what Seattle has done! Genius! You have an undrafted free agent and a fifth round pick starting at your corner positions and another fifth round pick at the safety position. All of whom became all stars within a year in the pros. That's amazaaaaziiiing!

Pretty spot on. No idea why the NFL gives Seattle a 15 yard bump cushion. They just hang onto receivers for 15 yards. But they have been doing it ever since cheating Pete showed up and there doesn't appear to be any enforcement, might as well get used to it.

Seattle is getting the same treatment that the NFL gave to the Packers for so many years. The Packers get to do the same thing, they get to play physical and engage with the receivers well beyond the 5-yard window. Watch a Packers game, their guys run down the field shoving the WRs just over and over with one arm to disrupt their routes. GB is just like Seattle in the DB department, even worse in my opinion. Three of their starters in the secondary are undrafted yeah.. OK!!! The only one drafted is their FS Burnett and he is a 3rd rounder. Every week they should be giving up 400-500 yards in the air with 3 undrafted players. I know the 49ers sure wouldn't get away with having 3 undrafted guys in their secondary.

I believe someone already said it in this thread, but this is the philosophy that both the Packers and Seahawks employ in the secondary:

The NFL will not call every penalty in order to keep a nice flow to the game and keep the game under 3-3.5 hours. With the approach of grabbing and holding you'll more than likely get called for holding instead of PI so when they do flag you, your team will only lose 5 yards, no big deal. So, to keep the flow of the game going the officials will start to ignore most of the penalties and then eventually they ignore nearly all of those penalties. Which is where we are with both Seattle and the Packers, but Seattle is smarter about it since they got 2 big guys to cheat instead of the smaller guys GB has

That's exactly what I think as well. That's a good explanation for why they get away with it. Maybe we should try to adopt the same strategy and then after a while the refs will stop calling flags on us.

Of course they get coached to cheat and get away with it, no surprises from Pete the Cheat Carroll.

Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
The Hawks have one of the best secondaries you have ever seen? f**k no. The only guy in their secondary that has true talent is Earl Thomas. All the other guys are mediocre to solid players, but they aren't elite. What they are is elite at holding and getting away with it.

I went back and watched the coaches film of our game and their game against the panthers. Richard Sherman and Walter Thurmond are great at tugging on the jersey to bring the wideout closer to them when he makes his break. They're also great at grabbing and holding the guys jersey up top when pressing at the line of scrimmage. Props to them for cheating so blatantly and getting away with it, but the reality is that their talent level is vastly overrated.

Sherman is slow, lanky, and doesn't have great change of direction or very fluid hips. He has pretty good ball skills though.

Brandon Browner is another guy that is huge for a corner and thus his fluidity and change of direction is poor. Also lacks speed. Another guy that is great at mugging wideouts though.

Kam Chancellor is just a big ass slow safety than can hit pretty good. He doesn't have very good coverage or ball skills.

Walter Thurmond is their most talented corner. Yup that's right. He is way more fluid than these other guys and has pretty good ball skills. However, Sherman and Browner excel more in that defense because of their size and length. It helps to be big with long arms when your defensive tactic is to reach out and grab and hold jerseys.

Earl Thomas- The only true stud (within the rules) in their secondary. A ball hawk.

In a defensive secondary that concentrates on mugging wide receivers as opposed to legally covering them, basically all you have to do is go out and select guys in later rounds that are big and not as talented. You don't need to worry about drafting defensive backs early because they don't need to be very good cover guys. Wait a second guys! That's exactly what Seattle has done! Genius! You have an undrafted free agent and a fifth round pick starting at your corner positions and another fifth round pick at the safety position. All of whom became all stars within a year in the pros. That's amazaaaaziiiing!

Seattle has built their defense the right way ... get after the QB and shut down the run with 7-8 man fronts, play one deep safety - Thomas is a stud - and hold receivers at the line to disrupt the timing. This is exactly how GB used to play the 49ers in the mid-90s ... our W/C offense never had good timing against them because the corners would basically hold receivers at the line (and beyond). This same defense was employed by NE against the Rams in the 2001 SB. Holding receivers on every play, disrupt the timing, and blitz (or disguise the rush).

If you want to know how to beat this defense, re-watch Miami against Chicago in 1985. Marino spread out the field, forcing the Bears out of the 46 package. You have to spread Seattle out ... force them into zones and hit the short and intermediate routes underneath and in the middle of the field. Don't let them substitute their DL.

Here's a good breakdown-

http://www.ninersnation.com/2013/9/18/4746032/deep-in-the-game-full-22-footage-breaking-down-the-beatdown-in-seattle

Originally posted by threelittlebirds:
The NFL will not call every penalty in order to keep a nice flow to the game and keep the game under 3-3.5 hours. With the approach of grabbing and holding you'll more than likely get called for holding instead of PI so when they do flag you, your team will only lose 5 yards, no big deal. So, to keep the flow of the game going the officials will start to ignore most of the penalties and then eventually they ignore nearly all of those penalties. Which is where we are with both Seattle and the Packers, but Seattle is smarter about it since they got 2 big guys to cheat instead of the smaller guys GB has

Nailed it...this is the "culture" I was referring too. Like the Ravens, they created a culture whereby it's expected that this is how they play and as a result, typiclly get the benefit of the doubt with a few "holding" calls thrown in for good measure. The only issue I have with this in general is when the OTHER team is unable to play within the context of the same game and instead, gets called for P.I.'s.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by threelittlebirds:
The NFL will not call every penalty in order to keep a nice flow to the game and keep the game under 3-3.5 hours. With the approach of grabbing and holding you'll more than likely get called for holding instead of PI so when they do flag you, your team will only lose 5 yards, no big deal. So, to keep the flow of the game going the officials will start to ignore most of the penalties and then eventually they ignore nearly all of those penalties. Which is where we are with both Seattle and the Packers, but Seattle is smarter about it since they got 2 big guys to cheat instead of the smaller guys GB has

Nailed it...this is the "culture" I was referring too. Like the Ravens, they created a culture whereby it's expected that this is how they play and as a result, typiclly get the benefit of the doubt with a few "holding" calls thrown in for good measure. The only issue I have with this in general is when the OTHER team is unable to play within the context of the same game and instead, gets called for P.I.'s.

You seriously don't have a problem with a team actively employing the tactic of "well the NFL won't call a penalty on every single play so we will commit a penalty every single play and in the end it will benefit us?" I think it is BS. Start enforcing all penalties, make all the teams play within the rules. There is no point in having rules if you don't enforce them.