Who's better? Willis or Aldon

Originally posted by GNielsen:

Originally posted by oregonniner:
Willis is the leader of our defense. Aldon is still too immature for that responsibility. If you take that out of the equation, then you can make the case for Aldon Smith, Justin Smith, Bowman and Willis. But like Ray Lewis was the most valuable player on the Ravens defense, so too is Patrick Willis for us.

I agree with this. Aldon Smith, as the sack leader, gets a lot of glory and he deserves it. Nobody has ever had as many sacks in his first two years. But, Willis is the prime engine that makes this defense go both in spirit and in play. He and Bowman shut down the run and the short passing game which gives Aldon Smith the opportunity to sack that QB. And, it's got a lot to do with scheme. Willis would have lots of sacks if Fangio was shooting him through the gaps more often. Almost every time they have him do that, which isn't very often, he blows up whatever is happening.

We have three first team All Pro linebackers and Justin Smith.
They are the core of our defense.
They make each other better.

Originally posted by buck:
We have three first team All Pro linebackers and Justin Smith. They make each other better.

That pretty much sums it up.

However, I might add that Willis was even better or shined more with less talent around him.

Originally posted by MiamiNiner: who cares?

Originally posted by LoneWolf:
They also try to credit that most of his sacks came late in games when opponants were deperate in passing situations. Irony in it all is almost half of his sacks came from behind raymac not Smith. I think in the reaction video Sapp explained it really well where Watt is a great pass rusher due to strength Miller is a great pass rusher due to speed and Smith is the perfect combo of both.

Below is a post from a guy i've been arguing with in how he thinks Aldon shouldn't be in the top 10 let alone the top 75. I mentioned the torn labrum and he said this:

"Honestly, before I saw JJ do what he did with one arm...if it did he must just be less of a player than JJ. The point is that JJ found a way to do his thing & they kept using him the same way all season even after the elbow went south. Aldon just...disappeared......Both lost the use of an arm. One remained a force from a point that isn't supposed to be a position of def pressure while the other essentially disappeared. One belongs in the top 10 the other doesn't. It's just that simple. I don't watch a lot of 9er ball but the national games I do get to see & Aldon, other than that crazy Monday nighter against the Bears, was not even on the radar as far as plays consistently made for all the discussion about him during the games. So not finishing is okay in the top 10 for the NFL? Oh, okay. If that's the case I can put another 9 OLB into this category as well...how about Clay Matthews? He was more consistent all season & he didn't have anybody helping him with stats. Imagine what he could have done next to Justin with Navarro & Pat behind him. Just like several of the 9ers who made this list, kid has crazy potential but this list isn't supposed to be about potential. It's supposed to be about consistent production."


What I don't get with these arguments is that in the ultimate team sport you need to be a team player and help each other in some way. To play well selflessly and one as a team is the only way to reach the SB. But when we rank players individually in the Top 100 it is suddenly a knock against a player that he has help from those around him or that he plays on a stacked team. The players who are then highly touted are the ones who do well on bad teams, who have no help, and basically carry the team alone like Luck and RG3. Is it really Aldon's fault that he is on a talented team? What is he supposed to do suddenly focus on his own stats? It's the same kind of argument against Montana and currently Kaep.

Originally posted by leon49:
Below is a post from a guy i've been arguing with in how he thinks Aldon shouldn't be in the top 10 let alone the top 75. I mentioned the torn labrum and he said this:

"Honestly, before I saw JJ do what he did with one arm...if it did he must just be less of a player than JJ. The point is that JJ found a way to do his thing & they kept using him the same way all season even after the elbow went south. Aldon just...disappeared......Both lost the use of an arm. One remained a force from a point that isn't supposed to be a position of def pressure while the other essentially disappeared. One belongs in the top 10 the other doesn't. It's just that simple. I don't watch a lot of 9er ball but the national games I do get to see & Aldon, other than that crazy Monday nighter against the Bears, was not even on the radar as far as plays consistently made for all the discussion about him during the games. So not finishing is okay in the top 10 for the NFL? Oh, okay. If that's the case I can put another 9 OLB into this category as well...how about Clay Matthews? He was more consistent all season & he didn't have anybody helping him with stats. Imagine what he could have done next to Justin with Navarro & Pat behind him. Just like several of the 9ers who made this list, kid has crazy potential but this list isn't supposed to be about potential. It's supposed to be about consistent production."


What I don't get with these arguments is that in the ultimate team sport you need to be a team player and help each other in some way. To play well selflessly and one as a team is the only way to reach the SB. But when we rank players individually in the Top 100 it is suddenly a knock against a player that he has help from those around him or that he plays on a stacked team. The players who are then highly touted are the ones who do well on bad teams, who have no help, and basically carry the team alone like Luck and RG3. Is it really Aldon's fault that he is on a talented team? What is he supposed to do suddenly focus on his own stats? It's the same kind of argument against Montana and currently Kaep.

Not a big deal really.

Every individual is going to have his own list of top players and his opinion about lists compiled by others.

The thing that is unique about the Top 100 NFL players list is that it is compiled by polling actual players in the league, not fans, not writers, not pundits.

That does not mean that list is devoid of subjectivity, but I tend to think that NFL players know more about who is a good player than I do.

Originally posted by buck:
Not a big deal really.

Every individual is going to have his own list of top players and his opinion about lists compiled by others.

The thing that is unique about the Top 100 NFL players list is that it is compiled by polling actual players in the league, not fans, not writers, not pundits.

That does not mean that list is devoid of subjectivity, but I tend to think that NFL players know more about who is a good player than I do.

True. They really do give each other credit a lot, though I am wondering how much bias they could have when voting. For instance, putting Richard Sherman at #50. I don't really like the guy myself, but I am wondering if he was voted that low because he's not as good as everyone thinks he is or is it because A LOT of other players maybe don't like the guy?

Originally posted by leon49:
True. They really do give each other credit a lot, though I am wondering how much bias they could have when voting. For instance, putting Richard Sherman at #50. I don't really like the guy myself, but I am wondering if he was voted that low because he's not as good as everyone thinks he is or is it because A LOT of other players maybe don't like the guy?

I think its a mix of players not liking his attitude and not appreciating his illegal game play. Which also happens to be the biggest thing that seperates him from being the best Corner in the league, Revis and other top shelf corners don't rely on tons of illegal contact during game play to get there interceptions, broken up passes etc, where without pushing the legal limits Sherman would not be as good as people like to believe.

Originally posted by leon49:

Originally posted by LoneWolf:
They also try to credit that most of his sacks came late in games when opponants were deperate in passing situations. Irony in it all is almost half of his sacks came from behind raymac not Smith. I think in the reaction video Sapp explained it really well where Watt is a great pass rusher due to strength Miller is a great pass rusher due to speed and Smith is the perfect combo of both.

Below is a post from a guy i've been arguing with in how he thinks Aldon shouldn't be in the top 10 let alone the top 75. I mentioned the torn labrum and he said this:

"Honestly, before I saw JJ do what he did with one arm...if it did he must just be less of a player than JJ. The point is that JJ found a way to do his thing & they kept using him the same way all season even after the elbow went south. Aldon just...disappeared......Both lost the use of an arm. One remained a force from a point that isn't supposed to be a position of def pressure while the other essentially disappeared. One belongs in the top 10 the other doesn't. It's just that simple. I don't watch a lot of 9er ball but the national games I do get to see & Aldon, other than that crazy Monday nighter against the Bears, was not even on the radar as far as plays consistently made for all the discussion about him during the games. So not finishing is okay in the top 10 for the NFL? Oh, okay. If that's the case I can put another 9 OLB into this category as well...how about Clay Matthews? He was more consistent all season & he didn't have anybody helping him with stats. Imagine what he could have done next to Justin with Navarro & Pat behind him. Just like several of the 9ers who made this list, kid has crazy potential but this list isn't supposed to be about potential. It's supposed to be about consistent production."


What I don't get with these arguments is that in the ultimate team sport you need to be a team player and help each other in some way. To play well selflessly and one as a team is the only way to reach the SB. But when we rank players individually in the Top 100 it is suddenly a knock against a player that he has help from those around him or that he plays on a stacked team. The players who are then highly touted are the ones who do well on bad teams, who have no help, and basically carry the team alone like Luck and RG3. Is it really Aldon's fault that he is on a talented team? What is he supposed to do suddenly focus on his own stats? It's the same kind of argument against Montana and currently Kaep.

The idea that Aldon disappeared is the greatest myth of the year.

Getting to a quarterback and pulling him down requires a lot of different factors. If the quarterback has an outlet he can be impossible to sack. If he has no outlet, he might get sacked every play. Look at the Bears with Martz's offense. That offense has few outlets, it depends on the O-line to hold up. If they don't, the quarterback can't easily get rid of the ball. That's why Aldon went banana's against the Bears. Aldon applied a lot of pressure against other teams, but those teams were smart enough to scheme against him, and get rid of the ball with two and three step drops.

Aldon is still a much more raw player than either JJ Watt or Von Miller. Aldon plays the classic 3-4 OLB position. Watt and Miller play different positions that are not classic pass rushing positions. The league has a lot more experience scheming against the classic 3-4 OLB. I think they are all equal players, but I think Aldon still has the best upside for growth because he is still learning to transition to linebacker. All three of them deserve to be in the top ten.

An argument could be made that Justin Smith is more important than both of them to this defense. I don't subscribe to the "Justin makes Aldon theory" at all, if that where true every OLB that played next to Smith would have put up huge numbers. Aldon is a special talent so is P-Willy. But when Willis was hurt last year Grant stepped in and our defense didn't skip a beat. When Justin was out, our D was real average and I'm being nice there.

Originally posted by KegBert:
An argument could be made that Justin Smith is more important than both of them to this defense. I don't subscribe to the "Justin makes Aldon theory" at all, if that where true every OLB that played next to Smith would have put up huge numbers. Aldon is a special talent so is P-Willy. But when Willis was hurt last year Grant stepped in and our defense didn't skip a beat. When Justin was out, our D was real average and I'm being nice there.

Except for our record of limiting opposing RBs to under a hundred yards a game coming to an end.....

Originally posted by LoneWolf:
I think its a mix of players not liking his attitude and not appreciating his illegal game play. Which also happens to be the biggest thing that seperates him from being the best Corner in the league, Revis and other top shelf corners don't rely on tons of illegal contact during game play to get there interceptions, broken up passes etc, where without pushing the legal limits Sherman would not be as good as people like to believe.

Also those corners don't have to rely on constantly screaming at the receivers with a shrill, unintelligible voice. It's like nails on a chalk board.

Originally posted by KegBert:
An argument could be made that Justin Smith is more important than both of them to this defense. I don't subscribe to the "Justin makes Aldon theory" at all, if that where true every OLB that played next to Smith would have put up huge numbers. Aldon is a special talent so is P-Willy. But when Willis was hurt last year Grant stepped in and our defense didn't skip a beat. When Justin was out, our D was real average and I'm being nice there.

We need to take into consideration that Aldon also had a significant injury, and that he was injured before Justin.

The defense relies heavily on the dynamic interaction of the front seven and if two of front seven are playing hurt, the those interactions will suffer and the quality of the defense will drop.

The key to the defense is the front seven, and on that front seven there are five All Pro players. At some point arguing about which of those five is the weak link and which of five is heart and soul becomes disconnected from the reality of the work that they do together.

Originally posted by TheGhostofOak:

Originally posted by KegBert:

An argument could be made that Justin Smith is more important than both of them to this defense. I don't subscribe to the "Justin makes Aldon theory" at all, if that where true every OLB that played next to Smith would have put up huge numbers. Aldon is a special talent so is P-Willy. But when Willis was hurt last year Grant stepped in and our defense didn't skip a beat. When Justin was out, our D was real average and I'm being nice there.

Except for our record of limiting opposing RBs to under a hundred yards a game coming to an end.....

Remember who stripped T-Jax to seal the win?

Originally posted by buck:

We need to take into consideration that Aldon also had a significant injury, and that he was injured before Justin.

The defense relies heavily on the dynamic interaction of the front seven and if two of front seven are playing hurt, the those interactions will suffer and the quality of the defense will drop.

The key to the defense is the front seven, and on that front seven there are five All Pro players. At some point arguing about which of those five is the weak link and which of five is heart and soul becomes disconnected from the reality of the work that they do together.

Can't disagree with any of this.

Originally posted by KegBert:
An argument could be made that Justin Smith is more important than both of them to this defense. I don't subscribe to the "Justin makes Aldon theory" at all, if that where true every OLB that played next to Smith would have put up huge numbers. Aldon is a special talent so is P-Willy. But when Willis was hurt last year Grant stepped in and our defense didn't skip a beat. When Justin was out, our D was real average and I'm being nice there.

Critical thinking!! Thank you. How refreshing.