Replacing Delanie Walker... Yes or No?

Originally posted by Joecool:
Those 40 catches could contain 15 TDs and 30 catches on 3rd downs to get 1st downs. Getting the right player could improve our weakest areas.

not to mention open up alot of other people. you take fleener and moss and the days when teams could put thier safetys up on the line of scrimmage for gore are long gone, I feel bad for people who can not see the big picture

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Those 40 catches could contain 15 TDs and 30 catches on 3rd downs to get 1st downs. Getting the right player could improve our weakest areas.

not to mention open up alot of other people. you take fleener and moss and the days when teams could put thier safetys up on the line of scrimmage for gore are long gone, I feel bad for people who can not see the big picture

And it doesn't mean we need to pass more either. It can open up targets in greater space to average more per pass play where Alex could possibly keep the same number of attempts but total up to 8.6-9 yards per attempt racking up 3900-4000 yards.

Originally posted by Joecool:
And it doesn't mean we need to pass more either. It can open up targets in greater space to average more per pass play where Alex could possibly keep the same number of attempts but total up to 8.6-9 yards per attempt racking up 3900-4000 yards.

if fleener is gone when we pick,do you think we could create the same type of mismatches with another tight end they could find later in the draft?I know little about college football but i do know you have to have a plan b or c if that is a question for the draft forum, sorry.

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by Joecool:
And it doesn't mean we need to pass more either. It can open up targets in greater space to average more per pass play where Alex could possibly keep the same number of attempts but total up to 8.6-9 yards per attempt racking up 3900-4000 yards.

if fleener is gone when we pick,do you think we could create the same type of mismatches with another tight end they could find later in the draft?I know little about college football but i do know you have to have a plan b or c if that is a question for the draft forum, sorry.

Maybe but not as an immediate impact as Fleener due to his experience with Harbaugh alone. We do need a WR but there's still a question, not that he can't do it, about Alex proving what he can do with a WR first and the fact that a rookie WR who doesn't know Harbaugh's system will take longer to be effective in this offense.

Originally posted by Joecool:
Those 40 catches could contain 15 TDs and 30 catches on 3rd downs to get 1st downs. Getting the right player could improve our weakest areas.

When is the last time you saw a backup tight end catch 15 touchdowns? I don't see the TE position as an area of weakness right now. What we need is a physical WR with open field running ability who can start or play in the slot.

Originally posted by cciowa:
not to mention open up alot of other people. you take fleener and moss and the days when teams could put thier safetys up on the line of scrimmage for gore are long gone, I feel bad for people who can not see the big picture

Your assumption that I merely don't see the big picture and that you feel bad for me is pretty condescending. I merely don't see Fleener as the impact player you do. We will see who is correct when the season is over. You don't need to think people with the opposite opinion are uninformed to make you feel secure about your own opinion, we are all guessing when its all said and done.

Originally posted by DirtyP:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Those 40 catches could contain 15 TDs and 30 catches on 3rd downs to get 1st downs. Getting the right player could improve our weakest areas.

When is the last time you saw a backup tight end catch 15 touchdowns? I don't see the TE position as an area of weakness right now. What we need is a physical WR with open field running ability who can start or play in the slot.

You are completely correct...if it were the 70's. You do know we use a s**t load of 2 TE formations? Have you seen what the Pats did with their TE's? Do you know that Vernon sucks converting 3rd downs and is not all that great in the Red Zone?

So, why can't one of the TE's be our chain mover option route 7-10 yard guy and the other be the between the 20's game breaker type?

Originally posted by DirtyP:

Originally posted by cciowa:
not to mention open up alot of other people. you take fleener and moss and the days when teams could put thier safetys up on the line of scrimmage for gore are long gone, I feel bad for people who can not see the big picture

Your assumption that I merely don't see the big picture and that you feel bad for me is pretty condescending. I merely don't see Fleener as the impact player you do. We will see who is correct when the season is over. You don't need to think people with the opposite opinion are uninformed to make you feel secure about your own opinion, we are all guessing when its all said and done.

I could care less if we get Fleener or not. We are just discussing the possibilities IF we have a guy like Fleener. I am sure he will be more of an immediate impact than most WR's we have an option to get.

Originally posted by Joecool:
You are completely correct...if it were the 70's. You do know we use a s**t load of 2 TE formations? Have you seen what the Pats did with their TE's? Do you know that Vernon sucks converting 3rd downs and is not all that great in the Red Zone?

So, why can't one of the TE's be our chain mover option route 7-10 yard guy and the other be the between the 20's game breaker type?

Besides the Patriots, who have one of the best QBs of all time, when is the last time you saw a back up tight end be a regular factor from week to week?

Vernon Davis sucks converting 3rd downs and in the red zone? That is a gross oversimplification of our success in those two categories last year. The entire team, including the offensive line, receivers, running backs and QB struggled on 3rd down and in the redone, not just Vernon Davis. I for one would expect to see a huge improvement with the team returning to the same system this year and having an actual offseason to get it right before opening day. Vernon Davis was an excellent red zone target when he caught 20 tds over a two season stretch before Harbaugh arrived. If you don't recall that is the best of any TE over that span. You are also assuming that Fleener will be an impact player in the NFL, this is where you and I disagree, not whether or not adding a big third down target is needed.

Originally posted by DirtyP:

Originally posted by Joecool:
You are completely correct...if it were the 70's. You do know we use a s**t load of 2 TE formations? Have you seen what the Pats did with their TE's? Do you know that Vernon sucks converting 3rd downs and is not all that great in the Red Zone?

So, why can't one of the TE's be our chain mover option route 7-10 yard guy and the other be the between the 20's game breaker type?

Besides the Patriots, who have one of the best QBs of all time, when is the last time you saw a back up tight end be a regular factor from week to week?

Vernon Davis sucks converting 3rd downs and in the red zone? That is a gross oversimplification of our success in those two categories last year. The entire team, including the offensive line, receivers, running backs and QB struggled on 3rd down and in the redone, not just Vernon Davis. I for one would expect to see a huge improvement with the team returning to the same system this year and having an actual offseason to get it right before opening day. Vernon Davis was an excellent red zone target when he caught 20 tds over a two season stretch before Harbaugh arrived. If you don't recall that is the best of any TE over that span. You are also assuming that Fleener will be an impact player in the NFL, this is where you and I disagree, not whether or not adding a big third down target is needed.

That depends, how many teams run a 2-TE set often or even 3-TE's? There were times when we rarely had 3 WR's on the field. You are also stoning Vernon into specifically a TE formation, traditionally, and are overlooking the fact that having another receiving type TE can allow for Vernon to shift outside and determine the mismatch.

As for converting 3rd downs, it has always been convention that the TE is more of a safety valve. Vernon has proven time again that he is NOT that. He is not very good at sitting in the zone AND turning it for RAC. He is a full speed pattern type of player. We need a safety valve more than anything. Why? Because we were fine with the bigger chunks when it came to the passing game but sucked at getting that consistent 7-11 yard execution.

Most of Vernon's TD during that high TD year were from outside the red zone.

Originally posted by Joecool:
That depends, how many teams run a 2-TE set often or even 3-TE's? There were times when we rarely had 3 WR's on the field. You are also stoning Vernon into specifically a TE formation, traditionally, and are overlooking the fact that having another receiving type TE can allow for Vernon to shift outside and determine the mismatch.

As for converting 3rd downs, it has always been convention that the TE is more of a safety valve. Vernon has proven time again that he is NOT that. He is not very good at sitting in the zone AND turning it for RAC. He is a full speed pattern type of player. We need a safety valve more than anything. Why? Because we were fine with the bigger chunks when it came to the passing game but sucked at getting that consistent 7-11 yard execution.

Most of Vernon's TD during that high TD year were from outside the red zone.

We disagree on what Vernon is capable of as a player. As for the bolded, no most were not. Get yourself NFL rewind for $29.95 and take a looksy where most of his touchdowns came. Alex Smith was the best rated QB in the RZ during those years.

Originally posted by DirtyP:
Your assumption that I merely don't see the big picture and that you feel bad for me is pretty condescending. I merely don't see Fleener as the impact player you do. We will see who is correct when the season is over. You don't need to think people with the opposite opinion are uninformed to make you feel secure about your own opinion, we are all guessing when its all said and done.

i am sorry, i was not even talking about you.I really do not think you have any right to lecture me on something that had nothing to do with you

Originally posted by cciowa:
i am sorry, i was not even talking about you.I really do not think you have any right to lecture me on something that had nothing to do with you

my bad dude, its 420.

Originally posted by DirtyP:
my bad dude, its 420.

no worries bud!!

We sure are a long way from debatng about guys like Dominique Zeigler or Thomas Clayton getting more playing time.