Who would you rather have, Willis or Megatron ??

Originally posted by aTx49er:

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by JREED23:

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by JREED23:
I did check the stats, in fact that's what I based most of my assertion on. Maybe you should consider who have been throwing the ball to both of those WRs and the fact that there hasn't been many team worse in recent years than the chiefs, but the Lions are one of them. And currently, nobody is on Megatron's level.

i don't care who is throwing them the ball. The question is, "who would you rather have?" I'm basing it on the idea that you are starting a team from scratch, not just adding the player to whatever team already exists. Either way, my answer would be Willis. You can build a team around an elite MLB, and they are harder to find.

There are a lot of guys on Megatron's level. I edited my post above to point out a number of players who are Calvin's "level", but all you have to do is look through the stats. Calvin is a physical freak, but he's not the only one, and he's not the only productive receiver out there. He's a great player and I'd love to have him on my team, but gifted wide receivers are easier to find and of dubious necessity for a winning team.

You didn't answer my question - who is more replaceable? I think you don't get as much of a decline in production by replacing Willis with a 2nd tier LB as you do with replacing Johnson with a 2nd tier WR.

I would rather start my team with Johnson because of how things are going in the NFL these days - if you don't have big-time offensive production and at least one guy that is a threat to go deep every play, your chances of winning a SB are far less than if you had a good-great D. You can have an insane LB (we do) but your D line can suck (they have) and get reamed in the run game or you could have a sh*t secondary and get destroyed in the passing game, but with a WR like Johnson you are going to get offensive production no matter what.

The impact Megatron has on the game is like none other - to have a good running game you need a decent RB, threat of a passing game and at least 3 quality linemen, to have a effective passing game, all you need is Johnson - he has proven that no matter who throws him the ball, he will give you production.

Of the WRs you mentioned Fitz and Andre are the only guys in CJ's league. Steve Smith is having an excellent year, but we saw what he can (or can't) do with a lesser passer. Actually I believe that because of what Fitz was able to do last year with garbage QB play, he is the only WR capable of playing even near Megatron's level.

how good have the Lions been with Johnson? Not very. They didn't start to turn the corner until they got a difference making defender. Maybe our defensive ranking hasn't been that good even with Willis, but he is a difference maker; he makes impact plays.

A second tier WR would be, who? Vincent Jackson? Steve Smith? (I think he's first tier but I could see the argument for putting him in the second). Desean Jackson? Who is a second tier MLB? Barrett Ruud? I think the drop off from Willis to second-tier MLB is much greater than the drop off from Calvin Johnson to second tier WR.

There are more elite WR than elite MLB. You take the rarer player. Willis is more rare.

An elite WR is more valuable than an elite MLB.

BS.

An Elite WR gets more attention, but they aren't more important. When a WR gets 2 TDs, he's treated like a god. When a MLB makes 18 tackles, peeps barely notice.

Ya know when people realize how good the Linebacker is? When he NOT there and the other team is running roughshot all over your team and that star reciever is sitting on the bench waiting for a chance to play.

Very difficult choice. Patrick Willis is widely considered the second coming of Ray Lewis and Megatron is like a taller Terrell Owens. If you were to ask me to choose between T.O. and Ray 10 years ago, I probably would have picked T.O. I'm going with Patrick Willis though....

I believe these guys are both the best at their respective positions in the game. But at the end of the day, I think Willis is just more important to our defense than Megatron could be for our offense...don't get me wrong I'd LOVE to have him, but Willis is the heart and soul of our defense and plays with an attitude that makes his entire team better. Tough to say I'd rather have a WR that might get 10-12 targets in a game over that.

Originally posted by Marvin49:

Originally posted by aTx49er:

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by JREED23:

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by JREED23:
I did check the stats, in fact that's what I based most of my assertion on. Maybe you should consider who have been throwing the ball to both of those WRs and the fact that there hasn't been many team worse in recent years than the chiefs, but the Lions are one of them. And currently, nobody is on Megatron's level.

i don't care who is throwing them the ball. The question is, "who would you rather have?" I'm basing it on the idea that you are starting a team from scratch, not just adding the player to whatever team already exists. Either way, my answer would be Willis. You can build a team around an elite MLB, and they are harder to find.

There are a lot of guys on Megatron's level. I edited my post above to point out a number of players who are Calvin's "level", but all you have to do is look through the stats. Calvin is a physical freak, but he's not the only one, and he's not the only productive receiver out there. He's a great player and I'd love to have him on my team, but gifted wide receivers are easier to find and of dubious necessity for a winning team.

You didn't answer my question - who is more replaceable? I think you don't get as much of a decline in production by replacing Willis with a 2nd tier LB as you do with replacing Johnson with a 2nd tier WR.

I would rather start my team with Johnson because of how things are going in the NFL these days - if you don't have big-time offensive production and at least one guy that is a threat to go deep every play, your chances of winning a SB are far less than if you had a good-great D. You can have an insane LB (we do) but your D line can suck (they have) and get reamed in the run game or you could have a sh*t secondary and get destroyed in the passing game, but with a WR like Johnson you are going to get offensive production no matter what.

The impact Megatron has on the game is like none other - to have a good running game you need a decent RB, threat of a passing game and at least 3 quality linemen, to have a effective passing game, all you need is Johnson - he has proven that no matter who throws him the ball, he will give you production.

Of the WRs you mentioned Fitz and Andre are the only guys in CJ's league. Steve Smith is having an excellent year, but we saw what he can (or can't) do with a lesser passer. Actually I believe that because of what Fitz was able to do last year with garbage QB play, he is the only WR capable of playing even near Megatron's level.

how good have the Lions been with Johnson? Not very. They didn't start to turn the corner until they got a difference making defender. Maybe our defensive ranking hasn't been that good even with Willis, but he is a difference maker; he makes impact plays.

A second tier WR would be, who? Vincent Jackson? Steve Smith? (I think he's first tier but I could see the argument for putting him in the second). Desean Jackson? Who is a second tier MLB? Barrett Ruud? I think the drop off from Willis to second-tier MLB is much greater than the drop off from Calvin Johnson to second tier WR.

There are more elite WR than elite MLB. You take the rarer player. Willis is more rare.

An elite WR is more valuable than an elite MLB.

BS.

An Elite WR gets more attention, but they aren't more important. When a WR gets 2 TDs, he's treated like a god. When a MLB makes 18 tackles, peeps barely notice.

Ya know when people realize how good the Linebacker is? When he NOT there and the other team is running roughshot all over your team and that star reciever is sitting on the bench waiting for a chance to play.

What? If a MLB makes 18 tackles then he probably wins defensive player of the week. Willis had exactly 18 tackles when he got his first defensive player of the week.

Originally posted by aTx49er:

Originally posted by Marvin49:

Originally posted by aTx49er:

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by JREED23:

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by JREED23:
I did check the stats, in fact that's what I based most of my assertion on. Maybe you should consider who have been throwing the ball to both of those WRs and the fact that there hasn't been many team worse in recent years than the chiefs, but the Lions are one of them. And currently, nobody is on Megatron's level.

i don't care who is throwing them the ball. The question is, "who would you rather have?" I'm basing it on the idea that you are starting a team from scratch, not just adding the player to whatever team already exists. Either way, my answer would be Willis. You can build a team around an elite MLB, and they are harder to find.

There are a lot of guys on Megatron's level. I edited my post above to point out a number of players who are Calvin's "level", but all you have to do is look through the stats. Calvin is a physical freak, but he's not the only one, and he's not the only productive receiver out there. He's a great player and I'd love to have him on my team, but gifted wide receivers are easier to find and of dubious necessity for a winning team.

You didn't answer my question - who is more replaceable? I think you don't get as much of a decline in production by replacing Willis with a 2nd tier LB as you do with replacing Johnson with a 2nd tier WR.

I would rather start my team with Johnson because of how things are going in the NFL these days - if you don't have big-time offensive production and at least one guy that is a threat to go deep every play, your chances of winning a SB are far less than if you had a good-great D. You can have an insane LB (we do) but your D line can suck (they have) and get reamed in the run game or you could have a sh*t secondary and get destroyed in the passing game, but with a WR like Johnson you are going to get offensive production no matter what.

The impact Megatron has on the game is like none other - to have a good running game you need a decent RB, threat of a passing game and at least 3 quality linemen, to have a effective passing game, all you need is Johnson - he has proven that no matter who throws him the ball, he will give you production.

Of the WRs you mentioned Fitz and Andre are the only guys in CJ's league. Steve Smith is having an excellent year, but we saw what he can (or can't) do with a lesser passer. Actually I believe that because of what Fitz was able to do last year with garbage QB play, he is the only WR capable of playing even near Megatron's level.

how good have the Lions been with Johnson? Not very. They didn't start to turn the corner until they got a difference making defender. Maybe our defensive ranking hasn't been that good even with Willis, but he is a difference maker; he makes impact plays.

A second tier WR would be, who? Vincent Jackson? Steve Smith? (I think he's first tier but I could see the argument for putting him in the second). Desean Jackson? Who is a second tier MLB? Barrett Ruud? I think the drop off from Willis to second-tier MLB is much greater than the drop off from Calvin Johnson to second tier WR.

There are more elite WR than elite MLB. You take the rarer player. Willis is more rare.

An elite WR is more valuable than an elite MLB.

BS.

An Elite WR gets more attention, but they aren't more important. When a WR gets 2 TDs, he's treated like a god. When a MLB makes 18 tackles, peeps barely notice.

Ya know when people realize how good the Linebacker is? When he NOT there and the other team is running roughshot all over your team and that star reciever is sitting on the bench waiting for a chance to play.

What? If a MLB makes 18 tackles then he probably wins defensive player of the week. Willis had exactly 18 tackles when he got his first defensive player of the week.

An elite WR is nothing without competent QB. An elite MLB gets help from his DL. Willis has produced even with our s**tty DL's. Gimme Willis.

Defense wins championships.. Wills baby!

Originally posted by aTx49er:

Originally posted by Marvin49:

Originally posted by aTx49er:

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by JREED23:

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by JREED23:
I did check the stats, in fact that's what I based most of my assertion on. Maybe you should consider who have been throwing the ball to both of those WRs and the fact that there hasn't been many team worse in recent years than the chiefs, but the Lions are one of them. And currently, nobody is on Megatron's level.

i don't care who is throwing them the ball. The question is, "who would you rather have?" I'm basing it on the idea that you are starting a team from scratch, not just adding the player to whatever team already exists. Either way, my answer would be Willis. You can build a team around an elite MLB, and they are harder to find.

There are a lot of guys on Megatron's level. I edited my post above to point out a number of players who are Calvin's "level", but all you have to do is look through the stats. Calvin is a physical freak, but he's not the only one, and he's not the only productive receiver out there. He's a great player and I'd love to have him on my team, but gifted wide receivers are easier to find and of dubious necessity for a winning team.

You didn't answer my question - who is more replaceable? I think you don't get as much of a decline in production by replacing Willis with a 2nd tier LB as you do with replacing Johnson with a 2nd tier WR.

I would rather start my team with Johnson because of how things are going in the NFL these days - if you don't have big-time offensive production and at least one guy that is a threat to go deep every play, your chances of winning a SB are far less than if you had a good-great D. You can have an insane LB (we do) but your D line can suck (they have) and get reamed in the run game or you could have a sh*t secondary and get destroyed in the passing game, but with a WR like Johnson you are going to get offensive production no matter what.

The impact Megatron has on the game is like none other - to have a good running game you need a decent RB, threat of a passing game and at least 3 quality linemen, to have a effective passing game, all you need is Johnson - he has proven that no matter who throws him the ball, he will give you production.

Of the WRs you mentioned Fitz and Andre are the only guys in CJ's league. Steve Smith is having an excellent year, but we saw what he can (or can't) do with a lesser passer. Actually I believe that because of what Fitz was able to do last year with garbage QB play, he is the only WR capable of playing even near Megatron's level.

how good have the Lions been with Johnson? Not very. They didn't start to turn the corner until they got a difference making defender. Maybe our defensive ranking hasn't been that good even with Willis, but he is a difference maker; he makes impact plays.

A second tier WR would be, who? Vincent Jackson? Steve Smith? (I think he's first tier but I could see the argument for putting him in the second). Desean Jackson? Who is a second tier MLB? Barrett Ruud? I think the drop off from Willis to second-tier MLB is much greater than the drop off from Calvin Johnson to second tier WR.

There are more elite WR than elite MLB. You take the rarer player. Willis is more rare.

An elite WR is more valuable than an elite MLB.

BS.

An Elite WR gets more attention, but they aren't more important. When a WR gets 2 TDs, he's treated like a god. When a MLB makes 18 tackles, peeps barely notice.

Ya know when people realize how good the Linebacker is? When he NOT there and the other team is running roughshot all over your team and that star reciever is sitting on the bench waiting for a chance to play.

What? If a MLB makes 18 tackles then he probably wins defensive player of the week. Willis had exactly 18 tackles when he got his first defensive player of the week.

...and thats not the most tackles he's had in a game and its the first time he's won it.

Did YOU know he had 18 tackles DURING the game? Did you hear a single announcer talking about it?

Its just not FLASHY. Thats my point. Just as important a position, just not as flashy and attention getting.

Originally posted by HaiGuise:

Originally posted by aTx49er:

Originally posted by Marvin49:

Originally posted by aTx49er:

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by JREED23:

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by JREED23:
I did check the stats, in fact that's what I based most of my assertion on. Maybe you should consider who have been throwing the ball to both of those WRs and the fact that there hasn't been many team worse in recent years than the chiefs, but the Lions are one of them. And currently, nobody is on Megatron's level.

i don't care who is throwing them the ball. The question is, "who would you rather have?" I'm basing it on the idea that you are starting a team from scratch, not just adding the player to whatever team already exists. Either way, my answer would be Willis. You can build a team around an elite MLB, and they are harder to find.

There are a lot of guys on Megatron's level. I edited my post above to point out a number of players who are Calvin's "level", but all you have to do is look through the stats. Calvin is a physical freak, but he's not the only one, and he's not the only productive receiver out there. He's a great player and I'd love to have him on my team, but gifted wide receivers are easier to find and of dubious necessity for a winning team.

You didn't answer my question - who is more replaceable? I think you don't get as much of a decline in production by replacing Willis with a 2nd tier LB as you do with replacing Johnson with a 2nd tier WR.

I would rather start my team with Johnson because of how things are going in the NFL these days - if you don't have big-time offensive production and at least one guy that is a threat to go deep every play, your chances of winning a SB are far less than if you had a good-great D. You can have an insane LB (we do) but your D line can suck (they have) and get reamed in the run game or you could have a sh*t secondary and get destroyed in the passing game, but with a WR like Johnson you are going to get offensive production no matter what.

The impact Megatron has on the game is like none other - to have a good running game you need a decent RB, threat of a passing game and at least 3 quality linemen, to have a effective passing game, all you need is Johnson - he has proven that no matter who throws him the ball, he will give you production.

Of the WRs you mentioned Fitz and Andre are the only guys in CJ's league. Steve Smith is having an excellent year, but we saw what he can (or can't) do with a lesser passer. Actually I believe that because of what Fitz was able to do last year with garbage QB play, he is the only WR capable of playing even near Megatron's level.

how good have the Lions been with Johnson? Not very. They didn't start to turn the corner until they got a difference making defender. Maybe our defensive ranking hasn't been that good even with Willis, but he is a difference maker; he makes impact plays.

A second tier WR would be, who? Vincent Jackson? Steve Smith? (I think he's first tier but I could see the argument for putting him in the second). Desean Jackson? Who is a second tier MLB? Barrett Ruud? I think the drop off from Willis to second-tier MLB is much greater than the drop off from Calvin Johnson to second tier WR.

There are more elite WR than elite MLB. You take the rarer player. Willis is more rare.

An elite WR is more valuable than an elite MLB.

BS.

An Elite WR gets more attention, but they aren't more important. When a WR gets 2 TDs, he's treated like a god. When a MLB makes 18 tackles, peeps barely notice.

Ya know when people realize how good the Linebacker is? When he NOT there and the other team is running roughshot all over your team and that star reciever is sitting on the bench waiting for a chance to play.

What? If a MLB makes 18 tackles then he probably wins defensive player of the week. Willis had exactly 18 tackles when he got his first defensive player of the week.

An elite WR is nothing without competent QB. An elite MLB gets help from his DL. Willis has produced even with our s**tty DL's. Gimme Willis.

Not even close to being true - see Megatron's stats in 2008 then look at who was throwing the ball to him, or just refer to my previous posts.

You all can have Megatron, I'll take the girl..

His name is Johnson. I hate this "Megatron" crap. Who named him that anyway? I hope he sucks this weekend. I would take Willis. Has proven himself as a probowl player for several years. Johnson has just started to really play well and who knows if it will last.

I can see your point about the girl.....

How is this even a question? The debate whether NFL GMs believe WR or MLB is a more important position is easily settled by looking at virtually any draft year. It's not a knock on Willis to say you'd take Johnson over him.

Next thing you know, someone will ask "Willis or Rodgers" and zoners will pick Willis because "he made 18 tackles by himself and an elite QB needs weapons to make plays!!!!!"

Originally posted by LieutKaffee:
How is this even a question? The debate whether NFL GMs believe WR or MLB is a more important position is easily settled by looking at virtually any draft year. It's not a knock on Willis to say you'd take Johnson over him.

Next thing you know, someone will ask "Willis or Rodgers" and zoners will pick Willis because "he made 18 tackles by himself and an elite QB needs weapons to make plays!!!!!"

Yeah...thats what I said. QB is in another catagory completely.

I stand by what I said. A great MLB is just as important as a great WR. Its just not as flashy.

Do the Bears with a SB without Singletary? To the Ravens win without Lewis?

Its not a knock on Willis to say I'd prefer Johnson...I just DON'T. Its also OK to like the guy you have an not drool over a player on another team. The grass is always greener. CJ is among the best in the NFL, but he hasn't been to the Pro Bowl 4 times in 4 years and isn't a 3 time All-Pro.

Originally posted by Marvin49:

Originally posted by LieutKaffee:
How is this even a question? The debate whether NFL GMs believe WR or MLB is a more important position is easily settled by looking at virtually any draft year. It's not a knock on Willis to say you'd take Johnson over him.

Next thing you know, someone will ask "Willis or Rodgers" and zoners will pick Willis because "he made 18 tackles by himself and an elite QB needs weapons to make plays!!!!!"

Yeah...thats what I said. QB is in another catagory completely.

I stand by what I said. A great MLB is just as important as a great WR. Its just not as flashy.

Do the Bears with a SB without Singletary? To the Ravens win without Lewis?

Its not a knock on Willis to say I'd prefer Johnson...I just DON'T. Its also OK to like the guy you have an not drool over a player on another team. The grass is always greener. CJ is among the best in the NFL, but he hasn't been to the Pro Bowl 4 times in 4 years and isn't a 3 time All-Pro.

I don't see this as a grass is greener conversation. You're right that QB is another category, but that's my point: so is WR. Of the three positions, the hierarchy goes QB --> WR --> MLB. I don't think anyone can really dispute that.

Originally posted by LieutKaffee:

Originally posted by Marvin49:

Originally posted by LieutKaffee:
How is this even a question? The debate whether NFL GMs believe WR or MLB is a more important position is easily settled by looking at virtually any draft year. It's not a knock on Willis to say you'd take Johnson over him.

Next thing you know, someone will ask "Willis or Rodgers" and zoners will pick Willis because "he made 18 tackles by himself and an elite QB needs weapons to make plays!!!!!"

Yeah...thats what I said. QB is in another catagory completely.

I stand by what I said. A great MLB is just as important as a great WR. Its just not as flashy.

Do the Bears with a SB without Singletary? To the Ravens win without Lewis?

Its not a knock on Willis to say I'd prefer Johnson...I just DON'T. Its also OK to like the guy you have an not drool over a player on another team. The grass is always greener. CJ is among the best in the NFL, but he hasn't been to the Pro Bowl 4 times in 4 years and isn't a 3 time All-Pro.

I don't see this as a grass is greener conversation. You're right that QB is another category, but that's my point: so is WR. Of the three positions, the hierarchy goes QB --> WR --> MLB. I don't think anyone can really dispute that.

...except I just did.

You can't just say it can't be disputed and walk away. Tell Me WHY you think they WRs are more important.

You say that you can just look at the draft to tell you that, but there are 4 or 5 WRs on every team...of course more will be selected. They are also starting to be de-valued in the draft. Two went top 10 this year and no LBs, but....

2010: Rolando McLain went top 10 last year with no WRs.

2009: Aaron Curry went several picks before DHB or Crabtree the year before.

2008: Kieth Rivers was taken top 10, no WRs.

2007: Willis was taken at #11 and Calvin at #2. Who has 4 Pro Bowls? Who is 3 times All-Pro?

2006: AJ Hawk went top 10 with no Recievers being taken.

I'm sure you will find a number of years where several WRs were taken before LBs. Thats not my point. My point is that the skill of the players is the factor in the draft, not the position they play. QB is different of course as is to some extent CB and Left Tackle.

If you are going to try to make a bold statement like "nobody can dispute that", you're going to have to make a better point than simply making the statement.

I can do it too.....Alex Smith is the best QB of all time. I said it. I guess that makes it true. Wait....better yet, nobody can dispute that Alex Smith is the best QB of all time. There. Thats the ticket.

Originally posted by LieutKaffee:

Originally posted by Marvin49:

Originally posted by LieutKaffee:
How is this even a question? The debate whether NFL GMs believe WR or MLB is a more important position is easily settled by looking at virtually any draft year. It's not a knock on Willis to say you'd take Johnson over him.

Next thing you know, someone will ask "Willis or Rodgers" and zoners will pick Willis because "he made 18 tackles by himself and an elite QB needs weapons to make plays!!!!!"

Yeah...thats what I said. QB is in another catagory completely.

I stand by what I said. A great MLB is just as important as a great WR. Its just not as flashy.

Do the Bears with a SB without Singletary? To the Ravens win without Lewis?

Its not a knock on Willis to say I'd prefer Johnson...I just DON'T. Its also OK to like the guy you have an not drool over a player on another team. The grass is always greener. CJ is among the best in the NFL, but he hasn't been to the Pro Bowl 4 times in 4 years and isn't a 3 time All-Pro.

I don't see this as a grass is greener conversation. You're right that QB is another category, but that's my point: so is WR. Of the three positions, the hierarchy goes QB --> WR --> MLB. I don't think anyone can really dispute that.

Receivers are important, but not more important than impact defenders, no matter what position they play.