Are we seeing a horribly managed free agency? Or something bigger?

Originally posted by OptimusPrime52:

Originally posted by unst4bl3:

Originally posted by OptimusPrime52:

Originally posted by area49:

Originally posted by Lifer:

Originally posted by JustMike:
In just a few short days, we all went from being happy that football is back, to bickering over the front office and this free agency. But instead of seeing this as a failure as some have suggested, maybe this is the plan.
Maybe this teams personel is very much all wrong for the kind of team Harbaugh and co. are wanting to build. We have had nearly a decade of horrible to mediocre football, instead of trying to build little by little and trying to turn a group of players 180 degrees, why not blow it up and build from scratch?
If you think about it, it actually makes a lot of the moves, thus far, add up:
Alex Smith: better a vet with little chance to succeed take the lumps during the mass transition.
Releasing some vets: out with the old and in with youth, to be trained in their earliest stages of there careers.

This is my thinking, it may be flawed or right on the money. I think its a risky move and I am for it, I would rather this team set itself up for a long stretch of success than a inconsistant run with lots of bumps in the road.

What do you people think?

I've been watching the York-49ers flounder for 11 years now. I used to see see them do these inexplicable things and think "They must know what they're doing, right? There's got to be some larger plan and grand strategy that they're working on... right?"

Nope. They're just floundering. Like they always do. Year, after year, after year.

They make some good moves from time to time. But they always follow the good moves with some brainless inaction that robs all the momentum. It's always one step forward, two steps back. The 49ers were close this year. They had a reasonably talented roster and they hired a great young coach. On defense especially, they were only a couple players away from being legitimate. So what do they do? Gut the defense. Jettison 4-5 starters (Clements, Lawson, Spikes, Franklin, maybe Goldson) while only having a plan to replace two of them (Bowman and Sopoaga), then sit back and hope that things will magically work out somehow. Then they have the gall to get in front of the microphones and say "We're gonna be patient. We believe in building through the draft."

Well, it's been 10 years and they still haven't built anything. Probably the best RB in 49er history is nearing the end of his career and he's never seen the playoffs; never had a winning season. The same fate is looming for Willis and Vernon Davis: squandering the best years of their football playing lives waiting for the York-49ers to get it all together.

Building a football team is not necessarily a matter of patience. There is a time for patience; and there is a time for urgency. Player careers are short. When you get a good core of good players, like we have (had) on defense, there's only a small window of opportunity.

Plain and simple, we need new owners. And there ARE people out there who want to buy a pro football team.

if we had tom brady on the niners last year we would have went deep into the playoffs with the yorks as our owner. we need good coaching and solid players. the only thing the yorks do is write checks.

I have to disagree with you there, we still had coach sing.. we still would have went 3 and out.

thats your opinion and i respect it. sing was a sack of #$#$

we definitely agree there. I still feel like no matter what our record is, the product on the field this year will be much more entertaining.

The niners are one of the biggest jokes in the NFL. Nobody wants to come here. That is why I gave up my season tickets this year. 16years of running downhill and Im through. These were good seats on the North 20yd line, 12 rows up from the field. I'm not going to throw 2500 dollars a year away for 2 seats to watch a garbage team that plays in a garbage stadium. I'll watch them on tv and turn it off in the 3rd quarter as they"re getting their a$$es kicked one more time.

Originally posted by smashmouth51:
The niners are one of the biggest jokes in the NFL. Nobody wants to come here. That is why I gave up my season tickets this year. 16years of running downhill and Im through. These were good seats on the North 20yd line, 12 rows up from the field. I'm not going to throw 2500 dollars a year away for 2 seats to watch a garbage team that plays in a garbage stadium. I'll watch them on tv and turn it off in the 3rd quarter as they"re getting their a$$es kicked one more time.

I feel your pain, I know for a fact though there was 2-3 games last year (bucs, chiefs game esp) where I turned it off at halftime.

Originally posted by 190836:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by 190836:
Some fans are trying to be optimistic and relate this melt down to Walsh's 78-79 era. I like Harbaugh, but he is no Bill Walsh and Jed is not his uncle Eddie. I am wondering what is behind this lack of commitment to improvement of the roster. Are they trying to clear house? Do they really believe in the players that they have? Is Harbaugh's ego so big that he thinks he could win with this team?

So chicken and egg here - how did you know Bill Wash was a "genius" before 1981? How did you know Eddie DeBartolo (who wanted to fire Walsh at one time) was a good owner until the end of 1984? It's funny that most of the questions you're raising are nearly identical to the questions people asked about Walsh. Do I think Harbaugh is Walsh? Maybe - maybe not. However, I'd be okay with a Sean Peyton.

However, since no game has been played and we aren't even looking at a complete roster with the start of the FA signing period being yesterday, I'd say the team is far from the "we believe we can win with this team" assumption.

You and I been going over this for a while. Let me explain this to you in a simple way, so you can understand. I've been watching this team for over thirty five years. No one new if Bill Walsh was a genius when he was hired by Eddie. And yes, I know about Eddie wanting to fire Walsh back in the day. Like I have mentioned earlier. My problem is not so much with Harbaugh. But I do have a problem with Jed and John York. Any intelligent person should question the direction of this organization under this family. Its only fair. You on the other hand, dogmatically defend this ownership that have brought a losing culture and misery to this team. How many years has it been since we had a winning season? How many years has it been since we were in playoffs? I get what you are saying about the Yorks not being the ones who do the drafting and setting the roster. But they are the owners, they set the tone. Its their corporate culture that trickles down throughout the whole organization. If this thing doesn't work the way they expect it to work, what is your excuse then? So far our losses has been grater than our gains. Don't you think so? Try to look at this from a different perspective.

Okay Lowell, I got a question about your post: explain, if you can, exactly how the "corporate culture trickle down theory" works.

I.e., the owner, Dr. John York practices medicine. So his understanding of pharmacy and the use of drugs to treat certain conditions "trickles down" to the way Colin Kaepernick releases the ball on a pass, i.e., his throwing motion? That it? Or did I miss a step or two?

How about: Dr. York's "corporate culture" of his medical practice directly caused Scott Mcglouhan to overly indulge in alcohol, which directly led to the drafting of Crabtree, which caused the most recent foot injury that will not be cured until Crabtree actually makes an appointment to see Dr. York and get a culture done of his foot fungus so it can be (in)corporated into his training regimen.

That any closer?

Your "corporate culture trickle down" theory is unsupported and absurd.

John York followed some bad advice (including some from Walsh about who to hire as GM), and its taken years to overcome those earlier mistakes. He's not the first NFL owner to experience this phenomenon (see Lions, Detroit), and won't be the last. And his son, Jed, has also had some on the job training mistakes (hiring Singletary chief amongst them) but seems to have learned from them and is showing some promise.

Your "Yorks = bad juujuu" voodoo mantra is simplistic and nonsensical. How bout you try to look at it from a different perspective. If you can.

BTW, I like Iggy, he seems normal and writes some good, entertaining and informative stuff. Must take to his mother's side.

[ Edited by oldninerdude on Jul 30, 2011 at 15:40:03 ]

Originally posted by unst4bl3:

Originally posted by smashmouth51:
The niners are one of the biggest jokes in the NFL. Nobody wants to come here. That is why I gave up my season tickets this year. 16years of running downhill and Im through. These were good seats on the North 20yd line, 12 rows up from the field. I'm not going to throw 2500 dollars a year away for 2 seats to watch a garbage team that plays in a garbage stadium. I'll watch them on tv and turn it off in the 3rd quarter as they"re getting their a$$es kicked one more time.

I feel your pain, I know for a fact though there was 2-3 games last year (bucs, chiefs game esp) where I turned it off at halftime.

I know for a fact that I've never turned a game off at halftime.

Your blood pressure is probably lower than mine tho bc of it.

Goldson maybe close to signing somewhere.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by 190836:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by 190836:
Some fans are trying to be optimistic and relate this melt down to Walsh's 78-79 era. I like Harbaugh, but he is no Bill Walsh and Jed is not his uncle Eddie. I am wondering what is behind this lack of commitment to improvement of the roster. Are they trying to clear house? Do they really believe in the players that they have? Is Harbaugh's ego so big that he thinks he could win with this team?

So chicken and egg here - how did you know Bill Wash was a "genius" before 1981? How did you know Eddie DeBartolo (who wanted to fire Walsh at one time) was a good owner until the end of 1984? It's funny that most of the questions you're raising are nearly identical to the questions people asked about Walsh. Do I think Harbaugh is Walsh? Maybe - maybe not. However, I'd be okay with a Sean Peyton.

However, since no game has been played and we aren't even looking at a complete roster with the start of the FA signing period being yesterday, I'd say the team is far from the "we believe we can win with this team" assumption.

You and I been going over this for a while. Let me explain this to you in a simple way, so you can understand. I've been watching this team for over thirty five years. No one new if Bill Walsh was a genius when he was hired by Eddie. And yes, I know about Eddie wanting to fire Walsh back in the day. Like I have mentioned earlier. My problem is not so much with Harbaugh. But I do have a problem with Jed and John York. Any intelligent person should question the direction of this organization under this family. Its only fair. You on the other hand, dogmatically defend this ownership that have brought a losing culture and misery to this team. How many years has it been since we had a winning season? How many years has it been since we were in playoffs? I get what you are saying about the Yorks not being the ones who do the drafting and setting the roster. But they are the owners, they set the tone. Its their corporate culture that trickles down throughout the whole organization. If this thing doesn't work the way they expect it to work, what is your excuse then? So far our losses has been grater than our gains. Don't you think so? Try to look at this from a different perspective.

I am looking at it from the other perspective. And I have questioned the direction of the organization before. What annoys me is that people here only think in absolutes - and there in lies the problem. Either someone dogmatically defends a position or they are totally for something, never nuanced. As a result, the discussion here often flirts with the absurd in my opinion.

Let me respond in a very basic way because my response to you was based on what you stated earlier:

Quote:

I like Harbaugh, but he is no Bill Walsh and Jed is not his uncle Eddie.

Again, a clearly absolute statement without merit given Jed has been in charge of running the football side of this team for 2 years and Harbaugh was hired this past winter. How can you absolutely say either unless you're clairvoyant? Again, I'm not "defending" the organization, just calling out absurd, absolute, baseless statements that have no reliance on fact.

Then your response:

Quote:
No one new if Bill Walsh was a genius when he was hired by Eddie. And yes, I know about Eddie wanting to fire Walsh back in the day. Like I have mentioned earlier. My problem is not so much with Harbaugh. But I do have a problem with Jed and John York.

So if no one knew Bill Walsh was a genius, then way say "Harbaugh is no Bill Walsh?" Again I have made one statement about defending the "organization", just identifying what I constantly see around here - the exercise of hyperbole.

I understand that people are very critical of John York and then of Jed. I hate losing just like anyone else. I love this team. However, again there's been this hyperbole of blaming the Yorks for the past 8 years of bad football, and if we review season by season of those past 8 years, you'll quickly find that yes the Yorks had SOME of the blame, but what was placed on the filed was the result of a more shared responsibility. I know it's easy to say "the York Culture" and I know Cohn, Ira Miller and other old school 49er beat writers have never forgiven John for the whole Dennis Erickson thing and the "players should buy their own water" and "coaches will have to share hotel rooms" kind of thing. Unfortunately those actions have become more legend than daily football operational fact.

Quote:
Yorks not being the ones who do the drafting and setting the roster. But they are the owners, they set the tone. Its their corporate culture that trickles down throughout the whole organization.

I'm looking for the place where "The Yorks" - both Jed and John have said we want to lose, we don't want a stadium, we don't want to do what it takes to win. What does that mean in your opinion? Winning at all cost? Does that mean we sign every popular free-agent out there? What does "corporate culture" mean? I do agree with you that both John and Jed have made some disastrous hires, Donahue and Singletary respectively. However, I find it ironic that the most disastrous hire, Donahue who slashed and cut almost every vet on the team was a Walsh recommendation, wait no strong term - heir apparent. It took many, many seasons to build the team after Donahue's disastrous GM-ing. I'm not trying to defend the Yorks because Donahue was their hire, but just trying to move away from the hyperbole-speak.

I've questioned the direction of this organization - but I've questioned specific roles. I was a BIG critic of Scott McCloughan while many here defended him relentlessly. I was a huge critic of Nolan and then Singletary - both men were not ready to be HC in an offensive-oriented NFL. I was a huge Donahue critic and nearly everything he did with the team. And when the Yorks were at fault for these hires, I questioned whether there was enough pro football know-how in the organization.

Again a nuanced response - not so easy as on/off or black/white; the reason why I am not reacting as others have because I thought the Harbaugh hire was a huge indicator of the change in direction for this organization. Gone is the McCloughan philosophy of "only get athletes" (which is why we had so many freaking projects) to a philosophy of grabbing football players. The coaches Harbaugh marshaled to this team is impressive for any NFL squad. Given the shear bona fides of this coaching staff, none of which HAD to come here, I can't see during the 2nd day of FA, that they've had no input. However, to imply that all that's transpired over the past week is because of "The Yorks" or because of a bad culture that's somehow infected Harbaugh and all position coaches within a month is a little bit of a leap for me.

Again I understand the passion of the other side, I just don't agree with the hyperbole.

All that being said, please don't take my response as either a disregard or disrespect of opposing opinions in this forum. I know I can become easily excitable about this, but I'm still in a wait-and-see mode right now.

Nicely stated. I agree.

Willis is feeling the pain too. Everything he has said leads me to beleive he is fed up and wants out. He is probably really sorry that he couldn't leave yeaterday. We should trade Crabtree to Phily for one of their corners. Crabtree's foot will miraculously get better right away and we would have a good corner who will actually go to training camp and play with some heart. Crabtree never wanted to come here and has been as big of a pain as possible so he will get traded or cut.

Originally posted by OptimusPrime52:

Originally posted by area49:

Originally posted by Lifer:

Originally posted by JustMike:
In just a few short days, we all went from being happy that football is back, to bickering over the front office and this free agency. But instead of seeing this as a failure as some have suggested, maybe this is the plan.
Maybe this teams personel is very much all wrong for the kind of team Harbaugh and co. are wanting to build. We have had nearly a decade of horrible to mediocre football, instead of trying to build little by little and trying to turn a group of players 180 degrees, why not blow it up and build from scratch?
If you think about it, it actually makes a lot of the moves, thus far, add up:
Alex Smith: better a vet with little chance to succeed take the lumps during the mass transition.
Releasing some vets: out with the old and in with youth, to be trained in their earliest stages of there careers.

This is my thinking, it may be flawed or right on the money. I think its a risky move and I am for it, I would rather this team set itself up for a long stretch of success than a inconsistant run with lots of bumps in the road.

What do you people think?

I've been watching the York-49ers flounder for 11 years now. I used to see see them do these inexplicable things and think "They must know what they're doing, right? There's got to be some larger plan and grand strategy that they're working on... right?"

Nope. They're just floundering. Like they always do. Year, after year, after year.

They make some good moves from time to time. But they always follow the good moves with some brainless inaction that robs all the momentum. It's always one step forward, two steps back. The 49ers were close this year. They had a reasonably talented roster and they hired a great young coach. On defense especially, they were only a couple players away from being legitimate. So what do they do? Gut the defense. Jettison 4-5 starters (Clements, Lawson, Spikes, Franklin, maybe Goldson) while only having a plan to replace two of them (Bowman and Sopoaga), then sit back and hope that things will magically work out somehow. Then they have the gall to get in front of the microphones and say "We're gonna be patient. We believe in building through the draft."

Well, it's been 10 years and they still haven't built anything. Probably the best RB in 49er history is nearing the end of his career and he's never seen the playoffs; never had a winning season. The same fate is looming for Willis and Vernon Davis: squandering the best years of their football playing lives waiting for the York-49ers to get it all together.

Building a football team is not necessarily a matter of patience. There is a time for patience; and there is a time for urgency. Player careers are short. When you get a good core of good players, like we have (had) on defense, there's only a small window of opportunity.

Plain and simple, we need new owners. And there ARE people out there who want to buy a pro football team.

if we had tom brady on the niners last year we would have went deep into the playoffs with the yorks as our owner. we need good coaching and solid players. the only thing the yorks do is write checks.

apparently they dont even do that anymore...

One of the biggest problems with Niner ownership is that they aren't very wealthy. The York family are millionaires not billionairs. Therefore, they constantly are counting every penny. They are always looking for a deal. The excuse about the cap is just that, an excuse. Every year we have been well under the cap. This is a team game, but they approach every player as if he is an island unto his own. The dont realize that sometimes you have to over pay a players because his absensnce is too detrimental to the team as a whole. Not having your old starters in some positions will have a huge trickle down effect because now you will be starting players that weren't even good enough to supplant your average starter. And the guy who use to be third on depth chart and never see the field will now be covering a teams second and third WR.........Why dont people get that?

Originally posted by cwilson830:

Originally posted by unst4bl3:

Originally posted by smashmouth51:
The niners are one of the biggest jokes in the NFL. Nobody wants to come here. That is why I gave up my season tickets this year. 16years of running downhill and Im through. These were good seats on the North 20yd line, 12 rows up from the field. I'm not going to throw 2500 dollars a year away for 2 seats to watch a garbage team that plays in a garbage stadium. I'll watch them on tv and turn it off in the 3rd quarter as they"re getting their a$$es kicked one more time.

I feel your pain, I know for a fact though there was 2-3 games last year (bucs, chiefs game esp) where I turned it off at halftime.

I know for a fact that I've never turned a game off at halftime.

Your blood pressure is probably lower than mine tho bc of it.

Well the Bucs Game I turned back in midway through the 3rd only to rage out again, the Chiefs game just looked like it was going to be a lopsided loss from the start.

I'm not sure my blood pressure is any lower, the crappy losses the last 10 seasons or so has ruined many a sunday, and monday.

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by OptimusPrime52:

Originally posted by area49:

Originally posted by Lifer:

Originally posted by JustMike:
In just a few short days, we all went from being happy that football is back, to bickering over the front office and this free agency. But instead of seeing this as a failure as some have suggested, maybe this is the plan.
Maybe this teams personel is very much all wrong for the kind of team Harbaugh and co. are wanting to build. We have had nearly a decade of horrible to mediocre football, instead of trying to build little by little and trying to turn a group of players 180 degrees, why not blow it up and build from scratch?
If you think about it, it actually makes a lot of the moves, thus far, add up:
Alex Smith: better a vet with little chance to succeed take the lumps during the mass transition.
Releasing some vets: out with the old and in with youth, to be trained in their earliest stages of there careers.

This is my thinking, it may be flawed or right on the money. I think its a risky move and I am for it, I would rather this team set itself up for a long stretch of success than a inconsistant run with lots of bumps in the road.

What do you people think?

I've been watching the York-49ers flounder for 11 years now. I used to see see them do these inexplicable things and think "They must know what they're doing, right? There's got to be some larger plan and grand strategy that they're working on... right?"

Nope. They're just floundering. Like they always do. Year, after year, after year.

They make some good moves from time to time. But they always follow the good moves with some brainless inaction that robs all the momentum. It's always one step forward, two steps back. The 49ers were close this year. They had a reasonably talented roster and they hired a great young coach. On defense especially, they were only a couple players away from being legitimate. So what do they do? Gut the defense. Jettison 4-5 starters (Clements, Lawson, Spikes, Franklin, maybe Goldson) while only having a plan to replace two of them (Bowman and Sopoaga), then sit back and hope that things will magically work out somehow. Then they have the gall to get in front of the microphones and say "We're gonna be patient. We believe in building through the draft."

Well, it's been 10 years and they still haven't built anything. Probably the best RB in 49er history is nearing the end of his career and he's never seen the playoffs; never had a winning season. The same fate is looming for Willis and Vernon Davis: squandering the best years of their football playing lives waiting for the York-49ers to get it all together.

Building a football team is not necessarily a matter of patience. There is a time for patience; and there is a time for urgency. Player careers are short. When you get a good core of good players, like we have (had) on defense, there's only a small window of opportunity.

Plain and simple, we need new owners. And there ARE people out there who want to buy a pro football team.

if we had tom brady on the niners last year we would have went deep into the playoffs with the yorks as our owner. we need good coaching and solid players. the only thing the yorks do is write checks.

apparently they dont even do that anymore...

One of the biggest problems with Niner ownership is that they aren't very wealthy. The York family are millionaires not billionairs. Therefore, they constantly are counting every penny. They are always looking for a deal. The excuse about the cap is just that, an excuse. Every year we have been well under the cap. This is a team game, but they approach every player as if he is an island unto his own. The dont realize that sometimes you have to over pay a players because his absensnce is too detrimental to the team as a whole. Not having your old starters in some positions will have a huge trickle down effect because now you will be starting players that weren't even good enough to supplant your average starter. And the guy who use to be third on depth chart and never see the field will now be covering a teams second and third WR.........Why dont people get that?

I grew up with the St. Louis Cardinals and the Bidwells were the same way...finally, after a generation of losing, they finally got it. We can only hope that Jed figures it out---these guys can always raise money, if they really want to.

I'll be back to respond in a little.

Originally posted by Lifer:

Originally posted by JustMike:
In just a few short days, we all went from being happy that football is back, to bickering over the front office and this free agency. But instead of seeing this as a failure as some have suggested, maybe this is the plan.
Maybe this teams personel is very much all wrong for the kind of team Harbaugh and co. are wanting to build. We have had nearly a decade of horrible to mediocre football, instead of trying to build little by little and trying to turn a group of players 180 degrees, why not blow it up and build from scratch?
If you think about it, it actually makes a lot of the moves, thus far, add up:
Alex Smith: better a vet with little chance to succeed take the lumps during the mass transition.
Releasing some vets: out with the old and in with youth, to be trained in their earliest stages of there careers.

This is my thinking, it may be flawed or right on the money. I think its a risky move and I am for it, I would rather this team set itself up for a long stretch of success than a inconsistant run with lots of bumps in the road.

What do you people think?

I've been watching the York-49ers flounder for 11 years now. I used to see see them do these inexplicable things and think "They must know what they're doing, right? There's got to be some larger plan and grand strategy that they're working on... right?"

Nope. They're just floundering. Like they always do. Year, after year, after year.

They make some good moves from time to time. But they always follow the good moves with some brainless inaction that robs all the momentum. It's always one step forward, two steps back. The 49ers were close this year. They had a reasonably talented roster and they hired a great young coach. On defense especially, they were only a couple players away from being legitimate. So what do they do? Gut the defense. Jettison 4-5 starters (Clements, Lawson, Spikes, Franklin, maybe Goldson) while only having a plan to replace two of them (Bowman and Sopoaga), then sit back and hope that things will magically work out somehow. Then they have the gall to get in front of the microphones and say "We're gonna be patient. We believe in building through the draft."

Well, it's been 10 years and they still haven't built anything. Probably the best RB in 49er history is nearing the end of his career and he's never seen the playoffs; never had a winning season. The same fate is looming for Willis and Vernon Davis: squandering the best years of their football playing lives waiting for the York-49ers to get it all together.

Building a football team is not necessarily a matter of patience. There is a time for patience; and there is a time for urgency. Player careers are short. When you get a good core of good players, like we have (had) on defense, there's only a small window of opportunity.

Thank you.

Anyone who thinks that this free agency period is a "calculated decisions" is simply getting paid by the Yorkies. There's no other explanation I can think of.

Originally posted by TheGoldDiggerrrr:
First overall pick for andrew luck will be cheap next season!

ding ding ding

We are tanking this season on purpose...that is the only thing that gives me hope...which is pathetic. The Eagles just threw tons of money at like 5 pro bowlers...how is it that we don't have money to do this?

There has to be other reasons why our front office is anemic.