What was the knock on Montana?

Originally posted by WINiner:

Originally posted by BubbaParisMVP:

Originally posted by blizzuntz:
He was not s**t until Walsh groomed him

Yes, indeed, the poor fellow was booed out of Notre Dame.

Let's not conflate facts with myths.

In the NFL, you frequently see good QBs and you frequently see good coaches. To get both together is special. To get both together, with a system that Walsh learned in San Diego and experimented with at Stanford and then was able to implement through Montana, that was once in a century lucky.

But the point remains: No Montana, no Walsh.

That's why it didn't work in San Diego.

Walsh did not learn the system in SD, he worked there for 1 year as an assistant in 76. He learned the system under Paul Brown in Cinci and later refined it in SF.

Didn't he help Foutes with some of those career passing yards...?

Quote:
When the 1979 draft was approaching and the Cotton Bowl glow had worn off, the NFL scouts got together and started putting down numbers for Montana. One combine gave him a grade of 6 1/2 with 9 being the top of the scale and 1 the bottom. Washington State's Jack Thompson got the highest grade among the quarterbacks -- 8. Montana's arm was rated a 6, or average. "He can thread the needle," the report said, "but usually goes with his primary receiver and forces the ball to him even when he's in a crowd. He's a gutty, gambling, cocky type. Doesn't have great tools but could eventually start."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/centurys_best/news/1999/08/13/flashback_montana2

Originally posted by qnnhan7:

Originally posted by WINiner:

Originally posted by BubbaParisMVP:

Originally posted by blizzuntz:
He was not s**t until Walsh groomed him

Yes, indeed, the poor fellow was booed out of Notre Dame.

Let's not conflate facts with myths.

In the NFL, you frequently see good QBs and you frequently see good coaches. To get both together is special. To get both together, with a system that Walsh learned in San Diego and experimented with at Stanford and then was able to implement through Montana, that was once in a century lucky.

But the point remains: No Montana, no Walsh.

That's why it didn't work in San Diego.

Walsh did not learn the system in SD, he worked there for 1 year as an assistant in 76. He learned the system under Paul Brown in Cinci and later refined it in SF.

Didn't he help Foutes with some of those career passing yards...?

Quote:
After not getting the Cincinnati job, Walsh worked with future Hall of Fame quarterback Dan Fouts as an assistant with the San Diego Chargers for one season and then went to the collegiate ranks with Stanford.

USA today article

Quote:
When Brown retired as head coach following the 1975 season and appointed Bill "Tiger" Johnson as his successor, Walsh resigned and served as an assistant coach for Tommy Prothro with the San Diego Chargers in 1976. In a 2006 interview,[4] Walsh claimed that during his tenure with the Bengals, Brown "worked against my candidacy" to be a head coach anywhere in the league. "All the way through I had opportunities, and I never knew about them," Walsh said. "And then when I left him, he called whoever he thought was necessary to keep me out of the NFL."
In 1977, Walsh was hired as the head coach at Stanford where he stayed for two seasons.

Wiki

When a qb has an average arm and physically average, look for the gutsy competitor. Walsh recognized it in Montana. He also witnessed Garcia against his Stanford team. Brought him over from Canada. Garcia has the ugliest passes ever thrown by a Niner qb, but he always find a way to get it to his WR.

We should look for that in the draft. When the talent is the same, look for the competitor. Then coach him to make plays for you when things breakdown, but not INT.

Walsh always talked about Montana's footwork. I remember him telling the story of the first time he scouted Montana in person. He said that as soon he saw how agile and light on his feet Joe was, he knew he'd found the guy to run his system.

Walsh wasn't looking for the prototypical QB, circa 1979. He was looking for a guy that fit his system. Arm strength, height and weight were not so important as agility, decision making, and accuracy. Walsh found a guy in the middle rounds that fit his system, then molded him into the perfect WCO quarterback.

Originally posted by Wubbie:
I COULD be wrong, but I don't believe accuracy and mobility were considered AS important back in the day.

You are right. At that time a QB was ment to stand in the pocket And throw. The likes of Moon and Cunningham changed that thinking a bit. It is just like anything else the game evolved. But in the end I would still want a true Qb and not a scrambler

Originally posted by BubbaParisMVP:

Originally posted by blizzuntz:
He was not s**t until Walsh groomed him

Yes, indeed, the poor fellow was booed out of Notre Dame.

Let's not conflate facts with myths.

In the NFL, you frequently see good QBs and you frequently see good coaches. To get both together is special. To get both together, with a system that Walsh learned in San Diego and experimented with at Stanford and then was able to implement through Montana, that was once in a century lucky.

But the point remains: No Montana, no Walsh.

That's why it didn't work in San Diego.

San Diego? Don't you mean Cincinatti?

Originally posted by Jcool:

Quote:
When the 1979 draft was approaching and the Cotton Bowl glow had worn off, the NFL scouts got together and started putting down numbers for Montana. One combine gave him a grade of 6 1/2 with 9 being the top of the scale and 1 the bottom. Washington State's Jack Thompson got the highest grade among the quarterbacks -- 8. Montana's arm was rated a 6, or average. "He can thread the needle," the report said, "but usually goes with his primary receiver and forces the ball to him even when he's in a crowd. He's a gutty, gambling, cocky type. Doesn't have great tools but could eventually start."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/centurys_best/news/1999/08/13/flashback_montana2

Well according to this article, I think a great deal of Montana's success was mostly due to being groomed to play quarterback ever since he could walk. Good stuff, nice find.

Teams need to figure out not to draft "The Next Joe Montana" when they don't have "The Next Bill Walsh" to turn him into Montana.

Joe Montana accomplished those things. Joe Montana won four Superbowls... you can't take anything away from him, but every great player needs someone to make him that great player. Nobody does it on their own.

Jake Plummer and Alex Smith are examples of players who could have been great, but teams felt they could throw these guys on the field and they'd be great. If the 49ers had drafted Jake Plummer with the staff they had at the time (as Bill Walsh had suggested), or the Cardinals had drafted Alex Smith with the staff they had, I think both would have been successful pros. For the record, Matt Leinart made his own bed, I don't blame the Cards for his failure.

Very late in his career, Plummer hooked up with Shannahan and did quite well for a while... but it was too late. I see the same future for Smith... he'll go somewhere with a coach that will get the most out of him, he'll have a couple of solid years, but he'll come down to earth because it's just too late.

Originally posted by Lifer:
Walsh always talked about Montana's footwork. I remember him telling the story of the first time he scouted Montana in person. He said that as soon he saw how agile and light on his feet Joe was, he knew he'd found the guy to run his system.

Walsh wasn't looking for the prototypical QB, circa 1979. He was looking for a guy that fit his system. Arm strength, height and weight were not so important as agility, decision making, and accuracy. Walsh found a guy in the middle rounds that fit his system, then molded him into the perfect WCO quarterback.

Yes, and Walsh also talked about the intangibles of greatness, being able to make that right decision under pressure. Montana won a state championship for basketball in HS and then a national championship in football at ND. He was a parade all american, recruited in both sports, and just seemed to enjoy the tight times--when many people would get nervous and fold he was at his best.

I think the biggest thing was the footwork. Same thing Walsh raved about with Tom Brady (Walsh predicted Brady's greatness when he was in his first season starting after Bledsoe got injured).

"You've gotta be able to move and throw, throw from odd positions. Move and throw, move and throw, with accuracy. Joe Montana had that, Steve Young had that, Tom has that."

He said similar things about Jake Plummer, but I think with Plummer it was more about that competitiveness that reminded him of Montana. If you remember, Plummer had a ridiculous number of comeback victories considering how bad a team he was on. Of course, he was usually the reason they were down... but you wanted to put the game out of reach early so Plummer didn't get a chance for a two minute drill, because he'd suddenly become unstoppable.

Just saw Montana to Clark (The Catch) was #1 on the "NFL conference championship game best moments"

Size, in general. Not height, but weight, durability, arm strength. He just didn't seem like the physical specimen teams were looking for in a first round QB.

Also, he had limited experience, He road the pine for his first year or two in college.

So, he was kind of this scrawny guy, without a full 4 years of starting, whose success was often more credited to the team/system than to his own talents.

He only completed 52% of his passes in college.

Originally posted by WillistheWall:
He only completed 52% of his passes in college.

Your right, his stats were not great at all. Going off his stats I would have thought Walsh was crazy for drafting him.