Negativity doesn't help create a winning mentality.

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:

Originally posted by D_Niner:
Wouldn't this be great. No accountability for my failures because everyone is so afraid to think a negative thought. I can see all my failures just drifting away. No need to think about them or do anything about them because that would make me think bad thoughts. Break out the patchouli and incense cause it's 4:20 somewhere, right?

Sarcasm aside, This is some stupid crap. Our team is not going to get better until someone points out what they are doing wrong and they get a chance to improve upon it. So I'll counter your theory with another Theory...

Skinner's reinforcement theory simply states those employees' behaviors that lead to positive outcomes will be repeated and behaviors that lead to negative outcomes will not be repeated (Skinner, 1953). Managers should positively reinforce employee behaviors that lead to positive outcomes. Managers should negatively reinforce employee behavior that leads to negative outcomes.

Do you know what negative reinforcement is? It means to take away something negative to improve the overall behavior, or outcome. In this case, that could mean giving up the rude and unproductive behavior of hating a QB for personal reasons.

Well, you obviously don't know what Negative reinforcement is. What you describe above is punishment. Negative reinforcement is more cause and effect based. You throw a pick-6 and the negative reinforcement is that you've just cost your team the game. Or you continue to hold the D-linemen (#77) and the fans get pissed at you and make a low-lights video of your play... The punishment is getting benched for throwing too many pick-6s or getting cut for not being able to block...

Don't take my word for it, look it up

I work in a group home with children who suffer from behavioral problems and negative reinforcement is a technique we use often. I've known what it is for about ten years now. If a child perceives having to eat broccoli for dinner as negative, them having to eat broccoli can be excused if it is believed that it will help them improve their behavior. Removing the perceived negative element, is negative reinforcement.

Well shoot. If were throwing resumes out there. I have Degree in Business Management with a Minor in Electronic Technologies. I've been teaching post graduate technology classes for the past 10 years and have taught thousands of students in that time. I'm considered to be the top instructor at the company I work for and mentor several other instructors on how to improve their training courses. I have been asked several times, by local Universities, to develop and teach courses on subjects ranging from How to Teach to Adults to Mentorship.

I put all this out there to simply say that teaching children is much different that Adults. Please look up the study of Andragogy if you care to learn more. Plain and simple, what you described the first time is clearly punishment. What you described the second time is positive reinforcement of a negative behavior (Not saying you should do this; but, negative reinforcement would be allowing the child to not eat the broccoli but at the same time not eat anything else. The hunger that sets in from not eating a meal or two would be the negative reinforcement).

[ Edited by D_Niner on Aug 17, 2010 at 14:29:13 ]

I heard that if we all say Josh Morgan is super fast he'll run a 4.2 forty tomorrow. God d*mn your guys negativity.

[ Edited by tjd808185 on Aug 17, 2010 at 14:14:59 ]

Originally posted by tjd808185:
I heard that if we all say Josh Morgan is super fast he'll run a 4.2 forty tomorrow. God d*mn your guys negativity.

Josh Morgan

Originally posted by wolfpack52:
This is gay even by zone standards

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:

Originally posted by djfullshred:
This sure would be a boring forum if we should keep any negative opinions to ourselves...everyone piling on positive comments on every subject? Sounds like a circle jerk for overly sensitve folks.

As for Alex Smith, or any athlete for that matter...if we are talking about amatuer sports, I don't think it is right to project negativity on players.

For a profesional making millions of dollars, I would think the player is in the wrong line of business if they let comments from fans get in their head, and affect how they play. Time for an upgrade if you have this kind of player in a key starter position.

If you've played sports, at any level, you know a huge component is psychological. It happens to every player, it is part of being human. Just because you make a salary doesn't mean you're immune to suffering from mental errors.

Also, there is a difference between criticizing and being negative. If a player seems to lack effort, which is what I believe to be the case with Rachal, I think it is fair to comment on that. But bashing someone for the sake of bashing them, which is a habit many fans of this team have developed, especially towards Alex Smith, is senseless and unproductive... and tiring...

You say the bashing is tiring...but is this topic about whether you don't like to read negativity, or that what people say actually affects how starters on a NFL team play?

I understand about human emotion, and even what it feels like to be criticized in a public performance (as a musician, not an athlete). But I still say that a professional that lets people's negativity affect their performance, is a lower tier worker that needs mentoring, and not a front line starter for your organization (whatver business you are in).

It is hard for me to feel sorry for a professional NFL player when they are criticized, because that is known to be part of the job before they sign up for it. You have to be very thick skinned for this kind of job, or GTFO like Ryan Leaf - who couldn't take it. But on the other side of the coin, I remember Steve Young got ripped mercilessly in Joe Montana's shadow...but he was very good, and very confident that he could play the game while all that was going on.

I'm impressed this thread is still intact on pg 4.

Originally posted by djfullshred:

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:

Originally posted by djfullshred:
This sure would be a boring forum if we should keep any negative opinions to ourselves...everyone piling on positive comments on every subject? Sounds like a circle jerk for overly sensitve folks.

As for Alex Smith, or any athlete for that matter...if we are talking about amatuer sports, I don't think it is right to project negativity on players.

For a profesional making millions of dollars, I would think the player is in the wrong line of business if they let comments from fans get in their head, and affect how they play. Time for an upgrade if you have this kind of player in a key starter position.

If you've played sports, at any level, you know a huge component is psychological. It happens to every player, it is part of being human. Just because you make a salary doesn't mean you're immune to suffering from mental errors.

Also, there is a difference between criticizing and being negative. If a player seems to lack effort, which is what I believe to be the case with Rachal, I think it is fair to comment on that. But bashing someone for the sake of bashing them, which is a habit many fans of this team have developed, especially towards Alex Smith, is senseless and unproductive... and tiring...

You say the bashing is tiring...but is this topic about whether you don't like to read negativity, or that what people say actually affects how starters on a NFL team play?

I understand about human emotion, and even what it feels like to be criticized in a public performance (as a musician, not an athlete). But I still say that a professional that lets people's negativity affect their performance, is a lower tier worker that needs mentoring, and not a front line starter for your organization (whatver business you are in).

It is hard for me to feel sorry for a professional NFL player when they are criticized, because that is known to be part of the job before they sign up for it. You have to be very thick skinned for this kind of job, or GTFO like Ryan Leaf - who couldn't take it. But on the other side of the coin, I remember Steve Young got ripped mercilessly in Joe Montana's shadow...but he was very good, and very confident that he could play the game while all that was going on.

That is the truth. In 91 there were more than a few people who argued Bono should be the #1. In 93, seeing Chiefs gear in the Bay Area was not uncommon. It took a long time (the Super Bowl win) for Steve to be fully embraced.

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:

Originally posted by D_Niner:
Wouldn't this be great. No accountability for my failures because everyone is so afraid to think a negative thought. I can see all my failures just drifting away. No need to think about them or do anything about them because that would make me think bad thoughts. Break out the patchouli and incense cause it's 4:20 somewhere, right?

Sarcasm aside, This is some stupid crap. Our team is not going to get better until someone points out what they are doing wrong and they get a chance to improve upon it. So I'll counter your theory with another Theory...

Skinner's reinforcement theory simply states those employees' behaviors that lead to positive outcomes will be repeated and behaviors that lead to negative outcomes will not be repeated (Skinner, 1953). Managers should positively reinforce employee behaviors that lead to positive outcomes. Managers should negatively reinforce employee behavior that leads to negative outcomes.

Do you know what negative reinforcement is? It means to take away something negative to improve the overall behavior, or outcome. In this case, that could mean giving up the rude and unproductive behavior of hating a QB for personal reasons.

Well, you obviously don't know what Negative reinforcement is. What you describe above is punishment. Negative reinforcement is more cause and effect based. You throw a pick-6 and the negative reinforcement is that you've just cost your team the game. Or you continue to hold the D-linemen (#77) and the fans get pissed at you and make a low-lights video of your play... The punishment is getting benched for throwing too many pick-6s or getting cut for not being able to block...

Don't take my word for it, look it up

I work in a group home with children who suffer from behavioral problems and negative reinforcement is a technique we use often. I've known what it is for about ten years now. If a child perceives having to eat broccoli for dinner as negative, them having to eat broccoli can be excused if it is believed that it will help them improve their behavior. Removing the perceived negative element, is negative reinforcement.

Well shoot. If were throwing resumes out there. I have Degree in Business Management with a Minor in Electronic Technologies. I've been teaching post graduate technology classes for the past 10 years and have taught thousands of students in that time. I'm considered to be the top instructor at the company I work for and mentor several other instructors on how to improve their training courses. I have been asked several times, by local Universities, to develop and teach courses on subjects ranging from How to Teach to Adults to Mentorship.

I put all this out there to simply say that teaching children is much different that Adults. Please look up the study of Andragogy if you care to learn more. Plain and simple, what you described the first time is clearly punishment. What you described the second time is positive reinforcement of a negative behavior (Not saying you should do this; but, negative reinforcement would be allowing the child to not eat the broccoli but at the same time not eat anything else. The hunger that sets in from not eating a meal or two would be the negative reinforcement).

I'm not really interested in comparing resumes. Honestly, what is the point? But I do want to make two points.

1. My first definition was not in any way shape or form, punishment.
2. Here is the clinical definition of negative reinforcement.

Negative Reinforcement - Similar to the concept of a reward. Essentially, this is when something negative is removed from a person’s experience as a way to increase the likelihood of a behavior happening again. For example, if a child studies hard for a test and the parent rewards the child by not making him do chores, it is likely that this good studying behavior will recur. This is often used as part of cognitive-behavioral therapy

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:

Originally posted by SonocoNinerFan:

Originally posted by 49erRider:

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:
There is a book you can checkout at the library published by a German scientist called Nanna. It is about the power of positivity. If you can believe it, his research is documented in the molecules that makeup plant-life. This scientist found that talking positively to plants, improves their overall wellbeing. A quick web search can lead you to more about this topic if you're interested, but the focus of this thread is on some of the fans of this team.

Whether you're a Smith supporter, a Smith doubter, a Smith hater, or Alex Smith himself, we all know he has a lot to prove and hasn't delivered what was expected of him when he was drafted in 2005. As fans, we are all hoping for the best. And as fans, we all know that if he doesn't deliver this season, he won't be here in the future. So what is left to talk about? Nothing? Do you agree? Okay, lets move on. And further, if we don't have anything positive to say or something of new and interest, then lets keep it to ourselves... for the benefit of the team. Honestly, do you know how ridiculous it looks to crucify Smith over one bad pass in Week 1 of the preseason, after he is coming off of the best season of his career and helping the 49ers earn their best outcome to a season in nearly a decade?

Just as Smith is treated poorly by some 49er fans, so are Raye, Singletary, and others. Again, give it a rest. Fans of the team know the deal and they know what the positives and strengths are of these coaches and players, and they know what the shortcomings are. So many fans seem to take issue with the negatives while never weighing the positives. Whenever you're evaluating something, you have to weigh the good and the bad. As fans we know the team is improving and heading in a better direction than when it was being lead by Nolan and McCloughan. The team chemistry is better, the talent is better, and we're now recruiting quality veterans such as Brian Westbrook. Do you think Brian Westbrook would have chosen to play for the 2005 49ers over the 2010 49ers?

The division is ours to lose people! What is with "the sky is falling" mentality? What are we so afraid of? Instead of believing that you know the future, why don't you sit back, relax, and see what actually transpires? Who benefits from bashing a player over a bad play? If someone knows, I'm listening. What I notice is that those who bash Smith never want to give him his due when he does something positive. If you're one of those people, it is time to look in the mirror and ask yourself why you're behaving in such a way.

If you want Smith to do better, be positive. It is well known that a QB benefits from confidence, and confidence can be instilled in a person by knowing that others have confidence in them. We've seen this guy toss 3 TDs in a half, so we know he has the ability. It is a mental battle for Smith at this point, and if we want to help him with that, we need to be in his corner. And remember, supporting Smith doesn't mean you prefer his skill set over Carr's or Davis's, it just means you're hoping he succeeds so that the team succeeds.

That's all fine and good, but what does a "winning mentality" amongst fans have to do with the way the team performs? None of the players, including Smith, come here to read people criticizing them.

In other words, not commenting on somebody's mistakes is not going to help the team in any way.

Exactly right . . . aside from making noise in our own stadium to make things difficult for the visiting offense, fans have practically zero impact on the players performances.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go sing to my Tomato plants.

Are you certain about what you said? There are theories that argue otherwise, but they're all subject to debate. I think we all know from personal experience that being in a positive environment can be beneficial for our own behavior.

Again, what does a positive environment on the 49erswebzone have to do with how the team will play? None of the players post here, it's highly unlikely any of them browse the threads to see if anyone is saying anything negative, hell, most players don't even read the newspapers to see what's being said about them - good or bad. There's no way "negative" discussions will lead to the demise of our team and there's no way staying positive as fans sitting on our asses in front of our computers is going to help the team in any way.

This, to me, is an attempt to get people to stop talking about the issues surrounding this team and it's players - namely Alex Smith. In case you haven't noticed, we haven't exactly been Super Bowl contenders for the past 7 years and, believe it or not, our team and it's players DO have flaws. Being "positive" and not talking about them is not going to change that.

In other words, us acting like a bunch of blithering homers and ignoring anything bad about our team is not going to help them. Period.

Originally posted by ktate14:
LOL..u know I have not posted here in a while and part of that was because how ridiculous and negative some of you fans can be....but after seeing this thread i had to come in and just say a few words....we were preaching this same message a few years ago and if I remember correctly it didn't go over well with alot of zoners...not to my surprise ofcourse....I think fans just prefer to be negative..makes them feel better or something....even if they knew their negativity was part of a greater collective measure keeping the niners down they still would be negative...it's just somewhat part of this society....with that...I'm gone...till next time i see a thread worth commenting in....

Actually, the fact that many of our fans are well-informed has to do with the negative comments and observations. We don't sit around turning a blind eye to everything bad that our team has to deal with. There are some people on here who always stay positive and come to the rescue of crappy players when they're being discussed, but not everyone is blinded by optimism.

Originally posted by 49erRider:

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:

Originally posted by SonocoNinerFan:

Originally posted by 49erRider:

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:
There is a book you can checkout at the library published by a German scientist called Nanna. It is about the power of positivity. If you can believe it, his research is documented in the molecules that makeup plant-life. This scientist found that talking positively to plants, improves their overall wellbeing. A quick web search can lead you to more about this topic if you're interested, but the focus of this thread is on some of the fans of this team.

Whether you're a Smith supporter, a Smith doubter, a Smith hater, or Alex Smith himself, we all know he has a lot to prove and hasn't delivered what was expected of him when he was drafted in 2005. As fans, we are all hoping for the best. And as fans, we all know that if he doesn't deliver this season, he won't be here in the future. So what is left to talk about? Nothing? Do you agree? Okay, lets move on. And further, if we don't have anything positive to say or something of new and interest, then lets keep it to ourselves... for the benefit of the team. Honestly, do you know how ridiculous it looks to crucify Smith over one bad pass in Week 1 of the preseason, after he is coming off of the best season of his career and helping the 49ers earn their best outcome to a season in nearly a decade?

Just as Smith is treated poorly by some 49er fans, so are Raye, Singletary, and others. Again, give it a rest. Fans of the team know the deal and they know what the positives and strengths are of these coaches and players, and they know what the shortcomings are. So many fans seem to take issue with the negatives while never weighing the positives. Whenever you're evaluating something, you have to weigh the good and the bad. As fans we know the team is improving and heading in a better direction than when it was being lead by Nolan and McCloughan. The team chemistry is better, the talent is better, and we're now recruiting quality veterans such as Brian Westbrook. Do you think Brian Westbrook would have chosen to play for the 2005 49ers over the 2010 49ers?

The division is ours to lose people! What is with "the sky is falling" mentality? What are we so afraid of? Instead of believing that you know the future, why don't you sit back, relax, and see what actually transpires? Who benefits from bashing a player over a bad play? If someone knows, I'm listening. What I notice is that those who bash Smith never want to give him his due when he does something positive. If you're one of those people, it is time to look in the mirror and ask yourself why you're behaving in such a way.

If you want Smith to do better, be positive. It is well known that a QB benefits from confidence, and confidence can be instilled in a person by knowing that others have confidence in them. We've seen this guy toss 3 TDs in a half, so we know he has the ability. It is a mental battle for Smith at this point, and if we want to help him with that, we need to be in his corner. And remember, supporting Smith doesn't mean you prefer his skill set over Carr's or Davis's, it just means you're hoping he succeeds so that the team succeeds.

That's all fine and good, but what does a "winning mentality" amongst fans have to do with the way the team performs? None of the players, including Smith, come here to read people criticizing them.

In other words, not commenting on somebody's mistakes is not going to help the team in any way.

Exactly right . . . aside from making noise in our own stadium to make things difficult for the visiting offense, fans have practically zero impact on the players performances.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go sing to my Tomato plants.

Are you certain about what you said? There are theories that argue otherwise, but they're all subject to debate. I think we all know from personal experience that being in a positive environment can be beneficial for our own behavior.

Again, what does a positive environment on the 49erswebzone have to do with how the team will play? None of the players post here, it's highly unlikely any of them browse the threads to see if anyone is saying anything negative, hell, most players don't even read the newspapers to see what's being said about them - good or bad. There's no way "negative" discussions will lead to the demise of our team and there's no way staying positive as fans sitting on our asses in front of our computers is going to help the team in any way.

This, to me, is an attempt to get people to stop talking about the issues surrounding this team and it's players - namely Alex Smith. In case you haven't noticed, we haven't exactly been Super Bowl contenders for the past 7 years and, believe it or not, our team and it's players DO have flaws. Being "positive" and not talking about them is not going to change that.

In other words, us acting like a bunch of blithering homers and ignoring anything bad about our team is not going to help them. Period.

Thank you for helping me realize something. I am not just talking about what is said in the webzone. I am talking about 49er fans in general. What you hear in here, you hear at stadiums, in bars, on other message boards. It is contagious.

Check out this Ted Ginn article.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/id/21202/ted-ginn-jr-seeking-rebirth-with-49ers

Do you think Ted Ginn is alone? This is the era of the internet, more people than not are on it. I think if we support our players and encourage them to play their best, it can only prove to be beneficial. Maybe I'm wrong.

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:

Originally posted by D_Niner:
Wouldn't this be great. No accountability for my failures because everyone is so afraid to think a negative thought. I can see all my failures just drifting away. No need to think about them or do anything about them because that would make me think bad thoughts. Break out the patchouli and incense cause it's 4:20 somewhere, right?

Sarcasm aside, This is some stupid crap. Our team is not going to get better until someone points out what they are doing wrong and they get a chance to improve upon it. So I'll counter your theory with another Theory...

Skinner's reinforcement theory simply states those employees' behaviors that lead to positive outcomes will be repeated and behaviors that lead to negative outcomes will not be repeated (Skinner, 1953). Managers should positively reinforce employee behaviors that lead to positive outcomes. Managers should negatively reinforce employee behavior that leads to negative outcomes.

Do you know what negative reinforcement is? It means to take away something negative to improve the overall behavior, or outcome. In this case, that could mean giving up the rude and unproductive behavior of hating a QB for personal reasons.

Well, you obviously don't know what Negative reinforcement is. What you describe above is punishment. Negative reinforcement is more cause and effect based. You throw a pick-6 and the negative reinforcement is that you've just cost your team the game. Or you continue to hold the D-linemen (#77) and the fans get pissed at you and make a low-lights video of your play... The punishment is getting benched for throwing too many pick-6s or getting cut for not being able to block...

Don't take my word for it, look it up

I work in a group home with children who suffer from behavioral problems and negative reinforcement is a technique we use often. I've known what it is for about ten years now. If a child perceives having to eat broccoli for dinner as negative, them having to eat broccoli can be excused if it is believed that it will help them improve their behavior. Removing the perceived negative element, is negative reinforcement.

Well shoot. If were throwing resumes out there. I have Degree in Business Management with a Minor in Electronic Technologies. I've been teaching post graduate technology classes for the past 10 years and have taught thousands of students in that time. I'm considered to be the top instructor at the company I work for and mentor several other instructors on how to improve their training courses. I have been asked several times, by local Universities, to develop and teach courses on subjects ranging from How to Teach to Adults to Mentorship.

I put all this out there to simply say that teaching children is much different that Adults. Please look up the study of Andragogy if you care to learn more. Plain and simple, what you described the first time is clearly punishment. What you described the second time is positive reinforcement of a negative behavior (Not saying you should do this; but, negative reinforcement would be allowing the child to not eat the broccoli but at the same time not eat anything else. The hunger that sets in from not eating a meal or two would be the negative reinforcement).

I'm not really interested in comparing resumes. Honestly, what is the point? But I do want to make two points.

1. My first definition was not in any way shape or form, punishment.
2. Here is the clinical definition of negative reinforcement.

Negative Reinforcement - Similar to the concept of a reward. Essentially, this is when something negative is removed from a person’s experience as a way to increase the likelihood of a behavior happening again. For example, if a child studies hard for a test and the parent rewards the child by not making him do chores, it is likely that this good studying behavior will recur. This is often used as part of cognitive-behavioral therapy

Ok, I get what's going on here (and thanks for posting the definition you were using, it helped clear this up). You're talking about Negative (as in Subtractive) reinforcement and I'm talking more Negative Consequence as Reinforcement. So yes, removing chores for a child that spends extra time studying is Subtractive Reinforcement. Were just using slightly different terminology that changes the entire context of what were taking about.

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:
Thank you for helping me realize something. I am not just talking about what is said in the webzone. I am talking about 49er fans in general. What you hear in here, you hear at stadiums, in bars, on other message boards. It is contagious.

Check out this Ted Ginn article.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/id/21202/ted-ginn-jr-seeking-rebirth-with-49ers

Do you think Ted Ginn is alone? This is the era of the internet, more people than not are on it. I think if we support our players and encourage them to play their best, it can only prove to be beneficial. Maybe I'm wrong.

The only way ignoring negatives about a player would help them is if you actually knew the player and only mentioned the good things they did. Even then, it's not always beneficial to the player - look at Taylor Mays. The people at the stadiums, the bars or other message boards don't know these guys and the things that are being said rarely get to the player's ears (or in this case, eyes). During open TCs or mini camps, nobody is talking sh*t to Alex Smith or any other player (with the exception of Kwame Harris when he was here) so the negatives being discussed about him aren't going to affect his play. I'm willing to bet that most of the negatives Smith has heard are from commentators, writers and other people paid to voice their opinions, not by 49er fans.

Like I said, as fans, turning a blind eye to the bad things that these players do is not going to help the team. At the same time, praising everything they do will not help, either.

Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves?

So if all of us gathered around and started a circle jerk fest in honor of Alex Smith he will actually start showing some competence? You know I was always skeptical about this whole transcendental meditation thing. But after reading this post I am becoming a believer. Maybe we can tunnel our positive thoughts and feelings through the vortex and onto the football field. But we should keep this a secret. If fans of other teams found out they will do the same thing.